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 Shakalooloo wrote:

The difference is, Necromunda keeps releasing new stuff for each gang, adding brutes, vehicles, hired guns etc. rather than swathes of new factions.

Necromunda also clearly exists (along with some other specialist games) in part to cater to the audience who don't want to have regularly changing rules they have to keep checking online. That is literally a selling point to some people.

Dudeface wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 kodos wrote:
it should be, but the last teams we got were just "not enough slots for that game at the factory so we just use the slots for the other game to make it"

There had been a thread of that happening for sure, it's still better than no releases if it pumps up the Kill Teams sales numbers and makes it look popular however, especially if it ends up with a mix of kooky and "stock 40k squad with more stuff".

with the result that there are now too many teams and we need to accept that generic Teams are gone and the dedicated Teams are also not there to stay

I would have preferred less releases but therefore dedicated Kill Teams rather than 40k lite as that it was kills the game, if it is just a vehicle to release new 40k boxes and not its own game, people lose interest

And here in this thread are a lot of complaints people can't just slap down some Intercessors and play now.

There's clearly a lot of very opposing view points and opinions on this and seemingly people are just annoyed for whatever subjective personal reason whilst not swaped by the objective reasoning for it.

Wich is what I said, the generic teams, like Intercessors as Compendium and the special ones like Exotides as boxed team
Releasing 40k units as KT was a mistake and now removing all generic ones is one too

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 kodos wrote:
it should be, but the last teams we got were just "not enough slots for that game at the factory so we just use the slots for the other game to make it"

There had been a thread of that happening for sure, it's still better than no releases if it pumps up the Kill Teams sales numbers and makes it look popular however, especially if it ends up with a mix of kooky and "stock 40k squad with more stuff".

with the result that there are now too many teams and we need to accept that generic Teams are gone and the dedicated Teams are also not there to stay

I would have preferred less releases but therefore dedicated Kill Teams rather than 40k lite as that it was kills the game, if it is just a vehicle to release new 40k boxes and not its own game, people lose interest

And here in this thread are a lot of complaints people can't just slap down some Intercessors and play now.

There's clearly a lot of very opposing view points and opinions on this and seemingly people are just annoyed for whatever subjective personal reason whilst not swaped by the objective reasoning for it.

Wich is what I said, the generic teams, like Intercessors as Compendium and the special ones like Exotides as boxed team
Releasing 40k units as KT was a mistake and now removing all generic ones is one too

I'm confused at this point. How can releasing Kill Teams based on 40k units be a mistake, but then removing Kill Teams based on 40k units also be a mistake?

At least the mandrakes and most others have specialists, wargear and sculpts designed to make some minis stand apart as a Kill team. The Compendium teams are very literally 'what if my 40k army, but Kill team'.

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Why?

because than it is not a wargame any more but a miniature livestyle game

and any other company but GW doing that thing with miniatures can close their doors after the announcement for a wargame

And maybe (whisper it...) that is the case. Maybe Kill Team isn't a wargame. Small number of figures, limited list-building options, new edition introducing more in ways of card play... at the very least it exists somewhere on the border between a traditional wargame and a mins-based board game. And there's this continuing push for it to be more like the former when actually it'd be a more enjoyable experience all around if it was more like the latter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 kodos wrote:
it should be, but the last teams we got were just "not enough slots for that game at the factory so we just use the slots for the other game to make it"

There had been a thread of that happening for sure, it's still better than no releases if it pumps up the Kill Teams sales numbers and makes it look popular however, especially if it ends up with a mix of kooky and "stock 40k squad with more stuff".

with the result that there are now too many teams and we need to accept that generic Teams are gone and the dedicated Teams are also not there to stay

I would have preferred less releases but therefore dedicated Kill Teams rather than 40k lite as that it was kills the game, if it is just a vehicle to release new 40k boxes and not its own game, people lose interest

And here in this thread are a lot of complaints people can't just slap down some Intercessors and play now.

Of course there are. If I'm a big 40K fan, Kill Team previously offered a cheap alternative way to play a different sort of game over a smaller time period with fewer figures. For free if I already had the minis and terrain and could get the rules online. It's absolutely 100% understandable why such people would be annoyed that that is going away.

But what I'm less a fan of is the argument that this is therefore bad for Kill Team, the game itself. For people who actually enjoy playing it for what it is. It does throw up a barrier to entry for sure. Which might reduce the player base. That's fair. But there's a point that if you want the game to be taken seriously, it has to put on its big boy pants and stand up on its own as its own game, on its own merits. Not as a value add for players of 40K. That's what is happening now. And that yes, that means 40K players are losing a value-add. Though one can argue the niche of smaller, quicker 40K games with limited list building is now fulfilled by Combat Patrol.

The discussion of "factions" is coming from the same place. Kill Team literally redefines factions as teams in the rules. Kommando is a faction. Karskin is a faction. At no point anywhere in the Kill Team rules is the 40K "parent" faction referenced. Nothing special happens if Scout Squad fights Intercession. They don't interact at all. There's not even a keyword in the dataslates to allow them to interact in some theoretical future release.

I do appreciate that existing players (and even lapsed players) will have preference for certain 40K factions based on nostalgia or liking the lore or whatever, but again, if the game is to truly stand alone, that's much less relevant. And the further we get away from this the greater the chance we can get a few more properly weird Kill Teams that don't fit into the traditional factions at all.

The relevance of major factions to Kill Team is that those factions have a presence outside of the game systems of W40k and Kill Team, and Kill Team is favourable to new GW wargamers due to its low starting investment.

For example, Space Marine 2 is a new game featuring Space Marines and Tyranids. Someone plays this cool hack-and-slash game and thinks the Tyranids are awesome. They do a bit of searching- turns out you can get models of these, and there are rules to play them! Also, some of the rules are for a small skirmish game called Kill Team that looks a bit easier to start with. Hang on... where are the Tyranids? Maybe I'll do something else...

Covering the core factions of the 40k setting is a good idea to me. Plenty of players found out about 40k from video game sources, there is a whole generation from Dawn of War for example.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Hopefully the new edition will entice new players, but for minimal effort they could have had a few more.

A few more what? People that don't buy Killteam minis? Not taking a side in the argument of if it is right or not, but I'd wager GW doesn't care about losing players that don't buy the product.

Players. Why? Because even though GW has backed off the idea the games don't matter at all, a lot of people will pick up games others play. Why do people play 40k? The stunning rules? Or because that is what people locally play. I would care about new sales. To do that I want new customers to see the game being played and have a chance to play it. Bonus if there is a power imbalance to give the new guys more of a chance.

Dudeface wrote:

Are you expecting them to make casual only rules for 70+ Kill Teams, all with unique functions?

I mean I could literally convert all the needed (i.e. no equivalent) legacy teams in a single work week with a spot of playtesting, aiming at a 45% win rate to put them into a second tier, to enable casual players to continue and make my product more attractive to new purchasers, with a secondary task of converting them into customers. Strip out most of the complicated rules for them and leave them as simple, rules light and easy to pick up teams. As a company with GWs turnover I reckon I could outsource that for a grand and not be too fussed.

Dudeface wrote:

That's ignoring the fact that these Kill Teams can't be purchased *snip*

The 'core' compendium teams normally can be and those are the ones disappearing first. For the bespoke stuff that doesn't otherwise get made, sure. Again this is about upping player counts to make a game viable and sales better.

 Haighus wrote:
Where this gets wonky is that some absolutely classic units within the infiltration role will be getting retired from Kill Team. For example, Ork Kommandoes and Tau Pathfinders will no longer be part of Kill Team in about 3 years. These are very thematic units for Kill Team missions, and it feels very odd that they will loose support.

Yes - its odd that 'core/traditional' team team options would go.
In terms of 'evergreen/core teams' I would of thought given the background Deathwatch kill teams (funniest omission), Scouts, Scions, pathfinders, Kommandos, whatever those AdMech inilftrator/scouts are, scorpions+rangers, CSM chosen, 'Nid infiltrators and flayed ones or whatever Necrons use for infiltration. 10 core units, all using 40k boxes, no extra SKUs. Have whatever cast of rotating teams built around them.

(Personally why they didn't do terminators and stealers for the hulk season is totally beyond me.)

They don't have to be in the current tournament rotation, but should surely always have rules, and those rules should be pretty straightforward and lite so they can be gateway teams into the game and a source of casual players to ensure the game doesn't disappear and your sales go down with it.

So, no KT preorder next week (TOW chaos MTO instead) - when do we think this is happening? They’ve been doing previews so t should be soon but I guess they haven’t gone into super detail yet either. Week after next? 21/09?

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Hopefully the new edition will entice new players, but for minimal effort they could have had a few more.

A few more what? People that don't buy Killteam minis? Not taking a side in the argument of if it is right or not, but I'd wager GW doesn't care about losing players that don't buy the product.

Players. Why? Because even though GW has backed off the idea the games don't matter at all, a lot of people will pick up games others play. Why do people play 40k? The stunning rules? Or because that is what people locally play. I would care about new sales. To do that I want new customers to see the game being played and have a chance to play it. Bonus if there is a power imbalance to give the new guys more of a chance.

That's definitely one way to do it. You can try and essentially entice people to play it by letting them use their existing models.

There is another way though. You can just make a really good game. Sometimes, those two options are in conflict. I'm pleasantly surprised when any company takes the "make a good game" route over the easier one.

(And frankly, playing with compendium teams, beyond anything else, is *such* a different gaming experience to playing with bespoke teams. I suspect that's why it's actually gone. I know there's a mindset that says simpler = easier to get into = good introduction to the game. But it can also just as quickly lead people to dismiss the game as too simple and boring. That could well be the real reason that they are gone. That the designers don't want that experience to be what Kill Team is.)

The problem is, if you want the game to provide diverse playstyles and unique gimmicks for the factions, you need to keep the total number of teams manageable or the barrier to entry of the game is too high. If every team has such a unique mechanic that your first time against them you lose until you “get” how they function and you have 70 teams, that’s a lot of losses for a new player. Alternatively you can have a huge number of teams but they’ll need to be more similar mechanically.

Another way to minimise rules bloat is not creating new rules for new models when it is unnecessary.

Do Kasrkin, Scions, and Aquilons need different rules? No. They are fundamentally the same unit (elite stormtroopers in carapace armour) and a unified entry could encompass all their options.

The Scion rules from Ashes of Faith were essentially identical to the Kasrkin rules, with a couple of options removed that weren't present in the Scion kit (like the demo charge and sniper hotshot). They could easily be consolidated.

GW doesn't like doing this these days, but it is a valid approach.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
So, no KT preorder next week (TOW chaos MTO instead) - when do we think this is happening? They’ve been doing previews so t should be soon but I guess they haven’t gone into super detail yet either. Week after next? 21/09?

I think they mentioned pre-order in September and shipping early October. With the usual 2 weeks pre-order window, that would mean pre-orders on Sept 21 or Sept 28 (Sept 14 pre-orders will ship on Sept 28).

This might be copium, but when they announced the slower paced schedule for the rest of 2024 my first thought was that GW are trying to return to 1-week preorders again. Doing that would first require at least one filler/MTO release week, and here we are...

However I kinda expect to see Blood Angels first. If announced next Sunday that would put them 4 weeks after the army box, which is fairly typical for marines. Kill Team preorder on Sept 28th feels most likely to me.

One thing I do find a little peculiar - they have literally announced the expiration date of some kill teams (Night Lords and Mandrakes, possibly others?) before they've actually announced the release date - aside from the starter box that was on pre-order for all of an hour or so before selling out...

If you make teams fundamentally the same rules wise, you've no need to buy the new ones, if you want to up player count that will only be relevant in a world where that translates to sales. Regards balancing all teams in a weekend for a grand, crack on, your gaming group will be well covered.

There's isn't another manageable outcome that doesn't leave the game stagnating or bloated and hemorrhaging investment to players just plucking some models out their 40k army.

I'd argue 40k suffers from stagnating, bloating and often hemorrhaging investment, but then people are always quick to remind how it's not a great game for those reasons.

That is assuming that new rules are the only reason to buy new models... yet GW supported multiple lines for purely cosmetic variants of units for over two decades when it was a much smaller company.

I think it is likely that changing rules encourages more purchases of models in the short term, but churn also burns customers out in the long term and it clearly isn't necessary based on GW's own product history.

Dudeface wrote:


I'd argue 40k suffers from stagnating, bloating and often hemorrhaging investment, but then people are always quick to remind how it's not a great game for those reasons.

Yup, and it's understandable to an extent because it has to support decades worth of players with investments of £1000s in models and painting time. I don't think it's okay what they did with Stormcast Sacrosanct to be honest. The hobby of large scale wargaming as a whole includes the whole modelling/collecting/painting aesthetics to a huge degree and it *has* to balance those.

Kill Team is different. A team is 5-10 models. It's okay not to support those indefinitely. And it's never going to look amazing on the table at that scale anyway, not in the same way. They can focus more on the game instead.

The one group of people most impacted with this change is the people who brought all of the season 1 Kill Teams. All of the Octarius teams from start to finish. They've built and painted all of them (and the terrain) and it's all going away in three years. Those 10 Kill Teams probably took similar effort to a small army.

And yet, that's the one group you are not seeing complain. Or at least, I'm not. Most of those people, the people actually "losing" loads of teams they painted, are also invested enough in the game to understand it's a good move in the longer term.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/09/kill-teams-of-the-imperium-enforce-the-emperors-will-in-the-new-edition/


New rules and info for the Imperial Kill Teams.

 Haighus wrote:
The relevance of major factions to Kill Team is that those factions have a presence outside of the game systems of W40k and Kill Team, and Kill Team is favourable to new GW wargamers due to its low starting investment.

For example, Space Marine 2 is a new game featuring Space Marines and Tyranids. Someone plays this cool hack-and-slash game and thinks the Tyranids are awesome. They do a bit of searching- turns out you can get models of these, and there are rules to play them! Also, some of the rules are for a small skirmish game called Kill Team that looks a bit easier to start with. Hang on... where are the Tyranids? Maybe I'll do something else...

Covering the core factions of the 40k setting is a good idea to me. Plenty of players found out about 40k from video game sources, there is a whole generation from Dawn of War for example.

From GW's perspective, this is what Combat Patrol is for. They want new players to buy the bigger army in a box for 'cut down 40k'.

Today’s article is a compilation of micro-previews for various imperial kill teams.

Curious about renaming the veteran guard team; makes me wonder if other named regiments are going to get their own Teams.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Today’s article is a compilation of micro-previews for various imperial kill teams.

Curious about renaming the veteran guard team; makes me wonder if other named regiments are going to get their own Teams.

We must SURELY get a Catachan Kill Team at some point, more knife-y than the regular team.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Today’s article is a compilation of micro-previews for various imperial kill teams.

Curious about renaming the veteran guard team; makes me wonder if other named regiments are going to get their own Teams.

We must SURELY get a Catachan Kill Team at some point, more knife-y than the regular team.

I think it is likely we will see more specific Guard teams given the renaming of the vet guardsmen to DKoK. That also feels like preparation for the DKoK kit to be repacked into a 40k box for the DKoK unit in 40k, which doesn't currently have a box labelled as such.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Today’s article is a compilation of micro-previews for various imperial kill teams.

Curious about renaming the veteran guard team; makes me wonder if other named regiments are going to get their own Teams.

We must SURELY get a Catachan Kill Team at some point, more knife-y than the regular team.

I use Kasrkin rules for my Catachan Jungle Fighters.



Between Elite Points and ubiquitous Combat Blade equipment, they do knife work just fine

[quote=Haighus 814445 11695517 5cb629f12cb23744a3f9b727773e6842.jpg
Do Kasrkin, Scions, and Aquilons need different rules? No. They are fundamentally the same unit (elite stormtroopers in carapace armour) and a unified entry could encompass all their options.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Do Kasrkin, Scions, and Aquilons need different rules? No. They are fundamentally the same unit (elite stormtroopers in carapace armour) and a unified entry could encompass all their options.

I don't disagree that it could be done; it could be.

But come on Haighus, you don't really want this, do you? This idea is so bad it could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch.

And not just in terms of the game or creativity, but in a business sense. If you've got one profile that can be served by 3 different models, you'll sell 1/3 of the models. And the team that sells the least will ALWAYS be on the block.

I would absolutely want this.

But ultimately I want Kill Team v1 back, and the breadth of modelling and team options it had.

I don't think this was posted here yet?

https://new.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/1fcol8u/kill_team_hivestorm_leaks/

Somebody apparently got hold of a box and is trying to sell it and this person on reddit reached out for images on a bunch of stuff

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/10/kill-teams-of-the-aeldari-outwit-outmaneuver-and-overwhelm/

Yeah...got a feeling the Void-Dancer team will be replaced in the near future.

SamusDrake wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/10/kill-teams-of-the-aeldari-outwit-outmaneuver-and-overwhelm/

Yeah...got a feeling the Void-Dancer team will be replaced in the near future.

some sort of new harlequin kill team would certainly be fun. maybe we finally get a mime kit, or more restrainedly, i would be interested in seeing what an upgrade sprue could do for troupes

Bring back Mimes, but lean into it. Give them psychic barriers that block movement and projectiles but not line of sight. Let them trap people in transparent boxes and pull themselves up walls using invisible rope. One Specialist can be a Hush that reduces enemy APL by making it so they can’t hear anything.

Harlequins are like a mocking reflection of Slaanesh- give them a band. Weaponized and psychic wraithbone instruments that could fit in to give harlequins more special and heavy weapon options than just fusion pistols and the Death jester

SamusDrake wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/10/kill-teams-of-the-aeldari-outwit-outmaneuver-and-overwhelm/

Yeah...got a feeling the Void-Dancer team will be replaced in the near future.

Hopefully not too soon, a bunch of factions are going to have no kill teams while the extended Aeldari have four even with Void-Dancers getting retired. Sisters of Silence seem like a hint for an upcoming Imperial one.