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Sigvatr wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:I'm more looking forward to Imotekh + 4x Chronoteks.

That's a lot of re-rolls on the lightning strikes.

You can't re-roll a re-roll.

But you can reroll the lightning strike on different targets to actually get (more) hits.

night fight

over 36" is untargetable

over 24" is +2 to cover saves

Over 12" is stealth (+1 to cover).

This just keeps getting better and better. How can it even be possible? I didn't think it could. CCBs with 2+ cover saves when moving flat out and doing sweeping attacks, Doom Scythes being hit with 6's and if hit evading with 3+ cover saves, etc.

Seems like all Codices written by Mat Ward got buffed

Necrons are by far the biggest winner of this edition. It's the latest codex and written by Mat Ward with the new rulebook in hand so it makes sense. Second big winner might be Blood Angels, while IG is also a winner but mostly because they have everything in their codex and most of it is underpriced so if anything gets buffed they can spam that one type ad infinatum. I'd go and say Space Wolves are losers because they have no access to flyers or skyfire, Razorspam was gutted and beasts (TWC) are now slower than jump infantry. Grey Knights didn't gain anything either and probably lost some ground both because wound allocation was fixed and because their mech spam can be tabled with flyers. Dark Eldar might benefit from the metagame shift (Chimera spam is dead), footslogga horde Orks might actually be decent, while Tyranids, Tau and Craftworld Eldar who already were the punching bags will pretty much stay the same.

Aren't they releasing the Craftworld Eldar flyer, Harpy and Void Raven later this year?

If the rumours are true and AP- is no -1 to the chart, then Tesla's getting a massive boost against Vehicles and in Overwatch, think about all those extra hits!

Byte wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, MH
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, JotWW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, TW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, SC
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
and...
1x Coteaz
7x Servitors (troops) w/ Plasma Cannons
3x Psyrifleman Dreads
3x Venerable Psyrifleman Dreads

So that's 3k points of pure broken right there.

This is actually a big concern to me. This list is totally illegal. This will become very common. List writers following the rules as they want to read it.

How exactly is it illegal and how are list writers "following the rules as they want to read them" when that FOC clearly allows it?

(if that actually is the FOC as in the book of course)

Therion wrote:

night fight

over 36" is untargetable

over 24" is +2 to cover saves

Over 12" is stealth (+1 to cover).

This just keeps getting better and better. How can it even be possible? I didn't think it could. CCBs with 2+ cover saves when moving flat out and doing sweeping attacks, Doom Scythes being hit with 6's and if hit evading with 3+ cover saves, etc.

Why 2+ and sweeping attacks? Once you get in range for sweeping attacks, you will most likely be in 12'' to the enemy and thus get no advantage from night fight anymore. About Doom Scythes...hmm...not sold on it yet.

It is illegal because it has too many elite and heavy choices as allies. The Ally FOC only allows one of each after you take the compulsory HQ and one Troop choice.

Fetterkey wrote:

TBD wrote:^ I don't see how Dark Eldar are "one of the most buffed armies". Wyches look to be almost worthless for example. I can't blame people who invested a lot of money into a Wych army to be slightly angry right now.

Wyches are immensely buffed, are you kidding? Haywire grenades actually kill vehicles now, and hit much more reliably. They can also be thrown. Even small units of Wyches are extremely dangerous to vehicles, up to and including Land Raiders. Scourges with haywire blasters are now one of the best anti-tank units in the game. Lances become much better relative to other weapons thanks to AP 2. Razorwings are one of the best flyers. Overall, Dark Eldar look to be sitting pretty.

Yeah great, so Wyches can kill tanks now, big freaking deal, what they can't do is the thing they were designed to, which is be durable tarpit units, on account of, whenever you charge them at anything you have to expose them to a round of shooitng, shooting against which they don't have the durability they have in melee, meanwhile they have lost speed in comparison to other units since they can no longer run then assault, and pending the AP value on an Agonizer, potentially will hit softer than a wet noodle against many of the enemies they were meant to slowly be dragging down.

Most of this is a symptom not of Dark Eldar problems but of the wider problem which is why on earth did they see fit to hit melee with a sledgehammer, and render the idea of a close combat specialist all but pointless.

Fragile melee units that relied on a large threat range thanks to their fast vehicles to get them into melee untouched suffer particularly from the new rules.

Dark Eldar aren't big losers in the new rules, but their more fragile melee units most certainly are, in fact, if anything the new edition reinforces the trueborn/warrior spamming mobile shooty Dark Eldar army list which had already largely come to dominate the meta game.

They could at least have made a minimum of 4 troops choices at 2000+ pts a requirement, but that FOC still appears to only require 2.

TBD wrote:How exactly is it illegal and how are list writers "following the rules as they want to read them" when that FOC clearly allows it?

(if that actually is the FOC as in the book of course)

Ally FoC is confirmed to be 1-1 HQ, 0-1 Elites, 1-2 Troops, 0-1 FA, 0-1 HS.

And I know the rumours say that you can get a "free" FoC when your game is over 2k points. But call me naive, I still think you need to fill out 2k points in your first FoC before you can start filling a second. It makes much more sense.

TBD wrote:

Byte wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, MH
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, JotWW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, TW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, SC
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
and...
1x Coteaz
7x Servitors (troops) w/ Plasma Cannons
3x Psyrifleman Dreads
3x Venerable Psyrifleman Dreads

So that's 3k points of pure broken right there.

This is actually a big concern to me. This list is totally illegal. This will become very common. List writers following the rules as they want to read it.

How exactly is it illegal and how are list writers "following the rules as they want to read them" when that FOC clearly allows it?

(if that actually is the FOC as in the book of course)

I don't think you can always blame the list writers totally, GW have made a fairly complex new system and it's going to take a while before it completely settles in for everyone. Earlier i saw the 1995 Tau list was wrong as he used the 2000 chart despite it being 1995 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

TBD wrote:^ I don't see how Dark Eldar are "one of the most buffed armies". Wyches look to be almost worthless for example. I can't blame people who invested a lot of money into a Wych army to be slightly angry right now.

Wyches are immensely buffed, are you kidding? Haywire grenades actually kill vehicles now, and hit much more reliably. They can also be thrown. Even small units of Wyches are extremely dangerous to vehicles, up to and including Land Raiders. Scourges with haywire blasters are now one of the best anti-tank units in the game. Lances become much better relative to other weapons thanks to AP 2. Razorwings are one of the best flyers. Overall, Dark Eldar look to be sitting pretty.

Yeah great, so Wyches can kill tanks now, big freaking deal, what they can't do is the thing they were designed to, which is be durable tarpit units.

IE, wyches are now designed to work against the fluff.

JB wrote:It is illegal because it has too many elite and heavy choices as allies. The Ally FOC only allows one of each after you take the compulsory HQ and one Troop choice.

Yes, on second glance he indeed has some Dreads too many.

Therion wrote:

night fight

over 36" is untargetable

over 24" is +2 to cover saves

Over 12" is stealth (+1 to cover).

This just keeps getting better and better. How can it even be possible? I didn't think it could. CCBs with 2+ cover saves when moving flat out and doing sweeping attacks, Doom Scythes being hit with 6's and if hit evading with 3+ cover saves, etc.

Seems like all Codices written by Mat Ward got buffed

Necrons are by far the biggest winner of this edition. It's the latest codex and written by Mat Ward with the new rulebook in hand so it makes sense. Second big winner might be Blood Angels, while IG is also a winner but mostly because they have everything in their codex and most of it is underpriced so if anything gets buffed they can spam that one type ad infinatum. I'd go and say Space Wolves are losers because they have no access to flyers or skyfire, Razorspam was gutted and beasts (TWC) are now slower than jump infantry. Grey Knights didn't gain anything either and probably lost some ground both because wound allocation was fixed and because their mech spam can be tabled with flyers.

We don't know what weapons have skyfire yet (unless I missed something) so space wolves have not lost out just yet

TBD wrote:They could at least have made a minimum of 4 troops choices at 2000+ pts a requirement, but that FOC still appears to only require 2.

Only because it's more fun to make stuff up and then complain about it, than to actually read the rules as written.

Therion wrote:

night fight

over 36" is untargetable

over 24" is +2 to cover saves

Over 12" is stealth (+1 to cover).

This just keeps getting better and better. How can it even be possible? I didn't think it could. CCBs with 2+ cover saves when moving flat out and doing sweeping attacks, Doom Scythes being hit with 6's and if hit evading with 3+ cover saves, etc.

Seems like all Codices written by Mat Ward got buffed

Necrons are by far the biggest winner of this edition. It's the latest codex and written by Mat Ward with the new rulebook in hand so it makes sense. Second big winner might be Blood Angels, while IG is also a winner but mostly because they have everything in their codex and most of it is underpriced so if anything gets buffed they can spam that one type ad infinatum. I'd go and say Space Wolves are losers because they have no access to flyers or skyfire, Razorspam was gutted and beasts (TWC) are now slower than jump infantry. Grey Knights didn't gain anything either and probably lost some ground both because wound allocation was fixed and because their mech spam can be tabled with flyers.

Well actually lose of gakky wound allocation is a big nerf to wolf because of the thunderwolfs getting pwned again.

Mandor wrote:And I know the rumours say that you can get a "free" FoC when your game is over 2k points. But call me naive, I still think you need to fill out 2k points in your first FoC before you can start filling a second. It makes much more sense.

Let's hope so.

Right now it looks like a wild west of nonsense

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I don't think you can always blame the list writers totally, GW have made a fairly complex new system and it's going to take a while before it completely settles in for everyone. Earlier i saw the 1995 Tau list was wrong as he used the 2000 chart despite it being 1995 points.

It'll most likely be that games with a limit of 2000pts or more will double the force org, rather than the size of the armies themselves, so that Tau army might not be incorrect at 1995pts.

Of course, it'll all come down to the specific wording. However, it's incorrect to assume that the "Tau list was wrong" because of wording we don't know.

Cheexsta wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I don't think you can always blame the list writers totally, GW have made a fairly complex new system and it's going to take a while before it completely settles in for everyone. Earlier i saw the 1995 Tau list was wrong as he used the 2000 chart despite it being 1995 points.

It'll most likely be that games with a limit of 2000pts or more will double the force org, rather than the size of the armies themselves, so that Tau army might not be incorrect at 1995pts.

Of course, it'll all come down to the specific wording. However, it's incorrect to assume that the "Tau list was wrong" because of wording we don't know.

It's the same with the LF list, we don't know for sure how many allies we can take yet, I was just following the RAW implications of that example shown in the picture which was the list had to be 2000+ points to get a second FoC, and correct me if i'm wrong but isn't 1995 points less than 2000?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:IE, wyches are now designed to work against the fluff.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here?

Drunkspleen wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:IE, wyches are now designed to work against the fluff.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here?[/quote

Fluff tells about how they are born infantry killers, and now they suck at it, and they're decent at killing vehicles, so much for that swift armour to help you move faster with more agility when fighting the enemy in hand to hand...

Fafnir wrote:

Puscifer wrote:One thing I want to know, aside from allies, is the new rage USR.

Is it just +2A or does it include the 5th ed rules?

My opinion is, if it is just +2A, BADC Armies are going to become very very deadly and much more reliable.

It is only +2A, no other restrictions.

Cheers Dude. It's made my selection a little easier for the next army. I've always wanted a BADC army. Narrowed them down to Dark Angels, BADC and Chaos.

Drunkspleen wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:IE, wyches are now designed to work against the fluff.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here?

I'm guessing that he means that Wyches in the fluff are gladiators, lightning fast and able to play with their opponents without getting much damage in return. In fifth, this is (mostly) true, with their 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. In sixth, Wyches are just cheap vehicle hunters that get shot up if they plan on assaulting anything else.

Fluff tells about how they are born infantry killers, and now they suck at it, and they're decent at killing vehicles, so much for that swift armour to help you move faster with more agility when fighting the enemy in hand to hand...

Right, thought for a second you were saying something almost entirely opposite, glad I checked before unleashing on you

In fifth, this is (mostly) true, with their 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. In sixth, Wyches are just cheap vehicle hunters that get shot up

Considering I've been following the rumours and metagaming scenarios and matchups in my head eight hours per day for the last week, pray tell me what changed so dramatically to make Wyches from unstoppable gladiators to cheap vehicle hunters ready to be shot to pieces? FNP 5+ and overwatch? FNP is as minor a nerf as it gets considering the buff it also received. It's more of an adjustment to bring it exactly in line with Reanimation Protocols. Overwatch then? What kind of squads have you been assaulting? Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn. That's nothing. Add in the fact that a standard MSU Marine squad of five guys with rapid fire weapons kills something like 0.5 Wyches when overwatching, and you're being ridiculous.

Overwatch seems to be pretty useless then.

Therion wrote:

In fifth, this is (mostly) true, with their 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. In sixth, Wyches are just cheap vehicle hunters that get shot up

Considering I've been following the rumours and metagaming scenarios and matchups in my head eight hours per day for the last week, pray tell me what changed so dramatically to make Wyches from unstoppable gladiators to cheap vehicle hunters ready to be shot to pieces? FNP 5+ and overwatch? FNP is as minor a nerf as it gets considering the buff it also received. It's more of an adjustment to bring it exactly in line with Reanimation Protocols. Overwatch then? What kind of squads have you been assaulting? Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn. That's nothing. Add in the fact that a standard MSU Marine squad of five guys with rapid fire weapons kills something like 0.5 Wyches when overwatching, and you're being ridiculous.

Wait...what?

I thought it was each squad can only overwatch once per turn, ie. if you are assaulted by more than 1 unit, you can only shoot one

Please correct me if I am wrong

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn. That's nothing.

No it's once per unit per turn, the AMA on Reddit confirms this.

[–]Rixitotal[S] 7 points 14 hours ago
once per unit per turn. like stand and shoot from fantasy.
permalinkparent

Add in the fact that a standard MSU Marine squad of five guys with rapid fire weapons kills something like 0.5 Wyches when overwatching

How are you coming up with this, 10 bolter shots is 1.6 hits, for 1.1 wounds, no save, 0.74 after FNP and then there's the danger of losing far more guys to a lucky round of rolling, and the fact that you aren't necessarily assaulting miniscule squads, it's a serious impact on them.

My understanding of Overwatch was a bit different.

A defending unit uses it when charged. Only one use per assault phase.

If an attacking unit engages multiple defenders in assault, each of the defending units gets its own Overwatch fire.

You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Burna Boys are better shot down anyway.

wuestenfux wrote:Overwatch seems to be pretty useless then.

The following discussion will start now:

"My overwatch army is useless!"
"I thought I could overwatch with normal BS with every unit every time they're assaulted so my entire army basically got an extra shooting phase against my friend's unarmoured naked lady assault troops!"
"Mat Ward ruined my plan! I hate him!"
"GW hates my army and wants to see it destroyed."

No it's once per unit per turn, the AMA on Reddit confirms this.

Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.