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Sorry I was just saying that the stats given to normal marines gives a lot of wiggle room for improved marines and custodes.

God damn I need these WD leaks now!

You think GW.....I mean some leaker will post a blurry pic of the new WD and new marines if we each burn a thick coated one layer marine?

Space marines, space marines

So pointless

 Azreal13 wrote:
The models ITT are not supposed to be regular Marines, so nobody knows their stats

How sure are you of that? It was pointed out that the pic at the beginning of the thread shows models with Tactical markings.

 Binabik15 wrote:
Granted, an Ork could -and would- do the same given the opportunity. Were they S4 back in third? My memory is hazy and I don't want to look for my codex.

Nope, Orks were basically T4 I2 Guard back in the day. It was actually weird when 3rd rolled around and they made them BS2.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
The models ITT are not supposed to be regular Marines, so nobody knows their stats

How sure are you of that? It was pointed out that the pic at the beginning of the thread shows models with Tactical markings.

Because that's been the rumour since inception. By both Hastings and Sad Panda. It would be a very specific set of circumstances where both were right about new Marine armour but wrong about them representing a new sort of Marine.

They are, ultimately, still Marines though, so there's no reason to think them following similar organization (we've already maybe seen an assault variant, if you squint a bit) is that unusual. There's already Assault and Devastator Centurions and Tactical and Assault Termies, it isn't unreasonable (especially from THE Codex chapter) that we have new, different, Marines but the same structure.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 Binabik15 wrote:
Granted, an Ork could -and would- do the same given the opportunity. Were they S4 back in third? My memory is hazy and I don't want to look for my codex.

Nope, Orks were basically T4 I2 Guard back in the day. It was actually weird when 3rd rolled around and they made them BS2.

Keep in mind they also went from WS 3 to WS 4, and A 1 to A 2. Orks were given a very clear focus on CC for 3rd.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
The models ITT are not supposed to be regular Marines, so nobody knows their stats

How sure are you of that? It was pointed out that the pic at the beginning of the thread shows models with Tactical markings.

Because that's been the rumour since inception. By both Hastings and Sad Panda. It would be a very specific set of circumstances where both were right about new Marine armour but wrong about them representing a new sort of Marine.

They are, ultimately, still Marines though, so there's no reason to think them following similar organization (we've already maybe seen an assault variant, if you squint a bit) is that unusual. There's already Assault and Devastator Centurions and Tactical and Assault Termies, it isn't unreasonable (especially from THE Codex chapter) that we have new, different, Marines but the same structure.

Like you say, it's still rumor. I'll believe it when I see it.

A lot of people said that, plenty of people kept saying it when the original pic leaked, some people are still saying it now.

It won't surprise me if some people are still saying it when the pre orders go up.

If those pics are reals I think they might not be exactly regular space marines, more like a new faction of some sort, like sons of Guilliman.

 EnTyme wrote:

robbienw wrote:
I like the scale and proportions of the current marines. I have always thought that some of the old imperial guard human models were too big and could do with a re-scaling downwards, rather than making marines too big.

I find the so called 'Truescale' converted Marines label to be a misnomer.

This is where I am. I think things like Cadians and Catachans were too tall. If you look at the GSC models, the Neophytes are about the right size when compared to SMs. If marines are upsized, are they going to upsize my Necrons, too? They're also supposed to be 8-ft tall.

The answer to your question is, "Yes, eventually."

The progression of aesthetics in GW miniatures (and to some degree all miniatures) is fairly easy to follow. They started simplistic and ugly. They got more sophisticated and better looking with time and technology. The era from 4th edition through 7th edition saw the older "ugly" kits being replaced with nicer sculpts, increased dynamism/poseability, and multi-part options. The last major stylistic development was probably the dual-unit kits.

GW needs to keep making and selling models, but we're probably at or near "peak niceness" in terms of available detail and options. But they can't really keep adding new units to armies forever. You can look at a lot of contemporary kits and logically wonder if they will ever need to be replaced. If they don't need replacement and there's a limit to how many new units can reasonably be designed and sold, it's fairly obvious that one direction to go is "updating" armies by tweaking the relative scale of miniatures. It basically gives them a reason to redo every single kit if they want to.

 Bull0 wrote:
I'm remembering people were just as annoyed when they moved Marines up to the 32mm bases, said it would be a massive annoyance, etc. It's really not a big deal if they've made them a bit taller.

I still haven't rebased mine. Probably never will

Meh I have 3rd gen, DA Vengeance, and Codex current gen. The new marine looks damn good to me, so I welcome it. Just break the groups into their respective gen squads and let your paint job do the rest.

On a more positive note, did anyone else notice that the collarpiece for the space marines actually seems to act as a proper gorget now, which the art has depicted since friggin' third? That'll be nice.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/8455351812194215024185731369264064090589922977371o.jpg

Have you seen this - The White Dwarf in a numarine suit

Hah! I guess that's the 30 year anniversary WD then. Very nice.

I love the humor, thanks Bloodmaster

40th WD anniversary btw

I'm not exactly thrilled at the idea of 'Guillimarines', if indeed this is what these guys are gonna be, rather than just the new line of marines... it seems, I dunno, frivolous somehow. Is this what the 40k universe needs, a new breed of Space Marine? It's not a huge deal, but if it's true, it'll be 'meh' for a lot of fans I think.

Maybe others feel similar and just don't want to accept the mounting evidence...

Maybe it is more like a new armour type? Did we need Terminator armour in '89? Mk VII? Mk VIII?

The armour was probably redesigned by rowboat, and he's probably also done some clever stuff with the creation process, and from that we've got handwringing that these are now GUILLIMARINES that are one better than our old, gakky space marines, when in practise it's just a nice new marine kit with a little bit of in universe explanation for the scale creep. that's my bet. Won't know til we get some more info though. I really like the models though, not gonna lie.

Years ago in a WD article they had said that they were eventually going to a "True Scale" space marine scale.

This was the article that stated they wanted 40k games to be like epic with hoards of minis at the feet of giant war engines. I'll try to dig the issue up, but it was one of the old timers that was talking about all this. Chambers maybe?

True scale, giant marines, numarines... Whatever you want to call them, they were inevitable to arrive.

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not exactly thrilled at the idea of 'Guillimarines', if indeed this is what these guys are gonna be, rather than just the new line of marines... it seems, I dunno, frivolous somehow. Is this what the 40k universe needs, a new breed of Space Marine? It's not a huge deal, but if it's true, it'll be 'meh' for a lot of fans I think.

Maybe others feel similar and just don't want to accept the mounting evidence...

I'm sure others feel similar, but if I'm going to be honest?

I can get behind a new breed of Space Marine created by Guilliman and Cawl a lot easier than some sudden new Mark of superduper armor that makes Marines into Custodes out of nowhere.
Marines, in terms of the fluff, have always been a bit over the top...but so have the things they've been fighting. The Imperium has been on the back foot since the end of the Heresy, with Marines being figures of legend that can't be expended in wars of attrition. In the fluff Ork Boyz can bring Marines down from weight of numbers, Traitor Astartes can go toe to toe with their Loyalist counterparts, Tyranids can drown them in bodies, Tau can bring them down with pulse rifle volleys, etc.
Something has to change, in terms of the fluff, and Guilliman seemingly has seen that.

I kind of view it similar to the way Halo's canon evolved to introduce the Spartan III/IVprograms. The UNSC had a finite number of S-IIs(notably the Master Chief), and once the program became public? The S2s became a propaganda tool. The UNSC never marked Spartans as killed in action because they deemed(rightly) the confirmed loss of a Spartan as something that would have a huge impact on morale of the regular joes.
Enter the Spartan III program. They weren't as impressive as Chief and his breed, but they could be created quickly and used for suicide runs that nobody had to know about.

Not saying that's the route they're going to take, but I can see a way for a new breed of Marine to fit in easier than some amazing armor that boosts Astartes to Primarch or Custodes levels.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I can get behind a new breed of Space Marine created by Guilliman and Cawl a lot easier than some sudden new Mark of superduper armor that makes Marines into Custodes out of nowhere.

This is a fair point. I hope it's explained well like this in the lore.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Enter the Spartan III program. They weren't as impressive as Chief and his breed, but they could be created quickly and used for suicide runs that nobody had to know about.

Love the Spartan lore. If they actually made a Spartan III -style expendable Space Marine unit in 40k... that would be very cool to me.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not exactly thrilled at the idea of 'Guillimarines', if indeed this is what these guys are gonna be, rather than just the new line of marines... it seems, I dunno, frivolous somehow. Is this what the 40k universe needs, a new breed of Space Marine? It's not a huge deal, but if it's true, it'll be 'meh' for a lot of fans I think.

Maybe others feel similar and just don't want to accept the mounting evidence...

I'm sure others feel similar, but if I'm going to be honest?

I can get behind a new breed of Space Marine created by Guilliman and Cawl a lot easier than some sudden new Mark of superduper armor that makes Marines into Custodes out of nowhere.
Marines, in terms of the fluff, have always been a bit over the top...but so have the things they've been fighting. The Imperium has been on the back foot since the end of the Heresy, with Marines being figures of legend that can't be expended in wars of attrition. In the fluff Ork Boyz can bring Marines down from weight of numbers, Traitor Astartes can go toe to toe with their Loyalist counterparts, Tyranids can drown them in bodies, Tau can bring them down with pulse rifle volleys, etc.
Something has to change, in terms of the fluff, and Guilliman seemingly has seen that.

I kind of view it similar to the way Halo's canon evolved to introduce the Spartan III/IVprograms. The UNSC had a finite number of S-IIs(notably the Master Chief), and once the program became public? The S2s became a propaganda tool. The UNSC never marked Spartans as killed in action because they deemed(rightly) the confirmed loss of a Spartan as something that would have a huge impact on morale of the regular joes.
Enter the Spartan III program. They weren't as impressive as Chief and his breed, but they could be created quickly and used for suicide runs that nobody had to know about.

Not saying that's the route they're going to take, but I can see a way for a new breed of Marine to fit in easier than some amazing armor that boosts Astartes to Primarch or Custodes levels.

Which would be great except fo a number of things.

1. The only reason these guys will exist is to re sell people whole armies of marines who all ready have whole armies of marines, thats it all fluff is secondary and was probably scribbled up by the Spirtual Leige himself.

2. I know the Imperium is a terrible bureaucratic nightmare, but seriously for 10k years of decline and loss they have had these gamechanging weapons and troops in a warehouse just a hop outside Terra.

3. Normal Marines are all that was need It's been hinted at a number of times that outside of a few genetic outliers(wolves,angels) the only reason there is not more marines is that the IG and High Lords saw it as a weaking of the cotrol/power.

4. Fluff is ultimately irrelevant it wll be either avarage and forgetable or terible and allways rembered. I lean towards the second option as parts of GS carried the stench of wardian fluff and I doubt he would miss the chance to replace all marines with Ultramarines MK2.

SeanDrake wrote:

Which would be great except fo a number of things.

1. The only reason these guys will exist is to re sell people whole armies of marines who all ready have whole armies of marines, thats it all fluff is secondary and was probably scribbled up by the Spirtual Leige himself.

If that were true, we would be seeing a whole new army from day one. So far all we've seen is what looks like a jump pack variant and a tactical variant. No new Terminators, no new Devastators, no new Centurions, Dreadnoughts, etc.

One of the bits that we got, photowise, had the standard Devastator kit being built with the new whatevers in the background.

2. I know the Imperium is a terrible bureaucratic nightmare, but seriously for 10k years of decline and loss they have had these gamechanging weapons and troops in a warehouse just a hop outside Terra.

I think you're misunderstanding what I was getting across.

I, personally, can get more behind Cawl and Guilliman's secret project having been something that would let them create new Astartes or enhance the existing Astartes using weird science rather than just "new armor bros!".

3. Normal Marines are all that was need It's been hinted at a number of times that outside of a few genetic outliers(wolves,angels) the only reason there is not more marines is that the IG and High Lords saw it as a weaking of the cotrol/power.

The way the fluff has hinted/outright said it is that the High Lords didn't want more Astartes as the Astartes are effectively their own entities.

The IG don't get a say in the matter.

4. Fluff is ultimately irrelevant it wll be either avarage and forgetable or terible and allways rembered. I lean towards the second option as parts of GS carried the stench of wardian fluff and I doubt he would miss the chance to replace all marines with Ultramarines MK2.

Ward had nothing to do with this. He's said, repeatedly, that he was getting involved on something from the Black Library side of things.

I may have to eat my words in the previous thread...

gotta say, they should have done more to distinguish them, so they could sit next to a regular marine and not make them look TOO weird...

Will see, but I would def own up to my mistaken position if this bears out.

Yes, for the sake of all that's holy, stop blaming Matt Ward for everything that you dislike.

Jump pack variant??? Where the hell is that?

Also when did Sad Panda weigh in on this? I must have missed that.

From my perspective, I honestly don't care about the background of why Nu-Marines exist.

The fact that I'd get my hands on a Space Marine miniature that's better proportioned and scaled than the current lot is a boon to my sense of "reasonable," in as much as that term can be applied to a sci-fi game.

After I get my hands on them, I can paint them as any chapter I want.

 General Kroll wrote:
Jump pack variant??? Where the hell is that?

It was in the photo of the two adults playing the game while standing there, not the other one with Tyranids and Ultramarines.

You couldn't see much, but there were a few models in blue with more dynamic jumpy poses and bulky backpacks that someone(I think Atia?) commented were jump pack troops.

Is this photo available to look at anywhere?

 General Kroll wrote:
Is this photo available to look at anywhere?

I think it's somewhere in this thread?

I'm not seeing it right now though--it might be one of the ones that got yoinked from the web for the time being.

You're looking for a man and a woman playing 40k, with scenery on the table. Containers, a landing pad, etc.