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Seems like all Codices written by Mat Ward got buffed and all Codices written by others (except SW and IG) got massively nerfed.
Who has written 6th edition rules? Mat Ward! A bit juvenile but figures

Fafnir wrote:Well, Tau can do well by being a solid pick for allies. Some of their units, such as broadsides, could end up being very potent alongside some other armies.

Space Marines... well, the whole "Jack of all trades, master of none" cliche really leaves them unable to offer anything to bolster any army in any meaningful way that another army can't do better.

Space Marines are definitely the better codex, comparing the two, but in terms of most relevant? It could be Tau, really.

Really? What about Vulcan-Vets

Really vulcan with his terminators is all they have to offer the IG or Anyone else will Melta Galore

Kroothawk wrote:Who has written 6th edition rules? Mat Ward!

Did he?

I thought the writing of the big rulebook was a process that involved a whole lot of people actually.

Kroothawk wrote:Seems like all Codices written by Mat Ward got buffed and all Codices written by others (except SW and IG) got massively nerfed.
Who has written 6th edition rules? Mat Ward! A bit juvenile but figures

Ward? juvenile?
Surely you jest!

(also, yeah, baring some sort of massive nerf via the new FAQ, it looks like the 'Crons are fast on their way to becoming top tier, thanks to all the ridiculous 'ole Matt gave us)

You never know. It might be like Ward's Marine Codex, awesome because of its extravagance and flashy nonsense and not like his latter efforts... including that one with the Grey Marines...

Kroothawk wrote:Seems like all Codices written by Mat Ward got buffed and all Codices written by others (except SW and IG) got massively nerfed.
Who has written 6th edition rules? Mat Ward! A bit juvenile but figures

Uh? The most nerfed army is Grey Knights. The most buffed army is debatable, but probably Dark Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, or Black Templars-- none of which were written by Mat Ward.

skoffs wrote:it loks like the 'Crons are fast on their way to becoming top tier, thanks to all the ridiculous 'ole Matt gave us)

Which I have mixed feelings about because it will now become a bandwagon army most likely.

But it's sure as hell still better than to see your army become something less than it was before...

TBD wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Who has written 6th edition rules? Mat Ward!

Did he?

I thought the writing of the big rulebook was a process that involved a whole lot of people actually.

There's normally a main author, Ward did the War of The Ring (Awful) and the Fantasy one, which Is the most decent thing i've ever seen him write, I've grown fond of fantasy alot recently!


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Fetterkey wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Seems like all Codices written by Mat Ward got buffed and all Codices written by others (except SW and IG) got massively nerfed.
Who has written 6th edition rules? Mat Ward! A bit juvenile but figures

Uh? The most nerfed army is Grey Knights. The most buffed army is debatable, but probably Dark Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, or Black Templars-- none of which were written by Mat Ward.

Don't tell me Tau!

"Oh so your Failguns would need 4+ to hit my Vendetta?"

"It's 6's now"

Kroothawk wrote:Seems like all Codices written by Mat Ward got buffed and all Codices written by others (except SW and IG) got massively nerfed.
Who has written 6th edition rules? Mat Ward! A bit juvenile but figures

The Reddit source said that Ward, Jeremy Vetok, and Adam Troke have principal credit with a vast supporting cast.

Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar will need their fliers or something with Skyfire. It may also be time to shift to bikes and jump pack troops for some armies. Transports just don't look as good as more and more Necron armies reanimate.

^ I don't see how Dark Eldar are "one of the most buffed armies". Wyches look to be almost worthless for example. I can't blame people who invested a lot of money into a Wych army to be slightly angry right now.

By reading everything in these threads so far Necrons seem to be the most buffed hands down.

Tau have become a cool ally option, so people can un-dust them and play them as such until a new codex comes out.

Tyranids and Black Templars remain to be seen.

And Grey Knights the most nerfed?? That is not the impression I get either.

Sigvatr wrote:
Haha, night fight throughout the entire game. Suck on that IG!

Night fight is different, though. According to the reddit rulebook guy, it's:

over 36" is untargetable

over 24" is +2 to cover saves

Over 12" is stealth (+1 to cover).

What isn't made clear to me is whether or not you get these saves if you do not have something other than night fight giving you cover, and if you don't, then night fighting only helps people in cover, and either way it still does not stop anyone within 36" from shooting you, evn if you do get a 3 or 4+ save. And, since most 'cron units cant really do anything outside of 36", that doesn't seem as much as it used to.

He has also said that night vision ignores the night fight rules entirely, meaning SW, DE, and to some extent Tau have a way around this.

We also--as far as i know--have no idea what search lights do, since the rolling to see things rules seem to be gone.

So, while all this night fighting may in fact be awesome, it could also be fairly lackluster/useless against some armies.

He must be referring to the hull point issue for GK razorback spam and Psyflemen dreads, but almost every army took the same bullet. It just means that GK may have to use Jokaero as their long range AT, and yes, that is a bit of a nerf. GK, dependent on apes!

JB wrote:He must be referring to the hull point issue for GK razorback spam and Psyflemen dreads, but almost every army took the same bullet. It just means that GK may have to use Jokaero as their long range AT, and yes, that is a bit of a nerf. GK, dependent on apes!

Although on the other hand, their deathstar units just got 2 nice buffs. First off, normal power weapons won't hurt GK termies/paladins. This means that you need powerfists/axes to break their armour which means striking last (after getting nailed by I6 halberds). No more being eaten by Banshees.
Also despite FNP getting dropped to 5+, it now works against AP2 stuff. This means FNP saves against things like plasma which used to be the best counter to Paladin blobs.

Just got an email saying my CE just shipped.

xttz wrote:

JB wrote:He must be referring to the hull point issue for GK razorback spam and Psyflemen dreads, but almost every army took the same bullet. It just means that GK may have to use Jokaero as their long range AT, and yes, that is a bit of a nerf. GK, dependent on apes!

Although on the other hand, their deathstar units just got 2 nice buffs. First off, normal power weapons won't hurt GK termies/paladins. This means that you need powerfists/axes to break their armour which means striking last (after getting nailed by I6 halberds). No more being eaten by Banshees.
Also despite FNP getting dropped to 5+, it now works against AP2 stuff. This means FNP saves against things like plasma which used to be the best counter to Paladin blobs.

TBD wrote:^ I don't see how Dark Eldar are "one of the most buffed armies". Wyches look to be almost worthless for example. I can't blame people who invested a lot of money into a Wych army to be slightly angry right now.

Wyches are immensely buffed, are you kidding? Haywire grenades actually kill vehicles now, and hit much more reliably. They can also be thrown. Even small units of Wyches are extremely dangerous to vehicles, up to and including Land Raiders. Scourges with haywire blasters are now one of the best anti-tank units in the game. Lances become much better relative to other weapons thanks to AP 2. Razorwings are one of the best flyers. Overall, Dark Eldar look to be sitting pretty.

TBD wrote:By reading everything in these threads so far Necrons seem to be the most buffed hands down.

Necrons are designed for 6th. The things that didn't make sense earlier are making sense now, but these updates should have been predicted (and indeed, in many cases were predicted) prior to 6th coming out. Everyone knew Destroyers would get better thanks to Preferred Enemy changes. Everyone knew Night Scythes would be buffed. These aren't really unanticipated things.

TBD wrote:And Grey Knights the most nerfed?? That is not the impression I get either.

What's the main strength of Codex: Grey Knights right now? It's probably Fortitude, but Fortitude is extremely nerfed by the changes to vehicles. It's really quite mediocre in 6th edition. I'm honestly not sure I would pay five points for it, and I certainly wouldn't do so across the board. Similarly, Venerable Dreadnoughts have become a garbage option. 60 points for +1 BS? Yeah, no thanks.

In short, many of the unique strengths of Grey Knights are no longer relevant, while others have been heavily downplayed-- for instance, storm bolters are a lot less unique and good when normal bolters can shoot at 24" on the move as well. The new Grey Knight Stormraven is clearly inferior to the Blood Angels Stormraven thanks to changes to the flyer rules. Changes to wound allocation substantially weaken Draigowing. Worst of all, basic Grey Knight NFWs look to be downgraded to AP3.

You have to remember that Grey Knights-- like Necrons-- were designed for 6th. The things they have that seem overpowered now, like Fortitude, make a lot more sense balance-wise in light of 6th edition.

With this double FOC from 2000 pts and up + the ally rules GW has made it somewhat of a unpredictable wild wild west out there at the moment. Not sure yet how to feel about it.

These changes give us tons of flexibility and a new multitude of options, which is a positive way to explain it, but at the same time can be explained as a cheap money-grabbing attempt with a potential no regard to balance by getting people to buy more of certain spam units.

I mean, 6 Annihilation Barges for 540 pts isn't too bad.

TBD wrote:With this double FOC from 2000 pts and up + the ally rules GW has made it somewhat of a unpredictable wild wild west out there at the moment. Not sure yet how to feel about it.

These changes give us tons of flexibility and a new multitude of options, which is a positive way to explain it, but at the same time can be explained as a cheap money-grabbing attempt with a potential no regard to balance by getting people to buy more of certain spam units.

I mean, 6 Annihilation Barges for 540 pts isn't too bad.

Don't go and buy 3 more barges just yet-- people probably won't play 2,000 point games anymore. I think we're going to see a lot of "1,999 point (one point leniency)" tournaments.

Fetterkey wrote:Wyches are immensely buffed, are you kidding?

Lmao, no they are not, as you will soon find out.

TBD wrote:

And Grey Knights the most nerfed?? That is not the impression I get either.

GK force weapons might be AP3 now, which is a nerf.

So is the non-activated force weapon's inability to ignore FNP. Now, they have to wound you first (meaning you get to roll the FNP) before activating the force weapons, which means that the only way to deny FNP is to hit you at a higher initiative (sword, or halberd), wound you, activate the force weapons, and then hit you with a lower initiative (swords or hammers).

Vehicles are easier to kill with glances now. 4 unsaved glances and any tank in the game dies.

The new vehicle damage table and removal of the glance damage table makes fortitude a lot less useful, since you only get to use it when the vehicle is penned, not glanced (when in 5th edition the majority of stun/shaken results come from glances because of the -2 on the chart).

The wound closest to farthest allocation rules make paladins considerably weaker, in that it seems like you will be losing 1 model every 2 wounds the majority of the time.

Storm bolters have not been nerfed, but bolters have been buffed, in that they can move and shoot 24", making storm bolters only slightly better at long range (instead of infinitely better).

AP 3,4 5, 6, and - weapons roll on the new damage table with no modifiers, meaning that S8 autocannons and non-rending psycannon shots will only kill vehicles on a 6, rather than a 5 or 6. This is partly countered by the hull points making vehicles easy to 3-4glance/pen to death, but is still a nerf, as it is more difficult to kill tanks in 1 shot.

A lot more armies seem to have anti-psyker defenses, as well as the ability to ally with eldar (who's HQs can make psychic powers pretty worthless).

These are the only nerfs i can think of off the top of my head, but there could be more. There could also be less, in that i may have made mistakes here, or that not all of these may really be nerfs so much as just changes that are different rather than being good or bad.

Thanks for the excellent roundup, just been saved buying another rulebook. Still regret buying 5th ed I played 2 or 3 games of it them chucked it in a box somewhere.
Guess my Eldar models will probably be getting sold off with the Dark Angels as these rules while bringing back elements of 2nd ed which should have stayed in 3rd, have not brought back armour save modeifiers which are the core reason imo the rules set is unbalanced when joined with "there is no formula for working out a models points cost". (lets face it we have seen that all codices since Oct '98 )

TBD wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Wyches are immensely buffed, are you kidding?

Lmao, no they are not, as you will soon find out.

In 5th edition, the only thing that wyches did that was very useful was haywire vehicles. They are bad at cc (tac squads beat them in CC), and die easily to shooting. Competitively speaking, they are a bad unit, which is why most people bring warriors instead.

In 6th, they will still die easily to shooting, and will still be bad at assault. But they will scare the poop out of any tank they so much as look at. So, maybe people will actually use them now. Seems like a buff to me.

Fetterkey wrote:

TBD wrote:With this double FOC from 2000 pts and up + the ally rules GW has made it somewhat of a unpredictable wild wild west out there at the moment. Not sure yet how to feel about it.

These changes give us tons of flexibility and a new multitude of options, which is a positive way to explain it, but at the same time can be explained as a cheap money-grabbing attempt with a potential no regard to balance by getting people to buy more of certain spam units.

I mean, 6 Annihilation Barges for 540 pts isn't too bad.

Don't go and buy 3 more barges just yet-- people probably won't play 2,000 point games anymore. I think we're going to see a lot of "1,999 point (one point leniency)" tournaments.

\

meh 18 Hydras and 6 Manticores is pretty horrible against orks

Fetterkey wrote:Don't go and buy 3 more barges just yet-- people probably won't play 2,000 point games anymore. I think we're going to see a lot of "1,999 point (one point leniency)" tournaments.

I don't play tournaments/cheezy lists anyway, so these changes likely will not affect me much.

Hmm. Eldrad With Firewarriors? Psychic Defence and good shooting!

Fetterkey wrote:

TBD wrote:^ I don't see how Dark Eldar are "one of the most buffed armies". Wyches look to be almost worthless for example. I can't blame people who invested a lot of money into a Wych army to be slightly angry right now.

Wyches are immensely buffed, are you kidding? Haywire grenades actually kill vehicles now, and hit much more reliably. They can also be thrown. Even small units of Wyches are extremely dangerous to vehicles, up to and including Land Raiders. Scourges with haywire blasters are now one of the best anti-tank units in the game. Lances become much better relative to other weapons thanks to AP 2. Razorwings are one of the best flyers. Overall, Dark Eldar look to be sitting pretty.

Wyches are immensely nerfed. With the nerf to fleet and transports, they lose 4.5" average on their assault threat range. Can't shoot their enemy for fear of not reaching assault after, because models need to be removed from the front. And need to suffer defensive fire at T3 Sv6+, again removing models from the front, making it even more unlikely to reach assault. Agoniser is a power weapon, so Wyches as a whole are now useless versus any TEQ. Multi-assaults make you lose your charge bonus and has you take defensive fire from both units. Haywires did get better and it's nice you can throw one grenade per unit, but every other weapon got better against vehicles as well.

Lances stay the same, as the damage chart got an overhaul and the +1 result is now "standard" compared to 5th. Of course, glances are better now, but that is not unique to Lances.

And how is a Razorwing better than any other flyer in 6th?

Mandor wrote:Wyches are immensely nerfed. With the nerf to fleet and transports, they lose 4.5" average on their assault threat range. Can't shoot their enemy for fear of not reaching assault after, because models need to be removed from the front. And need to suffer defensive fire at T3 Sv6+, again removing models from the front, making it even more unlikely to reach assault. Agoniser is a power weapon, so Wyches as a whole are now useless versus any TEQ. Multi-assaults make you lose your charge bonus and has you take defensive fire from both units. Haywires did get better and it's nice you can throw one grenade per unit, but every other weapon got better against vehicles as well.

What competitively valid units do Wyches currently beat in assault? I guess Imperial Guard guys... who you still beat after the changes? Wyches are only really good as vehicle/parking lot hunters, and they get a lot better at that in 6th edition.

azazel the cat wrote:

6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, MH
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, JotWW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, TW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, SC
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
and...
1x Coteaz
7x Servitors (troops) w/ Plasma Cannons
3x Psyrifleman Dreads
3x Venerable Psyrifleman Dreads

So that's 3k points of pure broken right there.

This is actually a big concern to me. This list is totally illegal. This will become very common. List writers following the rules as they want to read it.

azazel the cat wrote:I'm more looking forward to Imotekh + 4x Chronoteks.

That's a lot of re-rolls on the lightning strikes.

You can't re-roll a re-roll.

Fetterkey wrote:

Mandor wrote:Wyches are immensely nerfed. With the nerf to fleet and transports, they lose 4.5" average on their assault threat range. Can't shoot their enemy for fear of not reaching assault after, because models need to be removed from the front. And need to suffer defensive fire at T3 Sv6+, again removing models from the front, making it even more unlikely to reach assault. Agoniser is a power weapon, so Wyches as a whole are now useless versus any TEQ. Multi-assaults make you lose your charge bonus and has you take defensive fire from both units. Haywires did get better and it's nice you can throw one grenade per unit, but every other weapon got better against vehicles as well.

What competitively valid units do Wyches currently beat in assault? I guess Imperial Guard guys... who you still beat after the changes? Wyches are only really good as vehicle/parking lot hunters, and they get a lot better at that in 6th edition.

Depends whether they get done by Stand And Shoot.