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Blood and Slaughter wrote:

How are you running this list, anyway? 3 Stormravens at around 600+ points with the 1100 points deploying in them (as quoted from your example) leaves you 300 points in a 2000 point game to spare to deploy forces which need to start on the board (remember, 50% of your army needs to be deployed). That's 300 points for 12 (1+1+10 from your above example) models that you need to deploy, which could very easily get wiped off the table (and thus cause you the game by Turn 2 from not having models on the board) without being properly set up/kitted out since they'll be receiving the full brunt of your opponent's shooting in Turn 1.

I'm aware of deployment rules and it's actually far from easy for the units deployed to get wiped off the board (unless you play with less than the regulation d3 terrain pieces per 2x2 square of course).

You have to bear in mind that specific deployment varies by terrain positioning,mission, whether I go first or second, night-fighting or lack thereof and the deployment type.

But crudely everytthing starts on the board in a way that will tend to deny the enemy decent los, bar the ravens and sometimes the lone paladin.

I never claimed to run the paladins in the ravens and personally I'd never do so now due to the absolute catastrophe that would result from one being shot down whilst zooming full of troops.

I also think that in at three of the missions (Relic, Purge, The Scouring), it's usually best not to combat squad the paladins anyway), in the Scouring it depends on the enemy list whether I do or not and ditto Emperor's Will. Only Crusade really needs them to be squadded, I find.

Draigo of course is an absolute bargain for his points, especially compared to a normal GM (level 2 psyker, +1WS, +1S, +1T and Eternal Warrior, plus Fearless and scoring paladins is easily worth more than 100 points in terms of what you get for the money) and the more so when run witha large paladin unit. He was great in 5th, he's greater (but in a rather less killy way) in 6th.

How are you meeting your force org requirements with those lists you have in your sig?

Just smaller groups of Paladins?

I prefer not to take less than 5, since you have to have that many to get psycannons. Stormbolters aren't nearly as effective I've found, although with psybolts they are better; I'd rarely take that on less than a 10 man squad.

I like everything on the board having a 2+ save

Like I've said before, I think flyers are really going to be screwing up build diversity until more skyfire weapons hit the table; you're basically silly not to try and take one. Personally I'd rather mess around with more DKs and Landraiders.

I run a solo paladin at 2000 and two at 1500. It's actually quite surprising to me how useful they are in 6th. The weakness is that they can give an easy First Blood (which is why I sometimes reserve them) but I've twice had one of these chaps destroy an entire Guard veterans squad on his own with Holocaust then a charge. Occasionally I've Outflanked him(them) via GS, depending where the objectives are, but my experiments with deepstriking have been very mixed (though one did tie up an assault squad (going for the 'easy' First Blood) for three turns before dying, which prevented them from playimng any other useful part in the game).

I never liked solo paladins in 5th but to bne fair never really tried them. They're quit eeasy to hide on a 'home' objective and so long as I make sure I get First Blood, they're not very painful to lose. sometimes I find the enemy doesn't fire at them much at all if First Blood is gone because they're nowhere near as obvious a threat as the othe runits.

I'd emphasise that my list is still fairly experimental, but I find it surprisingly robust and very good indeed at both Relic and Purge missions. Really though, it's a 2000 point army, I think, at 1500 a lot of the utility is lost due to the main paladin squad not having banner and apothecary (who is now well worth his points for a ten man squad that features Draigo).

Edit: I'd also add that one of my 2000 point wins was against a list best described as semi-competitive and one of my 1500 point wins also. Given everyone's finding their feet with 6th, I'm making no great claims for it, but it is much better than certain internet pundits predicted it would be . . .

A couple paladins to babysit an objective probably isn't a bad idea, and only 110 points. Pretty easy to hide as well.

Yeah. That's the best bit of the 1500 list, there are two and they can support each other (and support the dreadnought who's generally lurking thereabouts too). At 2000 the lone paladin is a bit, well, lonely and he's yet to survive a game (but he's also yet to give away First Blood). He's also drawn fire that (in my opinion) would have been better directed at the big squad.

How does a culexis assassins etherium apply when manning a gun emplacement? I don't want to waste my Vindicare on the quad gun, but I love having a bs8 on it... Would the eversor be a better choice?

Given both buildings and the Aegis emplaced guns can be targeted specifically, I'd say the Etherium has no effect on shots laucnched at either an Aegis Line emplaced weapon ora fortification containing Culexus.

I do, however, think you are correct, either Culexus or Eversor would be good for manning emplaced weapons, though neithe ris quite as good as the Vindicare because that gentleman has Deadshot, which means he can allocate all the wounds caused, which the others may not.

With the nerfs in power weapons, I've found the deathstar CC build to be less powerful now, so I used the points for a shooty henchmen list. I'm swapping out one of my Jokaero + Acolyte henchmen squads for a Psyker + Acolyte squad now, though. I'll see if I can find someone to play that list against tomorrow and let you guys know how it goes.

actually with the DCA's being able to wield 2 power weapons, you get around the whole power weapon restrictions and can still get AP1 or AP3 and in general, still slaughter just about eveything they touch. Just put an axe + sword on the model and you get to strike with whatever weapon you want.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So for you guys running a giant 10 man Paladin squad all kitted out with Draigo, what are you running for your other troop choice?

Nobz in a trukk and a 10 man unit of shoota boyz.

...
...

I tend to run 2 5 man paladin squads, but I'd rather run a single 10 man to give them other stuff, like psybolts, banner, might actually be tempted to run Apoth now that FNP affects everything too.

Honestly, I don't think that an apothecary is worth it. I never took one in 5th edition, and although there were times that I suffered for it, it was never an auto-take for me then, and now it's barely even on the radar.

FNP seems quite a bit better now considering it works against everything except instant-death. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes; the only time I'd ever use it would be in a 10 man squad though.

Thoughts about banner? Worth it?

The thing with Paladins and Feel no Pain is that they don't really need it that badly anymore. You took it originally because it could reliably stop the occasional small-arm wound that got through (and in the occasion you rolled double 1s, it saved lives). But with the reliability of it nerfed, it's lost that edge (I mean, it's good, but not 75 points and a stormbolter good).
Sure, it's improved against non-ID AP1 and 2 weaponry, but Paladins were never scared of that anyway. It always came in low enough volumes that you could easily put it away with little worry, and 6th edition does nothing to change this.

On the other hand, the S8+ weaponry, the stuff that would actually benefit Paladins to have a FNP save against, continues to go without any benefits against (and for good reason).

Ork Nobz still need the FNP because it gives them the additional layer of defense that they desperately need, but it does very little for Paladins that their impressive stat lines and armour don't already do for them. In my Paladin lists, I'm always struggling for points, and a redundancy like that just isn't going to be consistently worth taking.

Brotherhood Banners, on the other hand, are fantastic and always worth taking in a Paladinstar. Always.

I dunno, I'm pretty talented at rolling 1's.

Draigo lost 3 wounds on 3 1s when all I needed was an armor save before :(

Will definitely try out the banner more often though, although recently haven't had much melee happening. It certainly looks cool.

The banner's +1 attack/model means it starts paying for itself in terms of attacks once you have 6 men in the unit, so for a ten man squad it's strange not to take one unless you really can't find the points anywhere or you intend to always combat squad (and even then if the banner's squad is running with Draigo, it's worth having.

But then there's the auto force weapon activation, which is actually very useful.

The apothecary was worthless in 5th where it took ludicrous amounts of BS4 S4 shots to remove a paladin from a squad.

Assuming BS4 shooters:

Without FNP you lose a paladin to every 36 S4 AP5 shots, with FNP it takes 54

Without FNP you lose a paladin to every 5-6 S7 AP2 shots, with FNP it takes 8 shots.

For Draigo it's even better.

Without FNP it takes 21-22 melta, plasma or lascannon shots to kill Draigo, with it takes 32-33 such shots. If you run an apothecary now Draigo is miles better than ever at taking big hits for the team.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:The banner's +1 attack/model means it starts paying for itself in terms of attacks once you have 6 men in the unit, so for a ten man squad it's strange not to take one unless you really can't find the points anywhere or you intend to always combat squad (and even then if the banner's squad is running with Draigo, it's worth having.

But then there's the auto force weapon activation, which is actually very useful.

The apothecary was worthless in 5th where it took ludicrous amounts of BS4 S4 shots to remove a paladin from a squad.

Assuming BS4 shooters:

Without FNP you lose a paladin to every 36 S4 AP5 shots, with FNP it takes 54

Without FNP you lose a paladin to every 5-6 S7 AP2 shots, with FNP it takes 8 shots.

For Draigo it's even better.

Without FNP it takes 21-22 melta, plasma or lascannon shots to kill Draigo, with it takes 32-33 such shots. If you run an apothecary now Draigo is miles better than ever at taking big hits for the team.

Totally forgot Draigo can basically take FNP against EVERYTHING, since he is T6.

Wow.

He's T5. S10 still denies him.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:He's T5. S10 still denies him.

Ah yea, I see that now.

Well, no FNP vs Railguns and Demo cannons I guess.


So, the Redeemer can only move 6" and actually fire both of its Flamestorm cannons :| I'm kinda sad. I've got the fancy GK Forgeworld kit on my Redeemer and would like to use it more. I guess most of the time you are only going to get one template down anyway on a group. Maybe next time I take a Landraider it won't get blown up by the first lascannon fired at it.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:He's T5. S10 still denies him.

He's inmune to instant death. He can still use FNP.

He's inmune to instant death. He can still use FNP.

there's some major discussions on this topic in YMDC and there are no clear winners or concensus yet. I'd explain it to your particular playing partner before assuming it to be so.

Frankly I always liked my 10m paladin blobs to get FNP. I don't buy one for my 5 man squads but usually 10man apophicary is worth it to me. The few times I've combat squad-ed them out, I perfer him casting that pie plate.

Don't forget that they have the holocaust power and someone has to cast it. For some reason I remember it as if you cast that you can't shoot normally so I'm not sure if that still applies in 6th but it's how we used to play it. Never did figure out if possible or not.

Are you allowed to shoot your storm bolter if you cast a psychic shooting attack?

Also on the topic of shooting attacks from infantry, psybolts for squads which I never took before seem like a much better investment this edition. Str 5 shots can potentially clip armor 11 fliers with some more glances. Also I tend to buy bigger squads now so it makes some better sense to take the upgrade. What do you guys think?

I'm not getting units with 5 guys now. 10 and psi ammo, and then getting combat squads or not, but the 10 guys with psi ammo are a must for me.

Are you allowed to shoot your storm bolter if you cast a psychic shooting attack?

No.

The apothecary, lacking a gun, is a good choice to chooose as the caster of holocaust (it being the paladin power where the caster is chosen rather than randomly selected). But of course using it does mean you then can't cast hammerhand or activate force weapons in the ensuing assault phase.

I quite often cast holocause with solo paladins now because I find they're quite often going to cause more casualties via that than hammerhand.

Statistically speaking psybolts started to become worth it in 5th when you had 5-6 stormbolter firers in a unit. As you say, with glances being worthwhile now, that's probably shifted downward a notch. it's certainly well worth it to get psybolts on ten man squads, except perhaps paladins where you'll likely have only 5 stormbolters shooting (apothecary and 4 psycannon making up the other half of the unit).

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

Are you allowed to shoot your storm bolter if you cast a psychic shooting attack?

No.

The apothecary, lacking a gun, is a good choice to chooose as the caster of holocaust (it being the paladin power where the caster is chosen rather than randomly selected). But of course using it does mean you then can't cast hammerhand or activate force weapons in the ensuing assault phase.

I quite often cast holocause with solo paladins now because I find they're quite often going to cause more casualties via that than hammerhand.

Statistically speaking psybolts started to become worth it in 5th when you had 5-6 stormbolter firers in a unit. As you say, with glances being worthwhile now, that's probably shifted downward a notch. it's certainly well worth it to get psybolts on ten man squads, except perhaps paladins where you'll likely have only 5 stormbolters shooting (apothecary and 4 psycannon making up the other half of the unit).

Very good points, I fogot about warp charge there too and the psycannons XD

I tended to buy them for a squad of assault oriented purifiers back in 5th who didn't take psycannons and had extra halberds/hammer and ran upfield with a Land raider or storm raven often with a liby. Hrm.. makes me wanna do that again.

Also good point about moving and the flamer templates for the redeemer. I forgot to put that in the first page. I'll edit it later when I get home.

------------------------------------

BTW just ran the numbers for a squad of 10, shooting 20 shots, you can get 38.66% of a wreck off on AV 11. If you are shooting at a Jink'ing skimmer, that's cut down to 18.13% wreck.

Vs shooting at a flier - 1.72% of a wreck, if they Jink, that's cut down to 0.57% wreck.

------------------------------------------------

Not very good odds :/

Bottom line though, good chance or at least decent of wrecking a rhino in a single round.

Just for comparison - for that 20 points, you can get say get 2 hunter killer missles for your anti-tank - and then get roughly 7.27% of a wreck for 2 shots with jink/5+ save. or 10.80% without a cover save.

Vs flier - 2.76% of wreck for those same 2 shots. Down to 1.84% to wreck with jink save.

Overall, pretty decent investment for a 20 point investment at 10man shooting 20 shots.

----------------------------------------------------------

The break even point appears (where you tie with the 2 hunter killer missles) - on non-fliers (damn fliers lol) is around 9 to 10 shots fired (so 5 man or 6 man with a psycannon, or 7 man with 2 psycannons if say using purifiers)

at 9 shots it's 6.89% vs 10 shots at 9.06%. With jink, it drops to 15-16 shots to break even. (so like 8 guys, or 10 guys with 2 psycannons, and less useful the more psycannons you take)

Quite interesting after running the math.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just for fun, Psycannons - 1 psycannon 4 shots shooting at fliers - 3.86% to destroy, 2.51% vs Jink save
2 psycannons -9.36% 5.57% with jink

Vs non-fliers:

1 psycannon - 2 shots ( assault mode) - 7.27%, vs 4.88% with jink
4 shots - 23.57% vs 12.83%
8 shots - 65.38% vs 38.91%

Informative post, will check back often. TY.

sudojoe wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

Are you allowed to shoot your storm bolter if you cast a psychic shooting attack?

No.

The apothecary, lacking a gun, is a good choice to chooose as the caster of holocaust (it being the paladin power where the caster is chosen rather than randomly selected). But of course using it does mean you then can't cast hammerhand or activate force weapons in the ensuing assault phase.

I quite often cast holocause with solo paladins now because I find they're quite often going to cause more casualties via that than hammerhand.

Statistically speaking psybolts started to become worth it in 5th when you had 5-6 stormbolter firers in a unit. As you say, with glances being worthwhile now, that's probably shifted downward a notch. it's certainly well worth it to get psybolts on ten man squads, except perhaps paladins where you'll likely have only 5 stormbolters shooting (apothecary and 4 psycannon making up the other half of the unit).

Very good points, I fogot about warp charge there too and the psycannons XD

I tended to buy them for a squad of assault oriented purifiers back in 5th who didn't take psycannons and had extra halberds/hammer and ran upfield with a Land raider or storm raven often with a liby. Hrm.. makes me wanna do that again.

Also good point about moving and the flamer templates for the redeemer. I forgot to put that in the first page. I'll edit it later when I get home.

------------------------------------

BTW just ran the numbers for a squad of 10, shooting 20 shots, you can get 38.66% of a wreck off on AV 11. If you are shooting at a Jink'ing skimmer, that's cut down to 18.13% wreck.

Vs shooting at a flier - 1.72% of a wreck, if they Jink, that's cut down to 0.57% wreck.

------------------------------------------------

Not very good odds :/

Bottom line though, good chance or at least decent of wrecking a rhino in a single round.

Just for comparison - for that 20 points, you can get say get 2 hunter killer missles for your anti-tank - and then get roughly 7.27% of a wreck for 2 shots with jink/5+ save. or 10.80% without a cover save.

Vs flier - 2.76% of wreck for those same 2 shots. Down to 1.84% to wreck with jink save.

Overall, pretty decent investment for a 20 point investment at 10man shooting 20 shots.

----------------------------------------------------------

The break even point appears (where you tie with the 2 hunter killer missles) - on non-fliers (damn fliers lol) is around 9 to 10 shots fired (so 5 man or 6 man with a psycannon, or 7 man with 2 psycannons if say using purifiers)

at 9 shots it's 6.89% vs 10 shots at 9.06%. With jink, it drops to 15-16 shots to break even. (so like 8 guys, or 10 guys with 2 psycannons, and less useful the more psycannons you take)

Quite interesting after running the math.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just for fun, Psycannons - 1 psycannon 4 shots shooting at fliers - 3.86% to destroy, 2.51% vs Jink save
2 psycannons -9.36% 5.57% with jink

Vs non-fliers:

1 psycannon - 2 shots ( assault mode) - 7.27%, vs 4.88% with jink
4 shots - 23.57% vs 12.83%
8 shots - 65.38% vs 38.91%

Nice math, but in the end nothings changed. Golden rule, load your squads with as many psycannons as you can.

I'm gonna try today 10 paladins, 4 halberds, 4 hammers, 2 swords, 4 master crafted psycannons, and apotecary. With Draigo, of course, vs Wolves.

I'll deepstrike them, unless it's the anvil deployment, where I'll give them scout for the 6" extra.

So guys, how is it that Dreadknights get S10 now all the time?

I was just trying to find it, but didn't see anything in the FAQ; is it something in the BRB?

Also was fiddling with a list that was -
Draigo
12 paladins (10 squad Banner + Apo and 2 squad for babysitting an Obj)
3 Dreadknights (tele & incin)
1850 pts

Would be pretty silly! Would likely only take 2 DKs though, and probably a psyrifle dread to sit in the back. Although I'm not sure what my opponent would do if he had 3 DKs in his forces.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:I'd not mc the psycannon, I'd take a banner instead.

What really? MCPsycannons are great! I have to use that reroll for each one almost every time I fire them, and I almost always hit with the 2nd roll.

Are you getting Counterattack from the Warlord trait? And yea, rerolling 1s on wounds is amazing, especially since psycannons wound so many things on 2s.

I'd not mc the psycannon, I'd take a banner instead.

And a stave. Always a stave. Staves save lives. Never leave Titan without one.

I'd also not deepstrike them. Ever.

Just in case it's of interest, I run:

apothecary/hammer
psycannon/banner
psycannon/halberd
psycannon/halberd
psycannon/sword
stave
mc hammer
mc hammer
hammer
sword

as I find the halberds of less utility now.


Scout
re-roll 1s to wound
Counterattack

are all great, depending on opponent and mission (sometime syou need to make other things scoring). 10 paladins with Counterattack and a banner (40 attacks when charged) will make almost anything stop and think hard before charging.

sudojoe wrote:actually with the DCA's being able to wield 2 power weapons, you get around the whole power weapon restrictions and can still get AP1 or AP3 and in general, still slaughter just about eveything they touch. Just put an axe + sword on the model and you get to strike with whatever weapon you want.

Given that the Death Cult Assassin models all have swords, running them with axes would constitute Modelling for Advantage, wouldn't it?

It's one thing if they sell different models with different weapons, go ahead, pick the one you like. But when the models all come with swords, you're pretty much locked in to swords.

Given that the Death Cult Assassin models all have swords, running them with axes would constitute Modelling for Advantage, wouldn't it?

It's one thing if they sell different models with different weapons, go ahead, pick the one you like. But when the models all come with swords, you're pretty much locked in to swords.

I don't see that at all. It's not like you're using old squad models as DCA so they're harder to get los with, you're simply modelling the weapon you want. it's pretty damn clear in the rules that you just look at the model to tell. Nothing says you cannot choose they type. The entry for DCA says 'two power weapons' not 'two power swords'. If anyone takes the time to convert to sword and axe then that is what the model will have and that falls square within the rules.

Note I don't run DCA and never would as T3 troops who are not evil space faeries are beneath my contempt. But I see no reason why any model from any codex that has 'power weapon' as an option should not have player choice as to which of sword, axe or maul so long as they model that properly.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, how is it that Dreadknights get S10 now all the time?

I was just trying to find it, but didn't see anything in the FAQ; is it something in the BRB?

The rules for DCCWs changed. They don't have the walker restriction anymore. If you have one, it doubles your Str and is AP2 at inititive.

The rules for the sword also give the reroll ability passivly. You don't use the sword as the primary weapon to gain the benifit(its wording is explicitly different to all other Nemisis weapons)

And neither the Sword nor DCCW are specilist weapons so they can give +1A to each other.


So a DK with a sword has 4 Str10 attacks with rerolls to hit, wound, and armor penetration.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:...it's pretty damn clear in the rules that you just look at the model to tell. Nothing says you cannot choose they type.

Nothing says you can choose the type either. The rules are permissive, not restrictive, they tell you what you can do, not what you cannot. They don't say, "you can cut the weapons off models and glue other ones on to get a different weapon profile." Conversions are permitted for aesthetic reasons only, not to impact game play.

DCA models come with swords.

But I see no reason why any model from any codex that has 'power weapon' as an option should not have player choice as to which of sword, axe or maul so long as they model that properly.

Because that's not how they come. It's the same reason you can't put grots on 60mm bases and crowd the table, or have lying down monstrous creatures to get cover.

Redbeard wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:...it's pretty damn clear in the rules that you just look at the model to tell. Nothing says you cannot choose they type.

Nothing says you can choose the type either. The rules are permissive, not restrictive, they tell you what you can do, not what you cannot. They don't say, "you can cut the weapons off models and glue other ones on to get a different weapon profile." Conversions are permitted for aesthetic reasons only, not to impact game play.

DCA models come with swords.

But I see no reason why any model from any codex that has 'power weapon' as an option should not have player choice as to which of sword, axe or maul so long as they model that properly.

Because that's not how they come. It's the same reason you can't put grots on 60mm bases and crowd the table, or have lying down monstrous creatures to get cover.

If it was an older codex, id agree, but the amount of stuff in the GK codex that made 0 sence in 5ed, but does in 6ed (changes to combat rules for instance means digital weapons on champion is no longer so odd) the wording "power WEAPONS" instead of power SWORDS seems purposely vague, to give a choice.