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Miguelsan wrote: No Nids team means 0 reasons to move to new KT rules. Got a couple friends whose teams will be in the same situation. I guess it's more current KT time for us.
Money saved!
M.
Youll get the free rules as they get released, I'd say its ok for the price
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
Took a look at co-op/solo rules presented in the newest article, and I am not sure what to think
On one hand it is absolutely cool that this exists, and I will try it out for sure, especially when teaching the game. It is also a great excuse to paint some enemy models!
On the other, I wish GW had taken advantage of the experience of co-op board game designers, who have worked for decades on optimising the automa player in their games. As it is, I expect the problem of automa actions taking longer than actual player actions to arise quite frequently, resulting in a game where set up, tear down, upkeep and cranking the automa engine take up 80% of time spent with the game.
Board games have discovered quite a long time ago, that, for better flow and less downtime, it's ok for automa enemies to follow simpler rules than those for player characters (factions etc). It's the results that matter, not the processes.
Guess I will have to wait and see, my hopes for this mode are pretty high
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/23 14:32:49
They seen fine to me. Abstracting the specific models to just archetypes so you can use whatever you like for the enemies, and only two behaviour types - melee or shooting - and no complicated flow chart etc.
I bet there will be more NPO profiles going forward. We are going to need cards to keep track of em all..?
I kind of like how the "AI" behaviour is separated from the specs of an NPO, but it has bloat potential
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/08/23 15:29:01
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
deano2099 wrote: I'm mostly disappointed that it's basically a solo mode with an optional "split the units between two players to play co-op".
Would have been nicer to just have it scale to one or two full KTs.
If popular - WD gets enough readers' letters praising how its non-competitive nature introduced spouse/child/dog to GW games - there will of course be further splatbooks with expanded rules for people to buy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/23 17:21:48
The new edition does look promising, most of the little changes i've seen so far look positive. The loss of some compendium teams will be unfortunate though. Custodes were great for people who just wanted to paint a few models and play quickly. And now there won't be a SoB team in proper power armor. Hopefully they remedy that with future releases.
It's Kill Team. The rules are going to be journeyman quality game design, nothing to make anyone go "OMG, I can't believe they thought of that for a game mechanic." But they'll have the tremendous advantage of being published in a book.
To be fair, the Conceal/Engage order mechanic was fairly innovative in KT’21 that really makes KT unique and is tactically interesting feature. I do think it was an OMG moment in design.
I agree with both of you, actually. KT bears the hallmarks of "same old, same old" of GW designs but also is surprisingly not-GW-like in enough areas to make me interested in it (orders are a good example of that, and indeed they are a nice way to represent sneaking and hiding - something previous iterations of the mode failed at).
That said, it would be nice for GW to sometimes outsorce game design talent from outside of their bubble - for example trying to hire David Turczi to design the solo mode. Or whomever designed the solo mode for Terra Mystica - this thing is a beauty! I never thought you can design an automa for such a complex game, that is very non-player like in its execution for much less friction and downtime but extremely player-like in its results, including being unpredictable but absolutely cunning and mean.
Well, I for one think that Elliott Hamer is among the best games designers in the GW roster at the moment. KT21 is his baby. I personally rate KT21 core rules a lot higher than 40Ks, at least the game gives you some choices of playstyles instead of "piles all the models at the centre of the board and roll as many 6s as possible" of the 40K meat grinder
In my fantasy skirmish game of my dreams, I could play something comparable to KT21 with 2nd ed 40K armies. But alas, I suppose it is never going to happen.. the game core rules still dont seem to be able to deal with vehicles and monsters, and probably never will
As for the lost Compendium teams, I always had a feeling they were a stopgap measure, and therefore temporary.. since each KT season introduces 8 new bespoke teams, it wont be long until those gaps will be filled again. However, maybe some 40K factions actually make more sense as "goons" than actual Kill Teams, at least in the narrative sense..?
I could sort of see Joint Ops as something that could mutate into Metal Gear Solid -esque playstyles as well.. Take those goons, add in the Sentries rules from KT: Moroch, and you're already well on your way into a sneaky sneaky infiltration game, wouldnt be far off anyway
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2024/08/24 08:58:35
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
tauist wrote: Well, I for one think that Elliott Hamer is among the best games designers in the GW roster at the moment. KT21 is his baby. I personally rate KT21 core rules a lot higher than 40Ks, at least the game gives you some choices of playstyles instead of "piles all the models at the centre of the board and roll as many 6s as possible" of the 40K meat grinder
Yup, I was very determined never to touch a GW game again, seeing how bad their designs were compared to the landscape of modern gaming, but some of my friends kept saying that I should try out KT21 and that it is not like other GW games - smart and decision based, not tedious, random and boring. I refused to believe that, but after a year or so I gave in and gave KT21 a try ... and what do you know?! My friends were right, to my profound surprise
I predict that the Compendium will either come back with an update or every single faction will get multiple bespoke teams.
They did this with Warcry- it was only going to be chaos war bands and then eventually opened it up to almost every model in the range. For balancing and competitive play the bespoke teams are better..
Jammer87 wrote: I predict that the Compendium will either come back with an update or every single faction will get multiple bespoke teams.
They did this with Warcry- it was only going to be chaos war bands and then eventually opened it up to almost every model in the range. For balancing and competitive play the bespoke teams are better..
the only factions missing bespoke kill teams are Talons, 'Nids, GK, DG, and WE (who don't even have a compendium team). Talons and GK i could see going without a team (although i'm pulling for a bespoke SoS team to bring some of the HH stuff to 40k)
she/her
i have played games of the current edition
I agree. 'Nids, DG and WE could easily get bespoke teams and I don't think it would be difficult to balance them. I didn't see GSC on their website, but I'm not sure if they were in a boxed set I missed or maybe already previewed?
I don't know enough about Talons or GK to know what elements in their armies would appear.
AdMec? SoB? Demons? I think KT has quite a few bands to put out if they're going to kill the compendium.
Jammer87 wrote: I agree. 'Nids, DG and WE could easily get bespoke teams and I don't think it would be difficult to balance them. I didn't see GSC on their website, but I'm not sure if they were in a boxed set I missed or maybe already previewed?
I don't know enough about Talons or GK to know what elements in their armies would appear.
AdMec? SoB? Demons? I think KT has quite a few bands to put out if they're going to kill the compendium.
GSC have two teams, a white dwarf team and a recent bespoke team
also i forgot about demons lol, but they could very easily lend to something weird and fun
she/her
i have played games of the current edition
Jammer87 wrote: I predict that the Compendium will either come back with an update or every single faction will get multiple bespoke teams.
They did this with Warcry- it was only going to be chaos war bands and then eventually opened it up to almost every model in the range. For balancing and competitive play the bespoke teams are better..
the only factions missing bespoke kill teams are Talons, 'Nids, GK, DG, and WE (who don't even have a compendium team). Talons and GK i could see going without a team (although i'm pulling for a bespoke SoS team to bring some of the HH stuff to 40k)
You can already include 5 SoS in an Inquisition team - all swords build contrasts nicely with the shooty inq agents, for example
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/25 16:23:50
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
tauist wrote: Well, I for one think that Elliott Hamer is among the best games designers in the GW roster at the moment. KT21 is his baby. I personally rate KT21 core rules a lot higher than 40Ks, at least the game gives you some choices of playstyles instead of "piles all the models at the centre of the board and roll as many 6s as possible" of the 40K meat grinder
Yup, I was very determined never to touch a GW game again, seeing how bad their designs were compared to the landscape of modern gaming, but some of my friends kept saying that I should try out KT21 and that it is not like other GW games - smart and decision based, not tedious, random and boring. I refused to believe that, but after a year or so I gave in and gave KT21 a try ... and what do you know?! My friends were right, to my profound surprise
Cyel, I’m glad you finally took the dive into KT’21. If you want another modern game design issued by GW, I highly recommend Warhammer Underworlds. It’s a boardgame, not a minis game, but man is it good. In my book, it surpasses KT’21 in certain aspects. I also believe Blitz Bowl fits the criteria and is a pretty good offering.
tauist wrote: Well, I for one think that Elliott Hamer is among the best games designers in the GW roster at the moment. KT21 is his baby. I personally rate KT21 core rules a lot higher than 40Ks, at least the game gives you some choices of playstyles instead of "piles all the models at the centre of the board and roll as many 6s as possible" of the 40K meat grinder
Yup, I was very determined never to touch a GW game again, seeing how bad their designs were compared to the landscape of modern gaming, but some of my friends kept saying that I should try out KT21 and that it is not like other GW games - smart and decision based, not tedious, random and boring. I refused to believe that, but after a year or so I gave in and gave KT21 a try ... and what do you know?! My friends were right, to my profound surprise
Cyel, I’m glad you finally took the dive into KT’21. If you want another modern game design issued by GW, I highly recommend Warhammer Underworlds. It’s a boardgame, not a minis game, but man is it good. In my book, it surpasses KT’21 in certain aspects. I also believe Blitz Bowl fits the criteria and is a pretty good offering.
Oh, I tried Underworlds soon after it came out but disliked it very much. The terrible P2W scheme (buy all teams to get OP cards) was enough to put me off, but gameplay also wasn't too exciting - the P2W (cards you had) and random elements felt like they had far more impact than player decisions and agency (it was easier and better to get lucky with dice than to, say, set up supporting models to increase the odds - which is kind of a theme in GW games). Sold it quickly and never looked back.
The game that fulfills my craving for intellectual challenge and creative problem solving the most is Warmachine, but it is pretty impenetrable to an average player, and has a lot of barriers of entry, unfortunately :( A board game with an absolutely perfect concept for combat mechanics (incredibly deep and interactive but easy to understand and implement) is IMO Gloomhaven, but it's a co-op.
Still waiting for something as genius as Gloomhaven in the world of miniature wargames
New Kill Team: Hivestorm Lore article – all about the Aquilons.
Interesting to note that they aren’t retconning regular Scions to being ground pounders only; Aquilons are just the section that never deploys on foot/tank.
"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
** This does mean that kill teams from the Kill Team Compendium book will not have updated rules.
compendium teams aren't carrying over? wonder what'll happen for nids, talons, and anything else that doesn't have a KT equivalent
A terribly lazy move. For the price of an intern spending a week figuring out word, they have lost half the players in my area. No one was going to tournies, but they were playing odd games, buying the odd bit to use their death guard, custodes, 'stealers, grey knights, Deathwatch (actual kill teams) and Orks/grotz. And of course everyone else will be very grateful for the drop in opponents.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/27 17:48:50
** This does mean that kill teams from the Kill Team Compendium book will not have updated rules.
compendium teams aren't carrying over? wonder what'll happen for nids, talons, and anything else that doesn't have a KT equivalent
A terribly lazy move. For the price of an intern spending a week figuring out word, they have lost half the players in my area. No one was going to tournies, but they were playing odd games, buying the odd bit to use their death guard, custodes, 'stealers, grey knights, Deathwatch (actual kill teams) and Orks/grotz. And of course everyone else will be very grateful for the drop in opponents.
so do you want well-written rules, or do you want rules that are written in half a week by someone still learning game design? people drag GW whenever they release rules that are anything less than perfect, but now that they're trying to tighten their focus for writing rules, they're getting gak for it. how can they win here?
she/her
i have played games of the current edition
I mean, simply porting over the Compendium army lists would have been simple enough to do if they wanted to. Clearly they felt that not enough people were using those lists for it to be worthwhile, but I suspect that The_Real_Chris's experience will be far from rare. To me this decision smacks of letting the trends of the high level competitive scene drive decisions that hurt the casual scene. Hopefully casual players will just continue having using the army lists from the Compendium, but I suspect that a lot of those players will just drop out of the game.
if an entire playgroup is so attached to the compendium teams as to quit over their removal, then wouldn't they simply collectively agree to keep playing the edition that still has those teams?
she/her
i have played games of the current edition
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