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sassmcsass wrote:
Noise marines just got better. Torrenting AP3 ignores cover is going to be a must.

They'll get one shot off before they die. That's your must take?

sassmcsass wrote:
Noise marines just got better. Torrenting AP3 ignores cover is going to be a must.

36 inch range mobile platform. Torrent is not the answer.

sassmcsass wrote:
Noise marines just got better. Torrenting AP3 ignores cover is going to be a must.

Heldrakes & Land Raider Redeemers too, right?

Put them in a Rhino? Burning Brand of Skalthrax always makes up its points for me...

 pretre wrote:

Requizen wrote:
As a Necron?

1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?

You have a 2+ character out front? That's cute when facing high mobility opponents. They just come from a different angle and kill everything but the 2+. Also, math is hard, but: 2+ rerollable is 1/36 failed wounds. With a 4+ RP, that makes 1/72. Orikan takes wounds.

160 shots
106.66 hits
71.11 wounds (Lychguard are T5, so the unit is T5)
2+ rerolling makes that 1.97 wounds
4+++ rerolling 1s makes that .823 wounds

2+ character statistically ignores.

But you're right, you can maneuver around to the Lychguard, who then take 6.5 wounds statistically. Pretty good, but not enough to wipe the unit. And then you dedicated every bike into shooting a single unit for the entire turn.

2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.

Except for Misfortune, Lances, etc.

5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.

Good thing there isn't a rest of the eldar army. Also, good luck getting objectives and hope the other 800 points of their army didn't bring lances or D.

As I said, we'd have to deal with that still. But just by bringing them you mitigated 1080 points of his army, more than half in a Tournament setting or any reasonably costed game. And those vehicles can still jink against any rends on most of your vehicles (most important being Ghost Arks, whose passengers don't care about Jinking anyway).

The Obelisk is only 300 points, and is a Superheavy Skimmer, so moves 12, can Deep Strike, or can start on the board with a 3++. It's not anywhere close to a liability.

3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.

Can't bring them back if they are all dead. 4+/4+ is what? 1/4 dead. 160 shots/120 Hit/100 Wound. Dead unit.

4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.

You care, since they evaporate those flayed ones.

In both of those situations, you put 1080 points of shooting into a 130-260 point unit. I would take that trade any day of the week. Now, the rest of my army moves up.

6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.

8 Wounds at T8. Hmm.
160 Shots. BS4, so 120 hit. 20 Wounds. What's his save again? Oh yeah, he's dead. Even with Invis for one turn or 2+ for one turn, they just kill the rest of your army and wait for you to run out of tricks.

It's not perfect, but it's a giant fire magnet that can shrug off a lot of that shooting. 20 wounds is down to 5 if against the 4++/4+++ of the crypteks, or down to .83 if against the Cryptek with a Nightmare Shroud. No biggie. Again, a single unit soaking up over a thousand points of shooting for a turn and not dying is not a bad thing. I don't know why you would even think that shooting that much into a unit worth half of the points cost is a win for the Eldar.

DCannon4Life wrote:

sassmcsass wrote:
Noise marines just got better. Torrenting AP3 ignores cover is going to be a must.

Heldrakes & Land Raider Redeemers too, right?

I said this on the other thread. If you think a Redeemer is going to get in range then you haven't ever played decent Eldar players. They'll part before it like a school of fish part before a shark. Heldrakes just need to be focuses a little bit and can get glanced to death with a few double 6s. You Jink and that also removes the threat.

Malcador Infernus, with an AP3 Hellstorm template, Sonic Dreadnaughts, And apparently there's an Ignores Cover order on Guard. I'll be picking up a Malcador even as I rebuild my Eldar army to do this.

The point is that you don't need to put the full thousand points into most things. And for the really tough ones you wait until everything else is dead or get misfortune on a unit or two. Psychic buffs from the nigh-on required Farseer makes it event worse.

Basically, none of those are counters. They are just something that will live a turn or two before losing.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
You know, I don't understand why Phil Kelly doesn't have the same reputation that Matt Ward does. He's much more blatant about his favoritism than Ward was.

Kelly tends to make a fluffy codex full of rather uninspiring crap choices sprinkled in with 2-3 totally overpowered choices that make no sense whatsoever and are completely game breaking. Ward puts a lot of very strong all over the codex. Kelly's fluff is better than Ward though.

Sisters of Battle have a decent choice with the new Plasma Obliterator. Throw Dominions with Jacobus and a Simulacrum in for S7 AP2 Massive Blast Ignores Cover.

 pretre wrote:
The point is that you don't need to put the full thousand points into most things. And for the really tough ones you wait until everything else is dead or get misfortune on a unit or two. Psychic buffs from the nigh-on required Farseer makes it event worse.

Basically, none of those are counters. They are just something that will live a turn or two before losing.

Well said.

I think that it should also be mentioned that, since we're talking about a few hundred points of Necrons surviving a turn of shooting from over a thousand points of the most broken unit in the game, hands down, it really says something about just how ridiculously overpowered Necrons are with Decurion.

 Exergy wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
You know, I don't understand why Phil Kelly doesn't have the same reputation that Matt Ward does. He's much more blatant about his favoritism than Ward was.

Kelly tends to make a fluffy codex full of rather uninspiring crap choices sprinkled in with 2-3 totally overpowered choices that make no sense whatsoever and are completely game breaking. Ward puts a lot of very strong all over the codex. Kelly's fluff is better than Ward though.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh man, that's a good one. Kelly is responsible for Wolfy McWolfy with Wolfclaws and Wolf Talismans.
He's also been responsible for the most broken books in both Fantasy and 40k, repeatedly. Space Wolves with JoTWW, two to three(or possibly four?) editions worth of C: Eldar, and the previous Vampire Counts book all can be laid pretty squarely at his feet.

As an aside, I did the math on Scatter Lasers taking out a land raider with Misfortune.

48 shots needed without Guide.
A little over 40 with.

So one guided/misfortuned squad of your 4 10 bike squads kills a land raider.

Not bad since Jetseers will probably be the HQ of choice.

 pretre wrote:
The point is that you don't need to put the full thousand points into most things. And for the really tough ones you wait until everything else is dead or get misfortune on a unit or two. Psychic buffs from the nigh-on required Farseer makes it event worse.

Basically, none of those are counters. They are just something that will live a turn or two before losing.

Of course, I never said hard counter. Soft counters are still counters nonetheless. Those 6 items are just things that are good against 1080 points of Jetbikes with Scatterlasers, and none of them are even close to that points total. They're not the whole army. Just as the Jetbikes get Fire Dragons and Wraithknights, the Necrons will be getting other units on the table too. An Eldar player putting down 1080 points of Jetbikes with added Fire Warriors doesn't automatically win the game.

Imagine for a second that I took a Decurion with just 1079 points of Flayed Ones and Warriors. 13 ppm, so 83 of them. Scatter Lasers kill 13 per turn: 160 shots, 106.6 hits, 53.3 wounds, 26.6 after armor saves, 13.3 after Reanimate, so 13 die. Wow. 1080 points of Jetbikes killed ~169 points of Warriors/Flayed Ones.

People keep saying "well, any 100~200 point unit automatically dies to 160 shots from Scatterbikes". No gak. Most units die with they take focus fire from 1080 points of shooting. I would be really surprised if they statistically didn't. Necrons do because they're the hardiest army in the game, and even then it's only the most durable deathstars with high points costs. But those 1080 points of Jetbikes don't automatically table an opponent on Turn 2, so calm the heck down.

Let me reiterate: I don't think that this is balanced. I hope it's a typo. I'm not defending Eldar by any stretch of the imagination. But, the sky is not literally falling. I'm just saying there are ways to play around anything.

I dare you to give a list for DA and Skitarii that could have a snowballs chance in hell versus that.
For everyone not playing something OP as a Necron Decurion, the sky is INDEED falling.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
You know, I don't understand why Phil Kelly doesn't have the same reputation that Matt Ward does. He's much more blatant about his favoritism than Ward was.

Kelly tends to make a fluffy codex full of rather uninspiring crap choices sprinkled in with 2-3 totally overpowered choices that make no sense whatsoever and are completely game breaking. Ward puts a lot of very strong all over the codex. Kelly's fluff is better than Ward though.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh man, that's a good one. Kelly is responsible for Wolfy McWolfy with Wolfclaws and Wolf Talismans.
He's also been responsible for the most broken books in both Fantasy and 40k, repeatedly. Space Wolves with JoTWW, two to three(or possibly four?) editions worth of C: Eldar, and the previous Vampire Counts book all can be laid pretty squarely at his feet.

However his Eldar fluff is good and consistent from book to book. Which is more can be said about Wards fluff concerning anything but Ultramarines. Also it's the same Ward who totally broke Warhammer 7th (I think?) with Daemons.

And then who later gave the High Elves a cheap magic banner which conferred almost total immunity to the entire Daemons army to the unit carrying it, which could be any unit capable of carrying a 50pt banner. And who randomly brought in that Elves needed soulstones to stop slaanesh eating their souls, despite it never being mentioned before.

Let me reiterate: I don't think that this is balanced. I hope it's a typo. I'm not defending Eldar by any stretch of the imagination. But, the sky is not literally falling. I'm just saying there are ways to play around anything.

The sky might not be falling for a decurion army, but for almost every other force out there there is no way of 'playing around' with mid strength high volume 36 inch range JSJ bikes at a bargain price.

Requizen wrote:
Imagine for a second that I took a Decurion with just 1079 points of Flayed Ones and Warriors. 13 ppm, so 83 of them. Scatter Lasers kill 13 per turn: 160 shots, 106.6 hits, 53.3 wounds, 26.6 after armor saves, 13.3 after Reanimate, so 13 die. Wow. 1080 points of Jetbikes killed ~169 points of Warriors/Flayed Ones.

Math. 160 Shots. 120 Hits. 100 Wounds. 50 After Saves. 25 After Reanimate. Assuming we shoot the entire 160 at that one unit, don't use farseers, etc.

It's okay guys really - all SM bikes are getting assault cannons to compensate.

This is the fix for bolters I am sure - give all marines assault cannons.

And people scoffed at my idea of giving tac termies all assault cannons. Evidently Phil Kelly was listening!

 Thairne wrote:
I dare you to give a list for DA and Skitarii that could have a snowballs chance in hell versus that.
For everyone not playing something OP as a Necron Decurion, the sky is INDEED falling.

If the rumours about Craftworld jetbikes dropping to 4+ are true you could take several detachments consisting of one powerfield Interrogator-Chaplain (for Keeper of the Relics), two minimum Scout squads, and three naked Sicarians. 13/12/12 with a 4++ might live long enough to do something and one Sicarian is removing four jetbikes a turn.

Not particularly good but it might have a snowball's chance in hell.

Land raiders are not the answer. 6" max if going to disembark, 6" disembark. That's 12". How pray tell is anyone going to get into assault range of a 12" move, 36" range unit which has a 18"tubo boost if needed with a landraider?

Anything with side armour lower than 13 is not an answer for obvious reasons.

Infantry on foot/jp/cavalry/beast is not an answer due to the sheer amount of firepower which will decimate them.

Pods are not an answer as they will just move away in their turn.

Mass horde is not an answer as they will die in droves.

Mcs are not an answer due to the sheer amount of saves they will have to make.

FMCs are not an answer due to the sheer amount of shots will mean plenty of 6's to hit - especially with guide.

Artillery is not the answer because that amount of shots wounding on 5+ will take them down at a very quick rate.

Void shields are not the answer because they won't stand up to that many st6 shots for any remote amount of time.

What is the answer? What actually has a points efficiency at taking down 27pt jetbikes that could survive their fire power? 3 CADs with 3 typhons? That's all I can think of. And the jet bikes would still out score them.

And to those who say it will 'only' take down 30 tac marines in one turn (which is in itself a ridiculous use of the word 'only') - jet bikes are even more durable due to jink and 36" effective range compared to 12" effective range.

If tac marines could take a bolter with 4 st6 ap6 shots, not have jink, not have a 12" move, and not have a turbo boost for 30pts, people would be yelling cheese at the top of their lungs. So a jet bike having all of that at 27pts is insane!

It is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in 40k by a long margin. And that includes 3rd ed BA rhino rush, serpent shields and the current rp wraiths. It makes all of those look like overcosted trash.

Also heavy flamer Land Speeder spam if you can get the alpha strike (unlikely, I know, but possible with Deep Strike).

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Let me reiterate: I don't think that this is balanced. I hope it's a typo. I'm not defending Eldar by any stretch of the imagination. But, the sky is not literally falling. I'm just saying there are ways to play around anything.

The sky might not be falling for a decurion army, but for almost every other force out there there is no way of 'playing around' with mid strength high volume 36 inch range JSJ bikes at a bargain price.

I don't believe that for a second.

Remember when 7th came out? Everyone was screaming and wailing because the only army that would ever win any games ever again was Daemons. They could summon 2000+ extra points! That's so broken I can't even comprehend it!

Oh, but they're not dominating? The Daemon lists we see winning tournaments are Deathstars that do minimal summoning for a few extra Daemonettes or the occasional Greater Daemon if they're feeling spicy. And even then, we've seen Scouts win tournaments and Lictors win tournaments, kicking Daemon players out quite handily. If those tryhard tournament players knew that Summoning was so broken that it literally couldn't be countered, then why aren't they rolling up to events with 6000+ points of Daemons in a box?

Even if these changes go through (which, again, I don't hope they do), Scatterbikes are going to be a power unit. People will find ways to play around them, and then they'll still be scary but it'll just be a thing to deal with, like the outright terrifying Wolfstar with friends for all those scary upgrades. Or Wraiths. Or Screamerstar. Or current-edition Wraithknights. Or Invisible Khornedogs. I can go on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Imagine for a second that I took a Decurion with just 1079 points of Flayed Ones and Warriors. 13 ppm, so 83 of them. Scatter Lasers kill 13 per turn: 160 shots, 106.6 hits, 53.3 wounds, 26.6 after armor saves, 13.3 after Reanimate, so 13 die. Wow. 1080 points of Jetbikes killed ~169 points of Warriors/Flayed Ones.

Math. 160 Shots. 120 Hits. 100 Wounds. 50 After Saves. 25 After Reanimate. Assuming we shoot the entire 160 at that one unit, don't use farseers, etc.

Right, misclick on the calculator.

Ok, 25 die. They didn't obliterate the entire army in one go. They didn't even do half of the 83 equivalently pointed models. I'm still not worried.

Anyone trying to claim 27pts for 4 st6 shots on a bs4, 3+ t4 model with 4+ jink, 12" move and 18" (or 24"?) Turbo boost base with access to OS is absolutely insanely deluded or has absolutely no concept of balance or fairness in the game.

36" range on a jet bike is fundamentally different than anything you listed Requizen.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyone trying to claim 27pts for 4 st6 shots on a bs4, 3+ t4 model with 4+ jink, 12" move and 18" (or 24"?) Turbo boost base with access to OS is absolutely insanely deluded or has absolutely no concept of balance or fairness in the game.

Only conclusion that can be drawn.

Is it possible this is a very late april's fools?

I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.

And how are warriors going to get into rapid fire range or flayed ones in charge range to do any decent damage back? 20 st4 shots from a full strength warrior squad isn't going to do jack to a jet bike unit compared to what they are shooting back.

zerosignal wrote:
Is it possible this is a very late april's fools?

I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.

Gotta be honest - This game is absolutely unplayable if this change comes into effect.

Requizen wrote:


Right, misclick on the calculator.

Ok, 25 die. They didn't obliterate the entire army in one go. They didn't even do half of the 83 equivalently pointed models. I'm still not worried.

You're not worried that just under a third of your models just got evaporated in a single shooting phase and that you have very little chance of inflicting the same amount of damage in return due to them easily avoiding being in range of your guns?

That they don't kill the whole army in one turn is not good if the stuff you have left is still in no position to be able to actually do anything. Deleting 25 models a turn means the Necron player is tabled by the end of Turn 4, with very little they could do due to being too slow and too short ranged.

That is not helping your argument.