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Dudeface wrote:
But... I got all the points updates without paying for a chapter approved....

OK, basic Economics 101- While there is no direct cost for the app it is not free. The cost of the app is built into everything that GW sells. It's a hidden cost to whatever you're buying.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
But... I got all the points updates without paying for a chapter approved....

OK, basic Economics 101- While there is no direct cost for the app it is not free. The cost of the app is built into everything that GW sells. It's a hidden cost to whatever you're buying.

So the upcoming points updates won't be free, either? Darn it, I thought GW was finally doing a good thing

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
But... I got all the points updates without paying for a chapter approved....

OK, basic Economics 101- While there is no direct cost for the app it is not free. The cost of the app is built into everything that GW sells. It's a hidden cost to whatever you're buying.

That's of course true, whenever you buy their products your contribute to that greater funding pot.

And just to muddy the waters a bit more, the last MFM was made available on WHC for free, too - as long as you're OK with it being in French.

 Dysartes wrote:
And just to muddy the waters a bit more, the last MFM was made available on WHC for free, too - as long as you're OK with it being in French.

Applying the logic from Leo_the_Rat to muddy further, every plastic kit you buy helps pay for them to make more books, write more of those bad rules and develop that garbage app, even if you actively avoid supporting those thing.

 Rihgu wrote:

I actually wouldn't go so far to say that. I think (with no real evidence, honestly), that most people did pay for points and the updates. Anecdotally, from my group, almost everybody buys Chapter Approved when it releases even if they play 40k once every 6 months. I think they must just like to list build.

Anecdotal, but my experience is that the novelty of CA gradually wore off from 2017 and each year fewer and fewer people at my local club paid for it. By the time Nachmund rolled around only one person had begrudgingly bought a copy because he had an upcoming tournament. Of course he wasn't happy that the event required him to own it.

Most people I know just use battlescribe.

 xttz wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

I actually wouldn't go so far to say that. I think (with no real evidence, honestly), that most people did pay for points and the updates. Anecdotally, from my group, almost everybody buys Chapter Approved when it releases even if they play 40k once every 6 months. I think they must just like to list build.

Anecdotal, but my experience is that the novelty of CA gradually wore off from 2017 and each year fewer and fewer people at my local club paid for it. By the time Nachmund rolled around only one person had begrudgingly bought a copy because he had an upcoming tournament. Of course he wasn't happy that the event required him to own it.

Most people I know just use battlescribe.

Spiralbound with the full rules in it, it's JUST BARELY worth getting for the convenience.

 Rihgu wrote:
I actually wouldn't go so far to say that. I think (with no real evidence, honestly), that most people did pay for points and the updates. Anecdotally, from my group, almost everybody buys Chapter Approved when it releases even if they play 40k once every 6 months. I think they must just like to list build.

In our group, I doubt that there are more than two copies of the last installation between all of us. I bought the previous one and looked at it twice at most. You simple never need a book with points updates once battlescribe has updated.

 oni wrote:
I don't know how to even play this fething game anymore. It's literally changing every few months.

Warhammer Tourney-K is fething awesome; best edition ever.

It isn't changing dramatically. You still have secondaries, but now they'll all be printed in one spot. The mission mechanics aren't difficult, either. The only thing you have to "do" is rewrite your list with less good stuff.


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Tyel wrote:
Is it weird I'd almost go the other way? I.E. let every character unlock a WLT/Relic.

Gross. No.

I have a feeling this is going to get FAQed in a few weeks when there's a big internet hate campaign. HQs without toys are incredibly boring, and in a lot of cases very weak.

Also no.

Maybe it could get rolled back in 6 months, but that should depend on the impact and not the fickle whims of the mob.

Idk, I just feel like this will just result in a shift towards named characters

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Idk, I just feel like this will just result in a shift towards named characters

Gotta sell those $30 models somehow!


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
I don't know how to even play this fething game anymore. It's literally changing every few months.

Warhammer Tourney-K is fething awesome; best edition ever.

It isn't changing dramatically. You still have secondaries, but now they'll all be printed in one spot. The mission mechanics aren't difficult, either. The only thing you have to "do" is rewrite your list with less good stuff.


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Tyel wrote:
Is it weird I'd almost go the other way? I.E. let every character unlock a WLT/Relic.

Gross. No.

I have a feeling this is going to get FAQed in a few weeks when there's a big internet hate campaign. HQs without toys are incredibly boring, and in a lot of cases very weak.

Also no.

Maybe it could get rolled back in 6 months, but that should depend on the impact and not the fickle whims of the mob.

We could also have just let the Autarch situation slide and see what happened in 6 months instrad of letting the Eldar mob take over.

OR we can look at a situation, know GW is making a stupid decision, and call them out on it. The change isn't good, please just stop defending it.

I guess we'll see.
Case in point, Vipoid always argues the DE characters suck and have no flavour. I disagree, because WLT/Relics allow for buff Archon/choppy archon, multiple choppy Succubi and... well Haemis are a bit meh outside the AoR but vexator mask say is okay etc.

But without this they are just rubbish. An Archon doesn't kill a marine.

And this is true for many other factions. It may not impact tounaments - and perhaps therefore more casual players will just start with few/zero CP. But I think it will obviously make characters lame, and the game less fun as a result.

That isn't a problem with this change though, that is a problem with the characters not being designed well in the first place. No character should NEED artifacts or traits to be viable, regardless of how much they cost or how many players have.

It feels like some armies are being punished hard for the abuses of others.

In my experience, Chaos Knights really want to load up on warlord traits and relics because they just aren't killy/survivable enough without them, given the sheer volume of crazy buffs others can pile on. Now, I have to decide between important upgrades or having enough CP to do basic things like rotate shields (which now costs 2CP for anything bigger than a War Dog). All because Tyranids drop 3 stratagems on a unit at once?

My relationship with tournaments was tenuous, at best. I think I'm done.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
It feels like some armies are being punished hard for the abuses of others.

In my experience, Chaos Knights really want to load up on warlord traits and relics because they just aren't killy/survivable enough without them, given the sheer volume of crazy buffs others can pile on. Now, I have to decide between important upgrades or having enough CP to do basic things like rotate shields (which now costs 2CP for anything bigger than a War Dog). All because Tyranids drop 3 stratagems on a unit at once?

My relationship with tournaments was tenuous, at best. I think I'm done.

Tyranids don't really do that. In fact, none of the big 3 do. Their datasheets are so good that there's no REASON to waste 3 strats on one unit. Very few units in the game will survive a full dire avenger squad with just 1 buff strat.

The only time you see one of the big meta threats combo strats is if they're firing into a unit with a big DEFENSIVE combo.

The 'people are dumping CP into huge turn 1 alphastrikes!' is mostly a myth at this point.

The Grand Tournament books are actually the only books I buy (plus a single codex despite playing 4 factions in the last year - but I only bring the one faction to tournaments).

Reason:
As a tournament player, I want to signal to GW that I want regular updates to the matched play rules and I'm willing to give them my hard earned cash for those updates.

I also find it easier to look at the maps and missions.

I do however bring my GT2020 (maybe 21?) book as well as my Nachmund because that book has rules in it too. Gee Dubs please fix.

My tournament going buddy doesn't buy the GT books (or codexes) but does know how to spell wahapedia.

Therefore, I am reasonably confident none of the tournaments we go to require the books or he would have been booted out by now.

But, most tournament players on the tables around me have bought the GT book (and usually have their codex too).

Now, on to the points are currently free debate. My understanding is this (question marks for those parts I don't understand):
I buy the Ork codex.
I get a free(?) Warhammer app subscription.
I put the Ork codex code in.
I get Ork points updates.
I don't get to see Dark Eldar or Grey Knights points updates?
I would need to ask to scroll through my Dark Eldar or Grey Knight opponent's Warhammer app subscription to see their points?

Therefore it sounds like things are going to get better for those people not pirating points when this new PDF drops. Some wag might even use the phrase "I am happy that the points are now free" and in a technical way they are correct.

Also, it sounds like the GT pack will be cheaper now that the points book isn't included. This sounds good for me too.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
That isn't a problem with this change though, that is a problem with the characters not being designed well in the first place. No character should NEED artifacts or traits to be viable, regardless of how much they cost or how many players have.

If they're good WITHOUT traits/relics they're OP WITH them. The only reason that doesn't happen in Sigmar is because most characters are bad at fighting and most relics are terrible. 'Select one melee weapon you HERO is equipped with..." might as well read 'skip this entry' for how often they're useful.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

We could also have just let the Autarch situation slide and see what happened in 6 months instrad of letting the Eldar mob take over.

OR we can look at a situation, know GW is making a stupid decision, and call them out on it. The change isn't good, please just stop defending it.

Apples and oranges, dude.


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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
It feels like some armies are being punished hard for the abuses of others.

In my experience, Chaos Knights really want to load up on warlord traits and relics because they just aren't killy/survivable enough without them, given the sheer volume of crazy buffs others can pile on. Now, I have to decide between important upgrades or having enough CP to do basic things like rotate shields (which now costs 2CP for anything bigger than a War Dog). All because Tyranids drop 3 stratagems on a unit at once?

My relationship with tournaments was tenuous, at best. I think I'm done.

Your concerns are relative to the current state of affairs. You have not processed points, secondaries, missions, or even the dataslate that will come out with all of this.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
It feels like some armies are being punished hard for the abuses of others.

So a typical GW rules update, then?

No you don’t understand “x faction is screwed over because it’s my faction, Y faction makes out like bandits because it’s not my faction.”

Replace X and Y with whatever.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Idk, I just feel like this will just result in a shift towards named characters

Gotta sell those $30 models somehow!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
I don't know how to even play this fething game anymore. It's literally changing every few months.

Warhammer Tourney-K is fething awesome; best edition ever.

It isn't changing dramatically. You still have secondaries, but now they'll all be printed in one spot. The mission mechanics aren't difficult, either. The only thing you have to "do" is rewrite your list with less good stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Is it weird I'd almost go the other way? I.E. let every character unlock a WLT/Relic.

Gross. No.

I have a feeling this is going to get FAQed in a few weeks when there's a big internet hate campaign. HQs without toys are incredibly boring, and in a lot of cases very weak.

Also no.

Maybe it could get rolled back in 6 months, but that should depend on the impact and not the fickle whims of the mob.

We could also have just let the Autarch situation slide and see what happened in 6 months instrad of letting the Eldar mob take over.

OR we can look at a situation, know GW is making a stupid decision, and call them out on it. The change isn't good, please just stop defending it.

Generic characters are more than 30$ now and you have to buy multiples unless you magnetize. There's 0 monetary advantage to a player buying 1 55$ Celestine vs. 2-4 40$ Canonesses.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

We could also have just let the Autarch situation slide and see what happened in 6 months instrad of letting the Eldar mob take over.

OR we can look at a situation, know GW is making a stupid decision, and call them out on it. The change isn't good, please just stop defending it.

Apples and oranges, dude.

No it's not. It's the same apathetic "wait and see" attitude when it doesn't take someone smarter than a 6th grader to determine "hey GW did the double tap for balance again and it's bad a usual". There's nothing to WAIT AND SEE for. Name one time GW did a double tap for balance and it was a good idea.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Is it weird I'd almost go the other way? I.E. let every character unlock a WLT/Relic.

Gross. No.

Then again you said this. Heaven forbid the characters have some actual flavor behind them!

ERJAK wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
That isn't a problem with this change though, that is a problem with the characters not being designed well in the first place. No character should NEED artifacts or traits to be viable, regardless of how much they cost or how many players have.

If they're good WITHOUT traits/relics they're OP WITH them. The only reason that doesn't happen in Sigmar is because most characters are bad at fighting and most relics are terrible. 'Select one melee weapon you HERO is equipped with..." might as well read 'skip this entry' for how often they're useful.

That issue is one that is worked around by proper design. By keeping an eye on traits/artifacts being multiplicative or additive relative to what kind of characters they are going on is is a problem managed quite readily. It isn't all that difficult to design bonuses that do not run into this problem.

Also, to put it diplomatically... maybe avoid using AoS examples.


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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
It feels like some armies are being punished hard for the abuses of others.

In my experience, Chaos Knights really want to load up on warlord traits and relics because they just aren't killy/survivable enough without them, given the sheer volume of crazy buffs others can pile on. Now, I have to decide between important upgrades or having enough CP to do basic things like rotate shields (which now costs 2CP for anything bigger than a War Dog). All because Tyranids drop 3 stratagems on a unit at once?

My relationship with tournaments was tenuous, at best. I think I'm done.

Just go to tournaments and use the stratagem for 1CP. If they catch you go 'oops I got a rule wrong' then go back to 1CP the next game. There's no punishment.

Tyel wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The drop to 6 CP seems like a solid change. The removal of the basic WLT and Relic seems like an overcorrection.

Is it weird I'd almost go the other way? I.E. let every character unlock a WLT/Relic.

I have a feeling this is going to get FAQed in a few weeks when there's a big internet hate campaign. HQs without toys are incredibly boring, and in a lot of cases very weak.

If all things were equal...sure.

Of course that would make factions with good traits/relics even better.

The new system at least helps factions who have bad relics/traits as they can skip them, not lose much and comparatively to others gain CP.

Bad is then when datasheets so bad they need relics/traits to work...

Tyel wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The drop to 6 CP seems like a solid change. The removal of the basic WLT and Relic seems like an overcorrection.

Is it weird I'd almost go the other way? I.E. let every character unlock a WLT/Relic.

I have a feeling this is going to get FAQed in a few weeks when there's a big internet hate campaign. HQs without toys are incredibly boring, and in a lot of cases very weak.

I'd be happier if relics were unlimited (any character can have one) but just had points values instead. There's no reason for items like Shardgullet to be the same cost to the player as something like Gestation Sac, and come from the same limited pool.

It also seems like a bit of a waste printing 10-20 relics per faction if people are just taking the same one or two in every game as they're a limited resource.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
That isn't a problem with this change though, that is a problem with the characters not being designed well in the first place. No character should NEED artifacts or traits to be viable, regardless of how much they cost or how many players have.

If they're good WITHOUT traits/relics they're OP WITH them. The only reason that doesn't happen in Sigmar is because most characters are bad at fighting and most relics are terrible. 'Select one melee weapon you HERO is equipped with..." might as well read 'skip this entry' for how often they're useful.

That issue is one that is worked around by proper design. By keeping an eye on traits/artifacts being multiplicative or additive relative to what kind of characters they are going on is is a problem managed quite readily. It isn't all that difficult to design bonuses that do not run into this problem.

Also, to put it diplomatically... maybe avoid using AoS examples.


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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
It feels like some armies are being punished hard for the abuses of others.

In my experience, Chaos Knights really want to load up on warlord traits and relics because they just aren't killy/survivable enough without them, given the sheer volume of crazy buffs others can pile on. Now, I have to decide between important upgrades or having enough CP to do basic things like rotate shields (which now costs 2CP for anything bigger than a War Dog). All because Tyranids drop 3 stratagems on a unit at once?

My relationship with tournaments was tenuous, at best. I think I'm done.

Just go to tournaments and use the stratagem for 1CP. If they catch you go 'oops I got a rule wrong' then go back to 1CP the next game. There's no punishment.

Did... you just suggest cheating?

I just find it interesting how people can make definitive claims about one aspect having X impact on the meta, when we have at least two other big changes in the pipe that we have next to zero information about.

Wait and see is “let’s get the whole picture before judging it based on the bottom left corner”. I fully admit I am not a fan of the no free wlt and relic, but I am a fan of the 6CP limit. I think overall it will be healthier for the game, and the free wlt/relic can be walked back in the next 6 months if people are still upset about it after 3 weeks.

Any further restrictions are always going to hit certain armies more than others, however I genuinely think this will be better for the health of the game in the long run.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

We could also have just let the Autarch situation slide and see what happened in 6 months instrad of letting the Eldar mob take over.

OR we can look at a situation, know GW is making a stupid decision, and call them out on it. The change isn't good, please just stop defending it.

Apples and oranges, dude.

No it's not. It's the same apathetic "wait and see" attitude when it doesn't take someone smarter than a 6th grader to determine "hey GW did the double tap for balance again and it's bad a usual". There's nothing to WAIT AND SEE for. Name one time GW did a double tap for balance and it was a good idea.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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Tyel wrote:
Is it weird I'd almost go the other way? I.E. let every character unlock a WLT/Relic.

Gross. No.

Then again you said this. Heaven forbid the characters have some actual flavor behind them!

Getting GW to revise a model's datasheet is not comparable to the community having a gak fit over rules that they haven't even tried.

And nothing is stopping characters from having flavor. You just can't give ALL of them EVEYRTHING. Heaven forbid people have to make descisions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

We could also have just let the Autarch situation slide and see what happened in 6 months instrad of letting the Eldar mob take over.

OR we can look at a situation, know GW is making a stupid decision, and call them out on it. The change isn't good, please just stop defending it.

Apples and oranges, dude.

No it's not. It's the same apathetic "wait and see" attitude when it doesn't take someone smarter than a 6th grader to determine "hey GW did the double tap for balance again and it's bad a usual". There's nothing to WAIT AND SEE for. Name one time GW did a double tap for balance and it was a good idea.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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Tyel wrote:
Is it weird I'd almost go the other way? I.E. let every character unlock a WLT/Relic.

Gross. No.

Then again you said this. Heaven forbid the characters have some actual flavor behind them!

Getting GW to revise a model's datasheet is not comparable to the community having a gak fit over rules that they haven't even tried.

And nothing is stopping characters from having flavor. You just can't give ALL of them EVEYRTHING. Heaven forbid people have to make descisions.

Decisions would've been made with one fix. It's the same double tap that you've still not given an example where GW was correct on it.


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Also the two examples are completely comparable since you didn't actually try the rules for the limited types of Autarchs you could run. Or did you and found that the wings were too broken with access to the other options?

 Leth wrote:
I just find it interesting how people can make definitive claims about one aspect having X impact on the meta, when we have at least two other big changes in the pipe that we have next to zero information about.

Wait and see is “let’s get the whole picture before judging it based on the bottom left corner”. I fully admit I am not a fan of the no free wlt and relic, but I am a fan of the 6CP limit. I think overall it will be healthier for the game, and the free wlt/relic can be walked back in the next 6 months if people are still upset about it after 3 weeks.

Any further restrictions are always going to hit certain armies more than others, however I genuinely think this will be better for the health of the game in the long run.

That's part of the problem. They're changing so many things at once it's impossible to tell what did what and how to fix it if it creates problems.

Say Eldar shoot up to 80% winrate after this; is it the mission changes, secondary changes, point changes, cp changes, or relic/wt changes that did it?