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Ultimately it comes down to the fact that guards are THE MOST internally balanced codex in the game. No other factions can fill a bridgade without a filler AND have room for a super heavy detachment and plus some.

 skchsan wrote:
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that guards are THE MOST internally balanced codex in the game. No other factions can fill a bridgade without a filler AND have room for a super heavy detachment and plus some.

That doesn't mean they're internally balanced, just that they've got lots of cheap options to pick from.

 Blndmage wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that guards are THE MOST internally balanced codex in the game. No other factions can fill a bridgade without a filler AND have room for a super heavy detachment and plus some.

That doesn't mean they're internally balanced, just that they've got lots of cheap options to pick from.

The fact they're cheap options that pull their own weight means they are internally well balanced.

 skchsan wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that guards are THE MOST internally balanced codex in the game. No other factions can fill a bridgade without a filler AND have room for a super heavy detachment and plus some.

That doesn't mean they're internally balanced, just that they've got lots of cheap options to pick from.

The fact they're cheap options that pull their own weight means they are internally well balanced.

AM have more option than multipule demons forces combined. It's not that they're internally balanced, they just have so many options.
If they were internally balanced, you'd be seeming a large variety of models in lists, not the same thing over and over.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Ya know why not just remove conscripts.. I dont think they actually officially have any models.

And with GWs whole no model no rules thing im surprised it even exists still.

They do have official models.

I see nothing popping up on the GW search bar for conscript

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You’ll also notice that no one is calling for 7ppm Guardsmen.

Marmatag does, IIRC.

 Desubot wrote:
I see nothing popping up on the GW search bar for conscript

We both know exactly what both sides of this argument are. I'll say something like "Cadian infantry are the conscript models" and you'll reply with "that's not an official conscript model, just a proxy". We are pretty much both right, so will just have to agree to disagree.

Spoletta wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
I used Blood of Kittens because I remember people saying it was a good source for lists.

So so.

It has only ITC results.

Downunderpairing is a bit better.

It was good enough to prove my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
@AAE

I just checked. Outiside of specifically IG lists, you only see a battalion. Ususally the L32, but occastionally with a few mortar squads.

However, inside IG lists, you do see a brigade. And they use six squads. And no more.

So great that they only take the bare minimum.

Source?

I know this is wrong because at the BAO there were multiple Imperial soup lists with Brigades of 60 and 80+ Guardsmen in the top 25. I remember the discussion around it clearly. So your source seems wrong nor you haven’t checked properly.

Define ‘IG List’. Are you on about mono IG lists with no soup elements whatsoever?

I didn't see any mono-factions when I looked up lists. They were all soup. Pretty much my deffinition of an IG list is one where the major components of the list are IG. I've already said that those had a brigade, and all but one of those had six squads of IG IS's. No more than that. Which is the minimum requirement for a brigade. None of those lists took a 2nd guard battalion. Every list where another imperial army was the major faction, they took at best a battalion, usually the L32, sometimes a few mortar squads.

Most of the lists where they're taken it's either to make the requirements for a brigade, and even then, they only got upgrades a fraction of the time. At least a third of the lists left half their IS's with just las guns. The only thing else was the L32, usually just with a mortar team.
So, no. No one is spamming imperial guard infantry squads. (IGIS). They either take a battery, or the bare minimum for a brigade.

I play against 120-150 sometimes. Its strong.

In major ITC tournaments?

No one is saying 100+ guard are weak, we're saying it's not strong enough to be a major thing in big tournaments.

I tend to play pure infantry guard (perhaps with a few sentinels), and certainly no soup. This generally lets me put something north of 200 bodies on the table, and gives a pile of command points. In my experience, my infantry squads aren't undercosted, and even if they are, not by a whole point per model.

One big problem is that ultra-elites have become more and more common over the last few edition (custodes, knights, assorted other elite stuff), and that means that I'm facing 'armies' consisting of maybe thirty models sometimes (not counting the L32). This is one of the problems, because such small forces often are mostly equipped to deal with heavies instead of hordes. Sure, they can still wreck a few squads per turn, but that's about it. But in general, we still have fun games that remain fairly evenly matched.

The real problem with cheap troops (and HQ) is the command point system. This encourages minimum detachments to generate them in bulk, paired with a few real heavy hitters to take maximum benefit of them. For my massed infantry squads, they're nice to have, but they tend to really be a massive advantage for heavy-hitting units. This makes the best armies those with a few 'serious' units and some batteries.

To solve this without throwing the child put with the bathwater, the solution isn't in repointing the basic guardsmen, but rather to change command point generation and perhaps the order system.

Orders can seem silly yes, but to be honest, almost all auras seem silly. Because very obviously soldiers won't shoot as well as they cannin battle, unless their supervisor is there to watch over them. As far as I know, they're not bored office workers.

Issue here is guardmen are 4 ppm, termagants are 4 ppm.

Comparing them to me holy crap guardsmen are insanely better than the gant, whose supposed to be offebsively poor and just SWAMP things.

Guard without orders out damage gants, have better save and such easy access to better buffs. And then the options for special weapons and unsnipeable heavy weapons.

If people arguing guardsmen arent so good they justify a 5ppm cost (I definately think they need so!) Then Id like a cost reduction on tyranid gaunts/gants and maybe Guardian Defenders!

Don't forget that Tyranids are *actually* fearless and come in 30 strong blobs with a unit that can regenerate 10 for free. They also have easy access to a 5+ FNP and permanent cover despite their size.

They really aren't comparable.

I didn't read the rest of the thread but got the jist from a skim.

Perhaps as another view, may have been mentioned previously, maybe GW got the rules for AM in general right and it is all of the other factions that need a rework?

Arguably maybe not Drukhari.

Just a thought.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Issue here is guardmen are 4 ppm, termagants are 4 ppm.

Comparing them to me holy crap guardsmen are insanely better than the gant, whose supposed to be offebsively poor and just SWAMP things.

Guard without orders out damage gants, have better save and such easy access to better buffs. And then the options for special weapons and unsnipeable heavy weapons.

If people arguing guardsmen arent so good they justify a 5ppm cost (I definately think they need so!) Then Id like a cost reduction on tyranid gaunts/gants and maybe Guardian Defenders!

Bad comparison. Termagants point per point are MORE durable than guards, and with inbuilt fearless and higher squad numbers they are probably the best screen in the game.
Like all things though, models cannot be compared to each other, the faction counts. Tgants are insanely good screens, but no one has problems with it, since tyranids do not need screens.

Comparing models one to each other without context is rarely a good idea.


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 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I didn't read the rest of the thread but got the jist from a skim.

Perhaps as another view, may have been mentioned previously, maybe GW got the rules for AM in general right and it is all of the other factions that need a rework?

Arguably maybe not Drukhari.

Just a thought.

GW didn't get the rules for tactical marines (and GK) right, and that's it.

All other factions don't have big problems against mono AM. CWE, Tau, Newcrons, Drukhari, Orks, Demons, TSons, DG, DA, SW and yes even vanilla marines have fair games against AM on equal terms. There are MUCH bigger problems in the game than a faction whose heavy hitters are all costly models without invul saves.
AM are exceptional soup ingredients because they have really cheap HQs, cheap CPs and good screens. Mono AM are not a problem for the game.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You’ll also notice that no one is calling for 7ppm Guardsmen.

Marmatag does, IIRC.

I think Guardsmen should be 10 ppm. Of course I also think a basic Marine should be 27ish.

Spoletta wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Issue here is guardmen are 4 ppm, termagants are 4 ppm.

Comparing them to me holy crap guardsmen are insanely better than the gant, whose supposed to be offebsively poor and just SWAMP things.

Guard without orders out damage gants, have better save and such easy access to better buffs. And then the options for special weapons and unsnipeable heavy weapons.

If people arguing guardsmen arent so good they justify a 5ppm cost (I definately think they need so!) Then Id like a cost reduction on tyranid gaunts/gants and maybe Guardian Defenders!

Bad comparison. Termagants point per point are MORE durable than guards, and with inbuilt fearless and higher squad numbers they are probably the best screen in the game.
Like all things though, models cannot be compared to each other, the faction counts. Tgants are insanely good screens, but no one has problems with it, since tyranids do not need screens.

Comparing models one to each other without context is rarely a good idea.

How are terms more durable than guard? Lower sv and their fearless in synapse which carries a drawback when not in range, unlike guardsmen.

Also nids pay extra on the unit on synapse units, they shouldnt also pay extra for the units who NEED it to function.

Als9 best screen are grots, cheaper and act as shields for orkz, then guardsmen for bodues AND good shooting (crazy good shooting for the cost) then nids. Gaunts and gants lose out compared to 4ppm Guardsmen.

Tgants are either 5+ sv or 6+/6+++ which is better than 5+ against MW and weapons with higher AP.

Im not really a guard player but problem with them is (cause money):

1. They are such good sellers (cause of rules)
2. They are the mainstream of the Imperium (and they should be, though I never use unless in an IG army. I don't want plebs polluting my army)

Instead of go up in points, have we suggested just lower their LD ? (prob suggested before?)

Would make commissars more viable and make them use more command points.

Small change but something that could happen instead of pipe dreams

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

Instead of go up in points, have we suggested just lower their LD ? (prob suggested before?)

Would make commissars more viable and make them use more command points.

Small change but something that could happen instead of pipe dreams

That actually sounds like a reasonable change. Leadership 5 Guardsmen with a LD 6 Sergeant. It would make Leadership buffs more important, and could also make Veterans more appealing than Guardsmen. Not to mention put them more in line with their Chaos counterparts.

Spoletta wrote:
Tgants are either 5+ sv or 6+/6+++ which is better than 5+ against MW and weapons with higher AP.

So they CAN be more durable against weapons but they all have more to it than that.

For +1 save to equal 5+ they lose it in combat and when advancing/charging.

The 6+++ they need to be within 6" of synapse creature.


Guardsmen on the other hand have access to dimilar or better buffs for cheaper across their codex or souping in, whilst being the same price with vetter equipment and doctrines.

If gaunts are 4, IS are obviously 5 fir better firepower and survivability with no outside factors.

Stop buying guard and adding to every soup list and see what happend to the rules.

Until the sales go flat on guard , they will continue to dominate.

Pancakey wrote:
Stop buying guard and adding to every soup list and see what happend to the rules.

Until the sales go flat on guard , they will continue to dominate.

The game is dictated by 3 things (in my order):
1. Looks Cool
2. Looks average but has ok rules
3. Has good rules

If numpty or some1 who plays tourney 'is everything' player it looks like (these are vocal on chat sites but rare in RL):

1. Has great rules, looks like crap (idc what looks like, it is my jam)
2. Looks average, but has ok rules (maybe that, even if looks crap I may take)
3. Looks Cool, has crap rules (fuk that)

Exaggeration but is funny got to say

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

Instead of go up in points, have we suggested just lower their LD ? (prob suggested before?)

Would make commissars more viable and make them use more command points.

Small change but something that could happen instead of pipe dreams

That actually sounds like a reasonable change. Leadership 5 Guardsmen with a LD 6 Sergeant. It would make Leadership buffs more important, and could also make Veterans more appealing than Guardsmen. Not to mention put them more in line with their Chaos counterparts.

It's not. Commissars are NEVER going to be viable again. Period. End of story.

And they shouldn't be in line with Cultists. Cultists are the Conscript equivalent, not the Guardsman equivalent. Stop trying to make the two the same.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not. Commissars are NEVER going to be viable again. Period. End of story.

It's hardly beyond the realms of possibility. A single rule change and any unit can shoot up in viability.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not. Commissars are NEVER going to be viable again. Period. End of story.

It's hardly beyond the realms of possibility. A single rule change and any unit can shoot up in viability.

Primaris Commisar anyone????

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not. Commissars are NEVER going to be viable again. Period. End of story.

It's hardly beyond the realms of possibility. A single rule change and any unit can shoot up in viability.

It would require a reversion that they're too invested at this point to do. They've "reworked" the rule multiple times and it's still garbage.

Commissars are never going to be viable again. Anyone thinking they will be is deluding themselves. Commissars are trash and good fething riddance to those wastes of product space. Let the Renegades and Heretics have them, I'd rather get something useful in space of the two wasted slots(HQ and Elites) that they take up in my book and the product range.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not. Commissars are NEVER going to be viable again. Period. End of story.

It's hardly beyond the realms of possibility. A single rule change and any unit can shoot up in viability.

It would require a reversion that they're too invested at this point to do. They've "reworked" the rule multiple times and it's still garbage.

Commissars are never going to be viable again. Anyone thinking they will be is deluding themselves. Commissars are trash and good fething riddance to those wastes of product space. Let the Renegades and Heretics have them, I'd rather get something useful in space of the two wasted slots(HQ and Elites) that they take up in my book and the product range.

Why do you consider them a waste? Obviously they suck NOW, but the idea is sound.

I think they should remove orders for AM, that would stop them from doing post super human feats. Just give their officers the same reroll 1s to hit aura that everybody else has and call it a day. A 40-50 pts unit should not perform so extraordinarily.

They don't. 1-2 squads per officer does. The other 30 guardsmen are regular joes with a las gun and boot camp training.

Also, keep in mind, there's a hard limit to orders. Nine.