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I know the falcon isn't the best but I like them. Stick a star cannon and shuriken cannon on it with a CTM and trundle forward carrying something like a squad of fire dragons or go with two shuriken cannons and six avengers in a Biel tan list. They put out a decent amount of firepower and are flexible in what they can shoot.
I just prefer the look visually of tanks and troops in a skirmish game like 40k, it's more of a preference even if it's not as strong in game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd rank them as decent but not the optimum

I'm obviously assuming that I'm not the first to notice this, but as my other army is Chaos it's something that I noticed today regarding the Avatar.

Now I've already heard it's overpriced, and I just assumed it was a general complaint which underperforming units, hardly a unique situation, and the Avatar has often been overpriced in the past too (for whatever reason).

Something I noticed today though what it's statline. It's REMARKABLY similar to a Nurgle Daemon Prince.

Same WS
Same BS
Same Toughness
Same Wounds
Same Armour Save
Same Invulnerable Save
Same Feel no Pain Save
Strength of attacks is similar, a CSM prince is stronger while a normal Nurgle prince is about the same.

The Prince has more attacks (depending on weapon loadout, it's usually either about the same or several attacks extra).

The Prince can move at 12" vs the Avatar's 7".

Their Auras are different but comparable I think, I'm taking them as even for the sake of argument.

Oh, and Princes are Psykers, and so can cast 1 power or smite a turn.

So the Prince is the same, but with 5" more movement, and some pretty potent psychic power options. And is 70 points cheaper.

I mean... what?

Edit:
To add, one advantage the Avatar has is a single 12" Assault Lascannon shot, compared to the Assault 2 bolter of a Prince. So the Avatar wins on shooting. But then the Prince gets psychic buffs + smite which probably works out about the same or better on pure damage, and doesn't include the force multiplier that the psychic buffs can be.

This seems a flawed and illogical comparison on a ton of levels. They're different units. Yes demon princes are good, and yes the Avatar could use a points drop, there isn't much else to say. The strength of the Avatar is the 12 inch bubble of fearless. Fearless imo is one of the strongest auras in the game. That and he is an untargetable beatstick in an army that only has a few of those.

The avatar is overcoated for sure, which is a shame, but he's a pretty good unit overall.
Having melta in both shooting and melee is nice, he can put out a lot of damage.
His aura is potentially very nice because it's so big, banshees and spears can move forward and as long as they stay less than 12" they can re-roll charges to help get in a first round charge with a reasonable chance of success. Give the avatar the +2" movement warlord trait and advance him up, potentially fire and fading him up even further.
At 200 pts he's a great unit at 250 he's probably too expensive for competitive but perfectly useable.

Colgado wrote:
This seems a flawed and illogical comparison on a ton of levels. They're different units. Yes demon princes are good, and yes the Avatar could use a points drop, there isn't much else to say. The strength of the Avatar is the 12 inch bubble of fearless. Fearless imo is one of the strongest auras in the game. That and he is an untargetable beatstick in an army that only has a few of those.

Obviously the comparison isn't apples to apples, as we all know points costs are rarely balanced between different armies for similar units because you have to compare things like army synergy and buffs etc etc. An identical you it in one army might be a powerhouse due to available psychic powers or transportation or something.

So flawed, sure, I say as much that it's not a perfect comparison. But illogical?

The units are almost identical, apart from the aura and the psychic ability. Seems like a totally logical thing to compare. If the Avatar was slightly more expensive (say 200 points) I'd say they compared well to each other. But at 250 points... I mean if they raised princes to 250 points each noone would play them, and they're currently the best unit in the chaos army.

But then that's the effect points has. I do hope for a cut for the Avatar, I do like him even if he wouldn't fit well into my fast eldar list.

kingheff wrote:

At 200 pts he's a great unit at 250 he's probably too expensive for competitive but perfectly useable.

Too expensive yes. Too expensive for competitive? But he just won a 73 person tournament.

OrdoSean wrote:

kingheff wrote:

At 200 pts he's a great unit at 250 he's probably too expensive for competitive but perfectly useable.

Too expensive yes. Too expensive for competitive? But he just won a 73 person tournament.

Really? I'm guessing it was a list that heavily used his fearless aura?

So, i dont specialise in CWE, i mostly play DE/Quins, tho i do have a CWE army, i just dont play full armies of it much at all. But i feel the Avatar is better than what players make it out to be. I can understand if you are scared for it to be shot turn 1, tho if you are able to build a list to use him and you can keep him alive a couple turns i truly feel he is a good unit.

This buffs are very good, especially for Banshee's, guardians, etc.. Morla is good, but re-roll charges and with stratagems can be game changing. He is also good at threatening short range (the range and melee profiles). SUre he only has 5 attacks, but vs certain thinks thats enough.

I'd say he is equal to a Swarmlord, tho you might need to build your army around the Avatar more so that the Swarm Lord, and you might need a stratagem more than Nids. I still feel it is worth it.

The only bad part about him is his slow movement, in an army with such massive movements you can really tell how slow he is.

OrdoSean: which event do you refer to? Maybe have the list?
I think the Avatar is costed under the assumption that a large number of units profits from his auras. Fearless imo is rarely relevant as most players will focus any singular unit until it's dead anyways and the charge reroll doesn't come into play a lot as the only units that are considered competitive, that do charge are shining spears.
I still dream of a foot aspect warrior list that is playable without the feeling of handicapping myself...

OrdoSean wrote:

kingheff wrote:

At 200 pts he's a great unit at 250 he's probably too expensive for competitive but perfectly useable.

Too expensive yes. Too expensive for competitive? But he just won a 73 person tournament.

Happy to be proven wrong, any idea of the army list?

kingheff wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:

kingheff wrote:

At 200 pts he's a great unit at 250 he's probably too expensive for competitive but perfectly useable.

Too expensive yes. Too expensive for competitive? But he just won a 73 person tournament.

Happy to be proven wrong, any idea of the army list?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/765006.page

Some charged discussion about how it’s terrible and shouldn’t have been able to win.

I dont think that list is terrible at all, Guardians are great, and when taking so many the Avatar seems to make since (as i stated above he can work, but works better with units he buffs).

If you have dedicated Threats, the Wyches wont be shot at, thats kinda the key to wyches, dont get them shot at. They can really surprise someone with the damage, especially with Nets, drugs, drug strats, other strats, and Cursed blade for +1S. You can heavily buff 1 unit of Wyches, they are someone fast as well, ic an see giving 1 5man +2 movement for a 9" + D6 movement base on a cheap troop unit.

Guardians can DS, have Invuls, FnP, good anti-infantry shooting, if they dont DS can Fire and Fade afterwords, can even shoot after falling back if are tied up, finally being Ulthway you can give them +1 to hit.

Eldard is just good, i'm honestly surprised more dont take him.


A few questions:

Are the points a typo tho? I thought Rangers were 60pts?
And i think i know why you piked Dreaming shadow (so they can shoot twice maybe) and b.c its not the popular pick, but IDK if i would ever give up Soaring Spite, Advancing with full BS is so good.

Here's Sean Nayden's list in full:


Harlequin Outrider – Masque of Dreaming Shadow – 1 CP – 682 pts

Troupe Master – Power Sword, Fusion Pistol – 83 pts Warlord (A Foot in the Future)

Solitaire – 98 pts (free relic: Cegorach’s Rose)

6 Skyweaver Jetbikes – 6 Haywire Cannons, 1 Zephyrglaive – 276 pts

2 Skyweaver Jetbikes – 2 Haywire Cannons – 90 pts

3 Skyweaver Jetbikes – 3 Haywire Cannons – 135 pts
Dark Eldar Battalion – Cult of the Cursed Blade – 5 CP – 334 pts

Succubus – Splinter Pistol – 50 pts

Succubus – Splinter Pistol – 50 pts

18 Wyches – 2 Shard Nets – 154 pts

5 Wyches – 40 pts

5 Wyches – 40 pts
Eldar Battalion – Ulthwe Craftworld – 5 CP – 980 pts

Eldrad – 150 pts

Avatar of Khaine – 250 pts

Maugen Ra – 140 pts

20 Guardians – 2 Shuriken Cannon Platforms – 190 pts

20 Guardians – 2 Shuriken Cannon Platforms – 190 pts

5 Rangers – 50 pts

OrdoSean wrote:

kingheff wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:

kingheff wrote:

At 200 pts he's a great unit at 250 he's probably too expensive for competitive but perfectly useable.

Too expensive yes. Too expensive for competitive? But he just won a 73 person tournament.

Happy to be proven wrong, any idea of the army list?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/765006.page

Some charged discussion about how it’s terrible and shouldn’t have been able to win.

Quite an interesting list, seems like the fearless aura was to keep the guardians alive for board control. Thanks for the link.

Pretty surprising list. I'm curious as to what happened there because I'm definitely inclined to agree with the naysayers trashing those unit choices. Guardians are like paper even when fearless. Once the skyweavers go down, I'm not seeing many other serious threats to any reasonably screened heavy armor. I mean, everything else literally has to walk up the board to even do anything. Maybe DS'ing both guardian squads was enough to completely clear enemy screens?

Two quick questions:

Does the "Vauls Wrath" strat mean that death-spinner weapon batteries have a -4 ap when they wound on 5+, or does it still need to be a natural 6?

How magnetizable is the Wrath Knight? I'll likely only ever own one, would like to future proof

Wraithknight can be magnetized with all loadouts possible. I have 2 and both are magnetized. Just be sure to use strong enough magnets. I'm sure there are tutorials on youtube. I heavely modified my WKs, so I can't really give you precise tips.

NuhJuhKuh wrote:

Does the "Vauls Wrath" strat mean that death-spinner weapon batteries have a -4 ap when they wound on 5+, or does it still need to be a natural 6?

I think the Vauls Might stratagem allows you to re-roll your wound rolls of 1, not add 1.

Such a shame Support Batteries aren't that effective this edition, they sit in that nice 50-75 point point bracket useful to round off a list when you don't have 100+ points to spare on another bigger unit. And they were a brutal Dark Horse in 7th thanks to the durability of gun platforms.

Spartacus wrote:

NuhJuhKuh wrote:

Does the "Vauls Wrath" strat mean that death-spinner weapon batteries have a -4 ap when they wound on 5+, or does it still need to be a natural 6?

I think the Vauls Might stratagem allows you to re-roll your wound rolls of 1, not add 1.

Such a shame Support Batteries aren't that effective this edition, they sit in that nice 50-75 point point bracket useful to round off a list when you don't have 100+ points to spare on another bigger unit. And they were a brutal Dark Horse in 7th thanks to the durability of gun platforms.

D cannons are actually really good. All support weapons really need to be able to move and shoot with no penalty though IMO.

Worth to remember Vaul's have the guardian keyword, wich may allow some stratagems like Ulthwe black guardians or celestial shield to affect them.

Can't check my codex now so not sure if those stratagems are inf only or can affect vehicles.

Niiru wrote:


The Prince has more attacks (depending on weapon loadout, it's usually either about the same or several attacks extra).

The Prince can move at 12" vs the Avatar's 7".

Don't forget prince's tend to have this keyword "fly" which even with the faq nerf is still bloody good and one of the best keywords you can have in the game. Mobility difference isn't just 5".

Albeit different units etc. To utilize that 12" fly you would be less effective aura provider so...

Hi everybody,
i am still not sure how to support my army with psyker. At 2k i usually run something like:

- 2X Dire Avengers in 2 Wave Serpent
- 1X Ranger
- 2X5 Dark Reaper/ 1X10 Dark Reaper
- 1X5 Spears + 1 Autarch Skyrunner
- 2 Hemlocks/ 1 Hemlock, 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch (Jinx)
- Usually Alaitoc

Now here is the problem i have, usually i go for:
-1 Farseer Skyrunner (Fortune + Doom)
-1 Warlock Skyrunner (Protect)
Both in the Shining Spears for sweet 3++ 4+++ 5+++; i can use Seer Council with them.

So i if i pass all the tests i have a hard to kill Spear unit and can burst down a Target with Jinx and Doom (obviously just in an ideal case).

But i feel its too all or nothing for the Spears and i would like to make use of Guide for the Reapers.
How do you guys use your Psyker? More defensive or offensive? What combinations do you normally go for? I am curious about your feedback!
Cheers!

Edit: No protect + fortune, sorry.

Unless I'm mistaken Fortune doesn't benefit from Protect (since FnPs arent saving throws) so you're not getting a 4+++.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm also debating if I should make my Harlequin detachment Ynnari. Trying to pilot a list similar to the one that Sean Nayden won a GT with recently:

Harlequin Dreaming Shadow Outrider:
Troupe Master
Solitaire
6 Skyweavers, 6 haywire cannons
3 Skyweavers, 3 haywire cannons
3 Skyweavers, 3 haywire cannons

Cult of the Cursed Blade Battalion:
Succubus
Succubus
5 Wyches
5 Wyches
18 Wyches, 2 shardnets

Ynnari Battalion:
Yncarne
Eldrad
5 Rangers
20 guardians, 2 shurikan platforms
20 guardians, 2 shurikan platforms

Of course, I would have to tweak the points to make the Yvraine appear instead of the Troupe Master, but do you guys think its a good idea to do so?

Those gardians would be better suited as ulthwe.
Harlequins are always better being harlequin codex.
Wyches are garbage.

My 2 cents.

Wyches on foot are pretty bad yes, but deep striking them is not awful. Come in on turn 2 with 2 levels of power from pain?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barboggo wrote:
Pretty surprising list. I'm curious as to what happened there because I'm definitely inclined to agree with the naysayers trashing those unit choices. Guardians are like paper even when fearless. Once the skyweavers go down, I'm not seeing many other serious threats to any reasonably screened heavy armor. I mean, everything else literally has to walk up the board to even do anything. Maybe DS'ing both guardian squads was enough to completely clear enemy screens?

So I was there and although I only heard about his games anecdotally, he beat:

A very good player with a triple Riptide Tau list
Abaddon and 150 cultists plus Ahriman and a bloodletter bomb
90 plagubearers + support characters (and some thousand sons for extra mortals)
The standard Castellan + Custodes Supreme Command + IG Brigade (in the finals)
Triple Vault (though that matchup was somewhat unfair for the necron player with that crazy Harlequin “shoot necrons on a 2+ as I die” thing)
Someone else who was 3-0 on day 1. May have been 6 wave serpents and 3 Ravagers, but don’t quote me on that

TLDR it was a very competitive tournament with 90 + people showing up. Sean has always been able to do things that the rest of us can only dream about. His opponents were all undefeated entering into the game against him.

especially since Turn 2 is reroll charges so that makes them a little more dangerous.

To bad there isnt any BatReps of his games with this list.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm also debating if I should make my Harlequin detachment Ynnari. Trying to pilot a list similar to the one that Sean Nayden won a GT with recently:

Harlequin Dreaming Shadow Outrider:
Troupe Master
Solitaire
6 Skyweavers, 6 haywire cannons
3 Skyweavers, 3 haywire cannons
3 Skyweavers, 3 haywire cannons

Cult of the Cursed Blade Battalion:
Succubus
Succubus
5 Wyches
5 Wyches
18 Wyches, 2 shardnets

Ynnari Battalion:
Yncarne
Eldrad
5 Rangers
20 guardians, 2 shurikan platforms
20 guardians, 2 shurikan platforms

Of course, I would have to tweak the points to make the Yvraine appear instead of the Troupe Master, but do you guys think its a good idea to do so?

Those gardians would be better suited as ulthwe.
Harlequins are always better being harlequin codex.
Wyches are garbage.

My 2 cents.

Wyches on foot are pretty bad yes, but deep striking them is not awful. Come in on turn 2 with 2 levels of power from pain?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barboggo wrote:
Pretty surprising list. I'm curious as to what happened there because I'm definitely inclined to agree with the naysayers trashing those unit choices. Guardians are like paper even when fearless. Once the skyweavers go down, I'm not seeing many other serious threats to any reasonably screened heavy armor. I mean, everything else literally has to walk up the board to even do anything. Maybe DS'ing both guardian squads was enough to completely clear enemy screens?

So I was there and although I only heard about his games anecdotally, he beat:

A very good player with a triple Riptide Tau list
Abaddon and 150 cultists plus Ahriman and a bloodletter bomb
90 plagubearers + support characters (and some thousand sons for extra mortals)
The standard Castellan + Custodes Supreme Command + IG Brigade (in the finals)
Triple Vault (though that matchup was somewhat unfair for the necron player with that crazy Harlequin “shoot necrons on a 2+ as I die” thing)
Someone else who was 3-0 on day 1. May have been 6 wave serpents and 3 Ravagers, but don’t quote me on that

TLDR it was a very competitive tournament with 90 + people showing up. Sean has always been able to do things that the rest of us can only dream about. His opponents were all undefeated entering into the game against him.

Not sold on the witches (in fact they are garbage no mater how you slice it) - though your list that has yncarne instead of a trashatar is MUCH better. Though the way yncarne deploys is just awful.

I'd scrub the wyche cult units and take a DE batallion with khabs in venoms.
or another option is making your harlequin detachment into a batallion with troops

Does Sean ever write anything, blogs or such? I'd be really interested to hear how he runs his lists, they're always swerve balls! It's funny, people are presented with evidence that this list beat a lot of very competitive lists lpayed by great players, and it dosn't compute. Should be possible. Those units are trash. Etc, etc. We need some more risk taking and building for specific tactics in our community, and it would be great to have people like Sean leading the way.

 grouchoben wrote:
Does Sean ever write anything, blogs or such? I'd be really interested to hear how he runs his lists, they're always swerve balls! It's funny, people are presented with evidence that this list beat a lot of very competitive lists lpayed by great players, and it dosn't compute. Should be possible. Those units are trash. Etc, etc. We need some more risk taking and building for specific tactics in our community, and it would be great to have people like Sean leading the way.

He has a dakka account. He responded in the battle report thread about this tournament.

Clealy the whole list isn't trash - harlie bikes are teir 1 and specialize at killing knights and wave serpents. As are solitaires and eldrad. The gardians are okay - I often deep strike full 20 man gardians. It's just his ancillary choices that are garbage...Ra instead of autarch - avatar??? wyches??? Ra is decent but autarch is better. Avatar is hella bad - wyches are garbo.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Does Sean ever write anything, blogs or such? I'd be really interested to hear how he runs his lists, they're always swerve balls! It's funny, people are presented with evidence that this list beat a lot of very competitive lists lpayed by great players, and it dosn't compute. Should be possible. Those units are trash. Etc, etc. We need some more risk taking and building for specific tactics in our community, and it would be great to have people like Sean leading the way.

He has a dakka account. He responded in the battle report thread about this tournament.

You mean the 2 things about how good some of the units are that he took? Something many of use already been saying.

What makes a good player an amazing player is knowing when and what to do at the right times.

Like against certain armies he should DS a guardian squad or 2, other times the Wyches, other times DS nothing, maybe play hyper aggressive, or completely defensive. Strategies in playing an army are not stagnate, you need to adjust to what you are facing. Yes you need a clear goal in mind but its the movements, deployments and target priorities that players want to see ESPECIALLY at a GT level as most of us dont get to be on those top tables.

Even long time veteran players that knows all the stats/mathhammer, and are good players can always learn from others.

It would be nice to see some reports of it.