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JB wrote:My understanding of Overwatch was a bit different.

A defending unit uses it when charged. Only one use per assault phase.

If an attacking unit engages multiple defenders in assault, each of the defending units gets its own Overwatch fire.

Yeah thats right

So if one unit charges into two, both can overwatch

If two units charge one, the one can only overwatch one of the two attacking units

Hope that makes sense

wuestenfux wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Burna Boys are better shot down anyway.

Quite. In most games, Overwatch-- like Snap Fire-- will mean nothing but perhaps a few lucky hits over the course of a game, and the few units that are dangerous when overwatching can be dealt with by means other than assault.

Therion wrote:

In fifth, this is (mostly) true, with their 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. In sixth, Wyches are just cheap vehicle hunters that get shot up

Considering I've been following the rumours and metagaming scenarios and matchups in my head eight hours per day for the last week, pray tell me what changed so dramatically to make Wyches from unstoppable gladiators to cheap vehicle hunters ready to be shot to pieces? FNP 5+ and overwatch? FNP is as minor a nerf as it gets considering the buff it also received. It's more of an adjustment to bring it exactly in line with Reanimation Protocols. Overwatch then? What kind of squads have you been assaulting? Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn. That's nothing. Add in the fact that a standard MSU Marine squad of five guys with rapid fire weapons kills something like 0.5 Wyches when overwatching, and you're being ridiculous.

I think that math is wrong providing out of 20 shots you should get a minimum of 3 hits and 2 wounds which means 1-2 dead as i believe the 4+ is against CC attacks, and in close combat the FnP gets worse against standard attacks too, another thing to look at is Wyches won't be as good at holding units up, and you can easily get more either if you're lucky and if your shooting at standard BS. Terminators an obvious thing here, previously wyches did really well killing a few off with an agoniser, but I believe it's wounds on a 4+ power weapon so it'll be AP3 now? correct me if i'm wrong.

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn.

It's refreshing to see you misunderstand something in a way that makes you less appalled with the new edition for once!

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn.

It's refreshing to see you misunderstand something in a way that makes you less appalled with the new edition for once!

It's unsurprising to see you still have nothing to add to this discussion. I operate based on the rumours that are confirmed to be true.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

May I ask why it hurts fragile melee units more? Because more of them die to overwatch than Marines? Isn't that fragility supposed to be reflected in the points cost, meaning you get more of them, unless they're the glass cannon type that really hits hard once they get their way? There's nothing wrong in this overwatch rule at all in my opinion. A BS1 bolter round kills 0.028 Assault Marines for a total points cost of 0.56. A BS1 bolter round kills 0.074 Wyches for a total points cost of 0.74. Is this a dramatic difference? The difference doesn't exist because of the the relative armour saves or anything but because the differences in points cost. Wyches are (as you can see only slightly) more fragile than Assault Marines and if you don't feel that's justified by their close combat abilities then that's a problem the guy who wrote the codex should have addressed. We can't start making rules that make shooting less effective just because shooting kills more fragile guys than it does tough underpriced guys.

I see others have already addressed the other aspects in overwatch. The scale and impact has been blown out of proportion. If anything you should talk about snap fire and how it encourages movement and does nothing to help weapons that could already be fired on the move or simply all the time.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

Bollocks. Meleé units do just fine, and they will do in the new edition. A shooty unit has to shoot at a melee unit for several turns before it dies, but a melee unit charging a shooty unit will kill it straight off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn.

It's refreshing to see you misunderstand something in a way that makes you less appalled with the new edition for once!

It's unsurprising to see you still have nothing to add to this discussion or in fact any discussions. I operate based on the rumours that are confirmed to be true.

Each UNIT can overwatch fire once per turn, not each unit per army.

Therion wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn.

It's refreshing to see you misunderstand something in a way that makes you less appalled with the new edition for once!

It's unsurprising to see you still have nothing to add to this discussion or in fact any discussions. I operate based on the rumours that are confirmed to be true.

But a player can overwatch as many times as he wants in his turn, only that each unit can only overwatch once, example

I have two units being charged, both can use overwatch to shoot the enemy and try to stop them getting into charge range

Edit: ninjad

There seems to be some missunderstanding...you don't choose to stand and shoot (overwatch, although it's not called that) during your own turn, it's automatic.

Well, overwatch is based on BS 1 and so the opposite of killy.

TBD wrote:

JB wrote:It is illegal because it has too many elite and heavy choices as allies. The Ally FOC only allows one of each after you take the compulsory HQ and one Troop choice.

Yes, on second glance he indeed has some Dreads too many.

Caught you reading want you wanted to see.

0-1 is none or one for all you renegade list builders.

I'm hoping agoniser will be FAQ'd to have AP2, what else would they expect us to do? Fly to the Imperium and buy a power axe? Would probably snap our frail arms with the weight anyway...

Lame jokes aside, I think part of 5th ed Wyches' advantage is that we can always assault on full strength, so having a few being knocked down before the assault happens would probably weakened the wyches quite considerably? Considering we aren't exactly hitting on good strength, but relying on sheer number of attacks + agoniser hekatrix to deal wounds. Against T4 or above, I meant. Don't have my BRB with me right now, but on average, the wyches unit would probably have a harder time winning combat, even against shooty space marines.

Couldn't all space marines shooty units get a flamer anyway?

I don't think the FNP changes is an intended nerf for wyches however, it's more like we got hit by a stray bullet, I believe they just want to make FNP marines even harder to kill in melee, or in a less "GW hates xeno's" way, units with good armour save will be harder to kill in combat.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

6th edition is a buff to melee over shooting. Melee units are much better (both in terms of accuracy and in terms of damage) against vehicles, have longer charge distances, and lots of restrictions have been put back on shooting (no killing models out of line of sight, no killing models out of range) to boot. Overwatch is mild "punishment" when it comes with the rewards given to melee units by the rest of the edition.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I don't think you can always blame the list writers totally, GW have made a fairly complex new system and it's going to take a while before it completely settles in for everyone. Earlier i saw the 1995 Tau list was wrong as he used the 2000 chart despite it being 1995 points.

It'll most likely be that games with a limit of 2000pts or more will double the force org, rather than the size of the armies themselves, so that Tau army might not be incorrect at 1995pts.

Of course, it'll all come down to the specific wording. However, it's incorrect to assume that the "Tau list was wrong" because of wording we don't know.

It's the same with the LF list, we don't know for sure how many allies we can take yet, I was just following the RAW implications of that example shown in the picture which was the list had to be 2000+ points to get a second FoC, and correct me if i'm wrong but isn't 1995 points less than 2000?

As I said, it's more likely that the extra FOC slots will be available to armies when the agreed points limit is 2000pts or more, rather than the armies themselves. I mean, you can take a 1995pt army to a 2000pt tournament, and your battles will still be called "2000pt games" because the limit is what typically determines the size of the game. Plus, I strongly doubt that an army would suddenly become illegal if it became 1pt cheaper.

It's like in older editions when special characters often required armies over a particular size (usually 1500 or 2000pts). It was ruled (or, at least, played) back then that this referred to the size limit of the game, not the total points cost of your army.

But, as I also said, it's not possible to say that something is definitely right or definitely wrong when we simply don't know the actual wording yet.

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

16 rapid fire shots at BS1, 16/6 hits, 32/18 wounds, 64/54 casualties.
1 flamer, 2 hits, 4/3 wounds, 8/9 casualties.
1 missile launcher at BS1, 1/6 hits, 5/36 wounds, 5/36 casualties.

Total =~ 2.21 dead Wyches.

So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/4 of my unit. How is that not a devastating blow? What purpose do my Wyches have now?

EDIT: Woops, I'm off on the missile launcher. Fixed now.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

Personally I think it's a fine rule.
All the fear and uncertainty was rather fixed with 'BS1' to be fair.

On a thought - I realise this probably isn't the case, but a way to help 'nids and lessen the 'blow' of no allies, could be to make Tyranids the only race that can ally to itself.

Would fit with the endless horde thing, and offset the potential extra 7 foc slots of other armies.

Mandor wrote:So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/3 of my unit. How is that not a devastating blow? What purpose do my Wyches have now?

We could cross our fingers and hope that GW rules in an FAQ that Wyches get their dodge save against overwatch?

Mandor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

16 rapid fire shots at BS1, 16/6 hits, 32/18 wounds, 64/54 casualties.
1 flamer, 2 hits, 4/3 wounds, 8/9 casualties.
1 missile launcher at BS1, 1/6 hits, 5/36 wounds, 5/36 casualties.

Total =~ 2.21 dead Wyches.

So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/4 of my unit. How is that not a devastating blow? What purpose do my Wyches have now?

EDIT: Woops, I'm off on the missile launcher. Fixed now.

If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Cheexsta wrote:
We could cross our fingers and hope that GW rules in an FAQ that Wyches get their dodge save against overwatch?

From an RP standpoint, that would be silly. Bullets travel faster at closer ranges and you have a smaller time window in which to avoid what was an already very small time window. At point blank the impact from a bullet is almost instantaneous, whereas at maximum range you may have several seconds before impact.

Then again, the idea of "hull points" is ridiculous from an RP standpoint, and it's in the game, so I don't know.

Maybe they could take an angle that actually balances units against each other and internally balances Codexes so that you don't have to worry about things like this.

Fetterkey wrote:

If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

You must be kidding. It's an assault unit. To lose that many models -before- an assault in an assault unit is devastating, especially for a unit that relies on high initiative like Eldar. It could very easily shift momentum and allow another similarly costed unit to tip the balance.

Fetterkey wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

6th edition is a buff to melee over shooting. Melee units are much better (both in terms of accuracy and in terms of damage) against vehicles, have longer charge distances, and lots of restrictions have been put back on shooting (no killing models out of line of sight, no killing models out of range) to boot. Overwatch is mild "punishment" when it comes with the rewards given to melee units by the rest of the edition.

Longer charge distances, good one.

Nobody is going to be declaring charges over 6, maybe 7 inches, at 7 inches you have a 58% chance of succeeding with your 2d6 roll to get into combat, that means, 42% of the time, you a) don't get to assault the enemy and b) give the enemy a free round of shooting at your melee unit. Assault ranges haven't gotten significantly longer, even if you can roll up a 12 every once in a while.

What other "rewards" have melee units gotten? I'd honestly love for you to name a few, I really hope there's something I'm missing, as it stands, they are at a significant disadvantage compared to last edition in my mind.

Ovion wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

Personally I think it's a fine rule.
All the fear and uncertainty was rather fixed with 'BS1' to be fair.

The rule is fine... to MEQ or TEQ assault units. It's just very powerful against Xenos assault armies. Especially Eldar and Dark Eldar, who have specialist units that excel in assault, but can't take getting shot up.

That's just your 10 Tac Marines, it could get worse depending on the unit. considering if you charged a unit of Ward Knights with Dual Psycannon you'd not get FnP against and that's a lot of shots from them alone.

Also i seem to be thinking we're forgetting the points, would the Raider last THAT long for us not to whittle them down in shooting anyway?

Byte wrote:

TBD wrote:

JB wrote:It is illegal because it has too many elite and heavy choices as allies. The Ally FOC only allows one of each after you take the compulsory HQ and one Troop choice.

Yes, on second glance he indeed has some Dreads too many.

Caught you reading want you wanted to see.

Not at all. I didn't pay attention to his last couple of 3x's though.

It is quite obvious that allies only allow 1 elite, FA & HS, so I don't know why he listed that.

Not as if 6x Long Fangs + 4x Rune Priest, etc, wouldn't be a basis for concern on their own

Fetterkey wrote:If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow", because I can hardly avoid it tactically and I happens to all of my assault units, not just the one. And of course I'll be rethinking my army list. But apparently you aren't, if you aren't taking a flamer in a Tactical Squad in 6th.

And when all is said and done, it could be 2nd Ed Overwatch:

"My army is on overwatch. Your turn."
"So is mine. Your turn."
"Still on overwatch. Your turn."
"Ditto. Your turn."
"Staying on overwatch. Your turn."
"Same again. Your turn."


Uhh... Overwatch in 2nd Ed was dreadful. This is a breath of fresh air in comparison.

Fetterkey wrote:

Mandor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

16 rapid fire shots at BS1, 16/6 hits, 32/18 wounds, 64/54 casualties.
1 flamer, 2 hits, 4/3 wounds, 8/9 casualties.
1 missile launcher at BS1, 1/6 hits, 5/36 wounds, 5/36 casualties.

Total =~ 2.21 dead Wyches.

So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/4 of my unit. How is that not a devastating blow? What purpose do my Wyches have now?

EDIT: Woops, I'm off on the missile launcher. Fixed now.

If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Well, I wouldn't care about losing 2 Wyches from a 10 men/girls squads. Winning also depends on when, where, and what to charge.

Mandor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow", because I can hardly avoid it tactically and I happens to all of my assault units, not just the one. And of course I'll be rethinking my army list. But apparently you aren't, if you aren't taking a flamer in a Tactical Squad in 6th.

How many Tacticals do you think they are going to kill anyway, do you really think 7 Wyches are going to do enough damage? Note that the SMs may also have a power fist to deny FnP as well as the wyches having an agoniser. If the fearless rule means no casualties now it's not going to do any harm for SMs if they lose combat because even if they run away they suffer the same ruling as Fearless. On average with 30 attacks you should hit 15 and wound with only 5, killing 2 or 3 marines first round, so you've equalled their overwatch tally, they will then kill some back, and you'll get less attacks each turn, and the marines may even take the day.

And you won't know if No-one will take flamers in 6th,

TedNugent wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:
We could cross our fingers and hope that GW rules in an FAQ that Wyches get their dodge save against overwatch?

From an RP standpoint, that would be silly. Bullets travel faster at closer ranges and you have a smaller time window in which to avoid what was an already very small time window. At point blank the impact from a bullet is almost instantaneous, whereas at maximum range you may have several seconds before impact.

I know...just trying to instil a little hope

Cheexsta wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:
We could cross our fingers and hope that GW rules in an FAQ that Wyches get their dodge save against overwatch?

From an RP standpoint, that would be silly. Bullets travel faster at closer ranges and you have a smaller time window in which to avoid what was an already very small time window. At point blank the impact from a bullet is almost instantaneous, whereas at maximum range you may have several seconds before impact.

I know...just trying to instil a little hope

Tell that to Mr Ward's 5+ Dodge Death Cult Assassins which get it everywhere, including against stuff like flamers!

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Mandor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow", because I can hardly avoid it tactically and I happens to all of my assault units, not just the one. And of course I'll be rethinking my army list. But apparently you aren't, if you aren't taking a flamer in a Tactical Squad in 6th.

How many Tacticals do you think they are going to kill anyway, do you really think 7 Wyches are going to do enough damage? Note that the SMs may also have a power fist to deny FnP as well as the wyches having an agoniser. If the fearless rule means no casualties now it's not going to do any harm for SMs if they lose combat because even if they run away they suffer the same ruling as Fearless. On average with 30 attacks you should hit 15 and wound with only 5, killing 2 or 3 marines first round, so you've equalled their overwatch tally, they will then kill some back, and you'll get less attacks each turn, and the marines may even take the day.

And you won't know if No-one will take flamers in 6th,

Exactly, you are totally right. So essentially you are saying Wyches are useless now. I agree.