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Martel732 wrote:
36" range on a jet bike is fundamentally different than anything you listed Requizen.

True, but just because it's not something that exists currently doesn't mean it ends the game by itself. Again - Daemon Summoning is fundamentally different from anything we had seen in the past. It literally didn't exist until 7th edition. And everyone screamed that it would destroy the game and no one would ever play 40k again because it's such an impossible army to play against. But people worked around it.

Yes, Scatterbikes are going to make Eldar even more of a top dog than they are. Yes, it's extremely powerful and shouldn't be part of the game. But if it is, people will find a way to play with it. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

zerosignal wrote:
Is it possible this is a very late april's fools?

I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.

I'm pretty sure that's been known for awhile. I was under the delusion recently with all the 7th edition books that they might actually care, until now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I legit feel bad for a lot of armies out there (except Necrons). Eldar are going to have things that most armies can't counter.

 Xenomancers wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Is it possible this is a very late april's fools?

I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.

Gotta be honest - This game is absolutely unplayable if this change comes into effect.

Except it's not. All of you doomsayers, and there's many, need to remember one thing. If you aren't prepared to handle a game, turn it down. If you're too scared or your army isn't equipped for a game against a specific list, turn the game down and move on. Ask for a different list, like limiting Jetbikes to the old 1 in 3 or asking for no Super Heavies or Gargantuans. They say no, they're turning you down now and obviously the two of you are playing different games. The game isn't unplayable. Some players, and the keyword is SOME will abuse this to no end. Don't play against their cheese if you don't like it. But being the definition for exaggerated apocalypse doesn't help yourself, the game or the people that actually like Eldar for being Eldar and don't field the Cheesex spam lists.

Requizen wrote:
Remember when 7th came out? Everyone was screaming and wailing because the only army that would ever win any games ever again was Daemons. They could summon 2000+ extra points! That's so broken I can't even comprehend it!

I have been vocal that I hope we are wrong and something else is in play. That being said, this is so much above the summoning spam issue, it isn't even funny. 10 Long Range D weapons and 160 S6 AP6 shots on Jetbikes with potential for TL or Rending at 1850 is wrong as hell. Find me a list that could even survive 4 turns, forget win, and I'll give you a cookie.

But there are so many other games where I don't have to worry about it. Gravstars I can kinda hide from a gravstar. Maybe their invis fails. Maybe their gate fails. Maybe. But this? You can't hide from the bikes and they outrange all Imperial special weapons. And the heavy weapons the Imperium has don't have enough shots coming back.

Requizen wrote:
True, but just because it's not something that exists currently doesn't mean it ends the game by itself. Again - Daemon Summoning is fundamentally different from anything we had seen in the past. It literally didn't exist until 7th edition. And everyone screamed that it would destroy the game and no one would ever play 40k again because it's such an impossible army to play against. But people worked around it.

Actually, the reason is that we had limited information and incorrectly assessed the threat. People also don't want to go to a tournament with 200 extra models and not finish every game because of chaining summoning.

This is quite simple: you shoot your opponent off the board in 1-3 turns. Unless there is a very big shoe that's going to drop, you can't stand against it unless you stay off the board until turn 5.

Requizen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
36" range on a jet bike is fundamentally different than anything you listed Requizen.

True, but just because it's not something that exists currently doesn't mean it ends the game by itself. Again - Daemon Summoning is fundamentally different from anything we had seen in the past. It literally didn't exist until 7th edition. And everyone screamed that it would destroy the game and no one would ever play 40k again because it's such an impossible army to play against. But people worked around it.

Yes, Scatterbikes are going to make Eldar even more of a top dog than they are. Yes, it's extremely powerful and shouldn't be part of the game. But if it is, people will find a way to play with it. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

Deamon summoning meant that you had to dedicate a huge proportion of your list to it and thus drastically reduce your damage out put. That was why deamon summoning wasn't as good as originally predicted. Your opponents army was going intouched (relatively) and so could target one summoned unit after another with little loss in efficiency.
This however is all about damage output. It completely misses the steps deamon summoning needed to be effective and just auto provides an insane amount of damage output with your opponent being crippled and unable to do anything about it. It literally has no disadvantages that cannot be covered - unlike summoning lists.

Should I start cutting off the Shuriken catapaults on my Jetbikes and gluing on Scatterlasers/ Shuriken cannons?

GW dun fethed up. If they wanted us to replace all of our old Jetbikes with the new ones they should've made the cheesy new option an entirely new gun. Not one that a lot of Eldar players have a ton of lying around in their bitz box.

yes.

This adversely affects tournament players and people who have Eldar playing, WAAC friends. Saying that the game is destroyed/unplayable/broken/dead is crazy. It's like people who complained because Dark Souls got an easy mode or whatever when they are under no obligation to play it.

Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Should I start cutting off the Shuriken catapaults on my Jetbikes and gluing on Scatterlasers/ Shuriken cannons?

Not until the book is out.

Also - nothing like this has ever remotely happened before.

 Davylove21 wrote:
This adversely affects tournament players and people who have Eldar playing, WAAC friends. Saying that the game is destroyed/unplayable/broken/dead is crazy. It's like people who complained because Dark Souls got an easy mode or whatever when they are under no obligation to play it.

Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.

If by mind, you mean die horribly, I agree.

Wait until the codex is official, Lime. Just in case. There is still that tiny glimmer of hope that something is wrong with the information.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Wait until the codex is official, Lime. Just in case. There is still that tiny glimmer of hope that something is wrong with the information.

Yeah, we might find that scatterlasers have increased to 5 shots each and have Rending

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Wait until the codex is official, Lime. Just in case. There is still that tiny glimmer of hope that something is wrong with the information.

I hope so too. I really, really hope that Eldar aren't going to be this broken. But knowing Gee Dubs and Mr. Kelly...

 Davylove21 wrote:
Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.

Each autocannon shot = 1/2 Hit. 5/6 Wound. 1/3 Fail Save. So... 5/36 or 10/36 per autocannon. So you need 4 autocannons to kill a single bike. How many do you fit in a list?

In return, that single bike can kill: 3/4 Hit, 5/6 Wound, 2/3 Fail Save (cover). 30/72 or 120/72 per SL with cover. 60/24 without. So 1-3 Guard per Jetbike. I have 40 or so.

Chances are you won't have any infantry left after a turn or so to even fire the autocannons.


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Poly Ranger wrote:
Also - nothing like this has ever remotely happened before.

Not sure if serious.

We've had overpowered lists/armies/combos before, but not to this extent. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

160 SL shots on Jetbikes plus 10 Long Range Destroyers plus Psychic Buffs is a big measure to live up to.

 Davylove21 wrote:
This adversely affects tournament players and people who have Eldar playing, WAAC friends. Saying that the game is destroyed/unplayable/broken/dead is crazy. It's like people who complained because Dark Souls got an easy mode or whatever when they are under no obligation to play it.

Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.

Sure - if you don't mind losing 89 guardsmen/heavy wepons teams (IDs T3) a turn. And an autocannon causes 0.56 wounds against jetbikes a turn. How many auto cannons you going to spam at 1850pts? Also remember the extra stuff eldar will have and that you don't want HWSs as theu will be IDd so need to be hidden in blobs (not very effectively with the amount of casualties you'll be taking).

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
And who randomly brought in that Elves needed soulstones to stop slaanesh eating their souls, despite it never being mentioned before.

Uh, what do you think the Waystones on Ulthuan have been for?

That's not new, at all.

Autocannons aren't the right weapon for killing Jetbikes.

Not saying bikes are fine (omgwtfbbq is probably the best term for them), but there are better options.

 pretre wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.

Each autocannon shot = 1/2 Hit. 5/6 Wound. 1/3 Fail Save. So... 5/36 or 10/36 per autocannon. So you need 4 autocannons to kill a single bike. How many do you fit in a list?

In return, that single bike can kill: 3/4 Hit, 5/6 Wound, 2/3 Fail Save (cover). 30/72 or 120/72 per SL with cover. 60/24 without. So 1-3 Guard per Jetbike. I have 40 or so.

Chances are you won't have any infantry left after a turn or so to even fire the autocannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Also - nothing like this has ever remotely happened before.

Not sure if serious.

We've had overpowered lists/armies/combos before, but not to this extent. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

160 SL shots on Jetbikes plus 10 Long Range Destroyers plus Psychic Buffs is a big measure to live up to.

No - being serious. Name me a unit with that damage output, that maneuverability, that range, that durability (factor range in) and scoring (or OS in 7th) for 270pts in the history of the game. Hell just name me a unit for 135pts with half the durability and firepower.

Bharring wrote:
Autocannons aren't the right weapon for killing Jetbikes.

Not saying bikes are fine (omgwtfbbq is probably the best term for them), but there are better options.

What are the good options for a unit with a 12" move and a 36" gun with 4 S6 shots? I think GW is just trolling anyone who can do math now. Hopefully, the joke will be on them in the end.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Is it possible this is a very late april's fools?

I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.

Gotta be honest - This game is absolutely unplayable if this change comes into effect.

Except it's not. All of you doomsayers, and there's many, need to remember one thing. If you aren't prepared to handle a game, turn it down. If you're too scared or your army isn't equipped for a game against a specific list, turn the game down and move on. Ask for a different list, like limiting Jetbikes to the old 1 in 3 or asking for no Super Heavies or Gargantuans. They say no, they're turning you down now and obviously the two of you are playing different games. The game isn't unplayable. Some players, and the keyword is SOME will abuse this to no end. Don't play against their cheese if you don't like it. But being the definition for exaggerated apocalypse doesn't help yourself, the game or the people that actually like Eldar for being Eldar and don't field the Cheesex spam lists.

I like to play tournaments too - even my friendly games are mostly competitive or semi competitive lists. It's not exaggerated - maybe this game is going a different dirrection and just giving everything insane rules with necron and eldar being the beginning - I really don't see that happening though. Skiari are nothing like this. Short of giving marines 2+ saves with 5++ and 4+fnp and assault 3 rending bolters...i really don't see this game going anywhere but down.

Poly Ranger wrote:
No - being serious. Name me a unit with that damage output, that maneuverability, that range, that durability (factor range in) and scoring (or OS in 7th) for 270pts in the history of the game. Hell just name me a unit for 135pts with half the durability and firepower.

Okay, we're on the same page.

Ally in your own Eldar? I really can't see many good options for the IoM besides using Titans.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Ally in your own Eldar? I really can't see many good options for the IoM besides using Titans.

That's almost certainly going to be worse than the list I posted.

Even titans will lose to it.

Single Cad: 40 Jetbikes, 1-2 Jetseers, Wraithknight, 3-9 Vauls with D. I'm guessing 1850.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Ally in your own Eldar? I really can't see many good options for the IoM besides using Titans.

You got it - come the apocalypses!

 pretre wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Ally in your own Eldar? I really can't see many good options for the IoM besides using Titans.

That's almost certainly going to be worse than the list I posted.

Even titans will lose to it.

Single Cad: 40 Jetbikes, 1-2 Jetseers, Wraithknight, 3-9 Vauls with D. I'm guessing 1850.

I would say to take a bunch of Russes, throw camo netting on them and stick them behind a ADL while using an Imperial Knight to go feth up the WK.

But all of that D fire puts a damper on that. I guess Mr. Kelly couldn't stomach the idea of his precious army even having a chance of losing against the Imperial Guard.

I said better, not good.

What are the better weapons for killing Tac marines?

(This is kinda beyond the whole all-termies-get-assault-cannons idea we agreed was bad...)

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Ally in your own Eldar? I really can't see many good options for the IoM besides using Titans.

Relic Whirlwind Scorpius? 48" range, S8 AP3, Ignore cover with the Battle of Keylek, Barrage the Warlock out, 13/12/10. 160

Downside? Uhh you can only take one if you don't have a Master of the Forge and Av12 can be glanced to death. It also means no Sicaran/Fire Raptor (and I think Keylek is banned for some tournaments).