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Marines are fundamentally incompatible with the way the 8th edition works at the moment, a strong army should consist of 3 key elements :
- Cheap chaff that exists for the sole purpose of board control and deep strike screening
- Pure damage dealers who are extremely resilient to shooting and protected from deep strike via chaff
- Guaranteed burst damage in the form of extremely reliable deep strike

Marines fit none of the above roles because they are meant to be generalists and that's their downfall imo, a point decrease of always welcomed but it will not fix the fundamental problem that marines will always be paying extra for stats that they don't care about.

Radikus wrote:
Are we expecting any changes in CA? The knight meta has been pretty brutal for mono DG (even allied DG). I suspect knights will get nerfed a bit which will bring us back up. Best I am hoping for is a decrease in maybe in plague marines? Wishful thinking.

I'm honestly not expecting DG to get much, if any, attention in CA 2018. There's rumors flying around that the early codexes are getting some improvements, but what that means no one can be sure.

If anything, we will probably see a points increase on some units - Plagueburst Crawler comes to mind as a perfect candidate for an increase.

Finally got round to buying a plagueburst crawler and I'm really torn... plaguespitters or entropy cannon.

The way I see it, the former you use to just push forward with. The latter, they're designed to just sit at the back and thunk stuff over the board.

What are people's thoughts? Much appreciated in advance.

Magnetize them, there are few weapons in the game that are easier to magnetize than PBC sponsons.

lare2 wrote:
Finally got round to buying a plagueburst crawler and I'm really torn... plaguespitters or entropy cannon.

The way I see it, the former you use to just push forward with. The latter, they're designed to just sit at the back and thunk stuff over the board.

What are people's thoughts? Much appreciated in advance.

Do a custom mod for it. Then the weapon is whatever you want it to be. As long as you aren't taking multiple PBC with the same mod and calling them different weapons, then no one can balk at your list.

I think DG is in a good place, other armies should be at our level, we shouldn't be above other armies. There are a lot of things I'd love to see, like Lord of contagion with flail, chaos lords with DR, and terminator blight launchers to be a profile between the plague marine one and the bloat drone one.

I don't think we will get anything big though. Maaaybe some changes to FW units to make them more or less useful.

I think Lords of Contagion need a tweak one way (sizeable drop in points) or the other. LoC is completely overshadowed by the Demon Prince, which is less survivable overall, but flat out better in every other way.

Giving LoC the "Lord of Nurgle" buff to allow units reroll 1's to hit would go a long way in increasing his viability. At his current cost, that buff alone would make me consider taking him.

And yes, Chaos Lord/Sorceror needs +1T and DR

I quite like the Terminator suggestion for Blight Launcher, increase the points by 5 and make it Assault 4. While their at it, Reaper Autocannon needs to be 2 damage.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Giving LoC the "Lord of Nurgle" buff to allow units reroll 1's to hit would go a long way in increasing his viability. At his current cost, that buff alone would make me consider taking him.

And yes, Chaos Lord/Sorceror needs +1T and DR

I quite like the Terminator suggestion for Blight Launcher, increase the points by 5 and make it Assault 4. While their at it, Reaper Autocannon needs to be 2 damage.

Was going to post similar so I'll just say same.

 buddha wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Giving LoC the "Lord of Nurgle" buff to allow units reroll 1's to hit would go a long way in increasing his viability. At his current cost, that buff alone would make me consider taking him.

And yes, Chaos Lord/Sorceror needs +1T and DR

I quite like the Terminator suggestion for Blight Launcher, increase the points by 5 and make it Assault 4. While their at it, Reaper Autocannon needs to be 2 damage.

Was going to post similar so I'll just say same.

Agree. I have been running Typhus in my past three games to test what I can do with him and the LoC aura is basically worth 0 points. It only triggers when your opponent has not fallen back from combat or not wiped out the unit he was charging for some reason, and even then only on a 4+.
Typhus is decent because he is a psyker, has some shooting and can cleave a predator straight in half. LoC can do none of that.
With no shooting options, 4" movement and halved advance rolls, I don't see why I would ever pick a LoC over a chaos lord in terminator armor.

Only reason is that the LoC is way more survivable against everything and works as a solo deep striker to charge an important back field unit and to take and hold an important objective in your opponent's deployment zone. He still isn't really worth it as 5 blight lords, while costing more, are just better at that in every way.
Again I had great success with mine but I will admit there are better choices.

I would really like it if DG Terminators remembered how to punch stuff... :(

 Brymm wrote:
Only reason is that the LoC is way more survivable against everything and works as a solo deep striker to charge an important back field unit and to take and hold an important objective in your opponent's deployment zone. He still isn't really worth it as 5 blight lords, while costing more, are just better at that in every way.
Again I had great success with mine but I will admit there are better choices.

All of those are relevant, but the biggest let down is how (mostly) pointless his aura is. Very situational and even then only works half the time. He needs a bit of work to be worth taking IMO, which is a shame because it's an awesome model.




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zerosignal wrote:
I would really like it if DG Terminators remembered how to punch stuff... :(

I use mine as infantry bullies which they do very well. They struggle against heavy armour but you've got other tools in the codex to deal with them.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
Only reason is that the LoC is way more survivable against everything and works as a solo deep striker to charge an important back field unit and to take and hold an important objective in your opponent's deployment zone. He still isn't really worth it as 5 blight lords, while costing more, are just better at that in every way.
Again I had great success with mine but I will admit there are better choices.

All of those are relevant, but the biggest let down is how (mostly) pointless his aura is. Very situational and even then only works half the time. He needs a bit of work to be worth taking IMO, which is a shame because it's an awesome model.

You mean a pair of awesome models. Remember there are two, as one came in the box set, and another was Lord Felthius with his Blightlord Terminator cohorts. Such a waste at present...

Best way for DG and Knights to deal with smash captains? Close screen on the big targets and plaguespitter/autocannon to death once he's been held up by chaff? Plus some smite Plaguecaster aura mortal wounds?

Bait him into charging a PBC by "accidentally" leaving it exposed. If the PBC dies blow it up for a CP and then gun him down. You'll still be even on points afterwards, and he will be down a bunch of CP and an important asset. If you get lucky and the PBC survives, even better.

I was thinking I'd screen the front of the main targets with my 3 PBCs and their rear with cultists so the only moderate value target he can charge is the autohit PBCs (I know the smash captains aren't the warlord so no overwatch deny)

What do you guys think about running Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard? As in, running two battalion detachments, one Death Guard, one Nurgle Daemons.

The Death Guard side can have MSUs of plague marines to camp on objectives, PBCs to run up and up spit on enemies, and a daemon prince to go ham with the Suppurating Plate and talons.

The Nurgle Daemon detachment can have large mobs of plaguebearers with nurglings to fill in the battalion requirement, with a poxbringer to help the plaguebearers and a Spoilpox Scrivener to help the plaguebeaers and the PBCs. All with 10 CP to have the PBCs explode, extra relics, and rerolls.

Thoughts?

 WhatATravesty wrote:
What do you guys think about running Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard? As in, running two battalion detachments, one Death Guard, one Nurgle Daemons.

The Death Guard side can have MSUs of plague marines to camp on objectives, PBCs to run up and up spit on enemies, and a daemon prince to go ham with the Suppurating Plate and talons.

The Nurgle Daemon detachment can have large mobs of plaguebearers with nurglings to fill in the battalion requirement, with a poxbringer to help the plaguebearers and a Spoilpox Scrivener to help the plaguebeaers and the PBCs. All with 10 CP to have the PBCs explode, extra relics, and rerolls.

Thoughts?

I prefer my DG detachments to be Spearheads or Outriders with Daemons galore to soup up an Epidemius in the ND Battalion, but sure, I can see that working. Might be worth experimenting with adding a Gnarlmaw as well.

Radikus wrote:
Are we expecting any changes in CA? The knight meta has been pretty brutal for mono DG (even allied DG). I suspect knights will get nerfed a bit which will bring us back up. Best I am hoping for is a decrease in maybe in plague marines? Wishful thinking.

1) Price increase for the PBC is inevitable; probably a 10+ point bump on the Chassis
2) Add DR and +1T to the Lords and Sorcs... make them nurgle for cryin out loud
3) Points drop on PM's (1 pt?), points drop on LoC (10 pts maybe), maybe a slight drop on defilers as they are still overcosted
4) I'd like to see a couple new relics, most of ours are bleh.... Suppurating Plate is literally the only great one.
5) Change the Demon Prince of Nurgles weapons to be plague weapons (even if its just the sword and axe), same with Entropy Cannons on the PBC
6) I wouldn't be surprised is DP's get a slight points bump if they do the above
7) Myphetic Blighthauler points drop

This is mostly wishlisting, I feel like we will get a points bump on PBC and thats all

There's never been a statline change on a unit in 8th after a codex, has there? I don't think that's something that's about to start.

nfe wrote:
There's never been a statline change on a unit in 8th after a codex, has there? I don't think that's something that's about to start.

After a codex? I don't think so, but there has been changes to index units to codex.

DudleyGrim wrote:

nfe wrote:
There's never been a statline change on a unit in 8th after a codex, has there? I don't think that's something that's about to start.

After a codex? I don't think so, but there has been changes to index units to codex.

CSM Predators had their damage tier thresholds changed (for the better). Not a huge leap, and perhaps one on an issue that might have been a typo all along, but it’s set the precedent.

 WhatATravesty wrote:
What do you guys think about running Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard? As in, running two battalion detachments, one Death Guard, one Nurgle Daemons.

The Death Guard side can have MSUs of plague marines to camp on objectives, PBCs to run up and up spit on enemies, and a daemon prince to go ham with the Suppurating Plate and talons.

The Nurgle Daemon detachment can have large mobs of plaguebearers with nurglings to fill in the battalion requirement, with a poxbringer to help the plaguebearers and a Spoilpox Scrivener to help the plaguebeaers and the PBCs. All with 10 CP to have the PBCs explode, extra relics, and rerolls.

Thoughts?

The Nurgle Daemons have the better troops (both of them) so there's not really a point in running a Deathguard Battalion, especially because neither codex is super hungry for stratagems outside of rerolls.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 WhatATravesty wrote:
What do you guys think about running Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard? As in, running two battalion detachments, one Death Guard, one Nurgle Daemons.

The Death Guard side can have MSUs of plague marines to camp on objectives, PBCs to run up and up spit on enemies, and a daemon prince to go ham with the Suppurating Plate and talons.

The Nurgle Daemon detachment can have large mobs of plaguebearers with nurglings to fill in the battalion requirement, with a poxbringer to help the plaguebearers and a Spoilpox Scrivener to help the plaguebeaers and the PBCs. All with 10 CP to have the PBCs explode, extra relics, and rerolls.

Thoughts?

The Nurgle Daemons have the better troops (both of them) so there's not really a point in running a Deathguard Battalion, especially because neither codex is super hungry for stratagems outside of rerolls.

Yeah, this is what I am more or less running (with knights!), its just too bad plague marines themselves aren't that great to take. I love the models, but for the points they are just too pricey.

Just to chime in on Plague Marines: they aren't bad. Not super efficient but very usable. Running three squads of double blight launcher with plasma champ gives some really good objective getting fire platforms that are hard to shift out of cover for only 118 pts a pop. The blight launchers are super reliable at putting out multi damage wounds onto whatever you need to put wounds on and are often ignored while the opponent tries to kill your super dangerous stuff.
If you want your troops to do nothing except not die, then yeah, plague bearers are better. Don't discount the Plague Marines because the internet says they arent the most efficient choice. They aren't playing or even watching your game, play the models you like and play them the best you can.

 Brymm wrote:
Just to chime in on Plague Marines: they aren't bad. Not super efficient but very usable. Running three squads of double blight launcher with plasma champ gives some really good objective getting fire platforms that are hard to shift out of cover for only 118 pts a pop. The blight launchers are super reliable at putting out multi damage wounds onto whatever you need to put wounds on and are often ignored while the opponent tries to kill your super dangerous stuff.
If you want your troops to do nothing except not die, then yeah, plague bearers are better. Don't discount the Plague Marines because the internet says they arent the most efficient choice. They aren't playing or even watching your game, play the models you like and play them the best you can.

This is true in general, if you try to put some wounds on bigger units and grab objectives.
However I find that my Plague Marines are just too points-inefficient to compete with the infantry of my main opponents (Guardsmen and Skitarii). They get obliterated by weapon fire my opponent has no other targets for anyways. Sure they are pretty survivable, but their Bolterfire (even with double-tap on 18") is very lackluster and the enemy just has so many more boots on the ground for the same points that he drowns Plague Marines in dice. I don't have the exact mathhammer results on me but it was something like 7 Plague Marines kill 2 Guardsmen a turn while taking 1 casualtiy statistically, which is 8pts vs 17pts killed. And that's without taking special weapons or buffs / orders into account.

 BleachHawk wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
Just to chime in on Plague Marines: they aren't bad. Not super efficient but very usable. Running three squads of double blight launcher with plasma champ gives some really good objective getting fire platforms that are hard to shift out of cover for only 118 pts a pop. The blight launchers are super reliable at putting out multi damage wounds onto whatever you need to put wounds on and are often ignored while the opponent tries to kill your super dangerous stuff.
If you want your troops to do nothing except not die, then yeah, plague bearers are better. Don't discount the Plague Marines because the internet says they arent the most efficient choice. They aren't playing or even watching your game, play the models you like and play them the best you can.

This is true in general, if you try to put some wounds on bigger units and grab objectives.
However I find that my Plague Marines are just too points-inefficient to compete with the infantry of my main opponents (Guardsmen and Skitarii). They get obliterated by weapon fire my opponent has no other targets for anyways. Sure they are pretty survivable, but their Bolterfire (even with double-tap on 18") is very lackluster and the enemy just has so many more boots on the ground for the same points that he drowns Plague Marines in dice. I don't have the exact mathhammer results on me but it was something like 7 Plague Marines kill 2 Guardsmen a turn while taking 1 casualtiy statistically, which is 8pts vs 17pts killed. And that's without taking special weapons or buffs / orders into account.

This. Plague Marines are pretty inefficient at 17pts a pop. The fact that they lack some more fluffy bolter ammo is also meh. Really irks me that codices (at least the rules part) are not written by a core team every time. But every author has his/her own take and this causes this weird disbalance between factions, if the author is a fanboy of the faction, you get something like AM, and when the author is lazy/careful you get something like DG. Copy paste units, copy paste strategems, handful of relics. Just meh.

How cool would it have been if we had some different bolter strategems for exotic plague ammunition? or with the plagueburst crawler or flamers being able to fire different cocktails of disease at their enemies. Nope, just bland plague weapons. Whatever. Hopefully CA alleviates some of the problems, but I'm not sure how bold GW is willing to go.

Plague marines definitely need a helping hand from CA. I’m reluctant to advocate for special things like the old school Sternguard special ammo but I do miss the old days of things being more unique. I’ve yet to run into situations where a pile of zombies aren’t more useful than Plague Marines which is a shame. Hopefully CA gives them a significant points reduction or an extra wound, something to show that Papa N cares about them slightly more than the walking dead.

Plague Marines are fine imo. They annoy my opponents, have good damage output even if somewhat short ranged and are a pain to remove, especially since usually there are more important things to shoot at (Bloat Drones, Princes) or because they use cover. I've had more success with them than with my Plague Bearers, who usually don't survive turn one despite being 30 strong. But since Daemons don't have other things all the firepower concentrates on them. And even if Plague bearers reach CC they are only okay with a scrivener and herold nearby, but for a pure CC-unit they don't have much punch.
Nurgle Daemons on their own are pretty hard to play imo, especially with rule of 3 in place. Without that you could spam herolds which are incredible for their point costs. Daemons supported by DG are fine, too. The DG can bring some firepower and distraction carnifexes which the daemons lack.