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Simple question. If my unit takes a wound from a from an AP 3 weapon (strength not being double my toughness) and my armor save is 4+(5i). I roll off the invulnerable and fail, can I then roll a Feel No Pain roll?

You can take FNP against AP3 weapons even if you don't have an invulnerable save.

If it was AP 2 and you failed the Invul however, you could not take FNP

Yes you can.

ok. the FNP + Inv is clear now, thanks!


Now what Gwar! said has brought up another question.

You can take FNP against AP3 weapons even if you don't have an invulnerable save.

So even without the Inv save, in this scenario, I can make a FNP roll? I though FNP was only for failed saves, as in you get to roll a saving throw and fail. How do you get a FNP roll when no save is allowed?

Auto Failing the save still counts as failing. Even if you don't have an armour save (such as Plaugebearers) you still get FNP if the attack could give an armour save to something somewhere.

The only thing that Denies FNP are things that Allow no Armour save under any circumstances ever in any way shape or form, such as, AP1, AP2, Power Weapons etc.

Gwar! wrote:Auto Failing the save still counts as failing. Even if you don't have an armour save (such as Plaugebearers) you still get FNP if the attack could give an armour save to something somewhere.

The only thing that Denies FNP are things that Allow no Armour save under any circumstances ever in any way shape or form, such as, AP1, AP2, Power Weapons etc.

Aah, it all makes sense now. Thank you Sir!

Gwar! wrote:The only thing that Denies FNP are things that Allow no Armour save under any circumstances ever in any way shape or form, such as, AP1, AP2, Power Weapons etc.

And the relevant rules are on page 75 of the BGB.

"Feel No Pain: If the model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice."

The term "Unsaved Wound" is pretty clear cut. An AP3 hit to a plague marine would be an "Unsaved Wound". As for what denies Feel No Pain, that is on the same page as above.

"This ability cannot be used from weapons that inflict instant death. Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 or 2 weapons, power weapons, or any other weapon against which no save may be taken. (Like wounds from Powerfists, Dreadnought CCW's, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc.)"

The difference in terminology between AP cancelling armor saves and for example Power Weapons stating "No save may be attempted" are the key in whether or not you get a Feel No Pain save or not.

So feel no pain still applies even if it is an AP3 shot. The only time FNP does not apply in instances where universally no armor saves can be taken, not specific instances. that makes things much more interesting and clearer.

Yep. Just think of whether or not a terminator would get his save.

yeah,
I thought i had a grip on this but it's confusing... Just to confirm.

So a PlagueBearer gets his inv against a powersword but does not get his FNP.

A PlagueMarine doesn't get his armour save but does get his FNP against plasma?

Panic...

Disregard the invulnerable save entirely, it has nothing to do with Feel no Pain.

Since nothing can ever get an armor save against AP2 weapons, AP2 weapons ignore Feel no Pain. (So, to answer your question, neither the Plague Bearer nor the Plague Marine gets it.)

Remember, the specifics of the model with Feel no Pain don't matter whatsoever. If a weapon ignores Feel no Pain, it ignores it when used against every unit. If a weapon does not ignore it, it never ignores it.

Panic wrote:yeah,
I thought i had a grip on this but it's confusing... Just to confirm.

So a PlagueBearer gets his inv against a powersword but does not get his FNP.

Correct, since the PW ignores FNP

A PlagueMarine doesn't get his armour save but does get his FNP against plasma?

Panic...

Incorrect. Plasma is AP2, so per the FNP rules he gets no FNP roll. However, if you want an example of him not getting an armor save, but getting FNP, let's hit him with a krak missile. It is AP 3 so Mr. Plaguemarine get's no armor save. The missile, however doesn't ignore ALL armor saves, so he still gets his FNP roll to ignore the wound.

I hope that helps.

Kyrolon wrote:Incorrect. Plasma is AP2, so per the FNP rules he gets no FNP roll. However, if you want an example of him not getting an armor save, but getting FNP, let's hit him with a krak missile. It is AP 3 so Mr. Plaguemarine get's no armor save. The missile, however doesn't ignore ALL armor saves, so he still gets his FNP roll to ignore the wound.

As examples go, that is a terrible and incorrect one. Plague Marines have Toughness 4(5), so Strength 8 still inflicts Instant Death, which negates FnP.

A Better example would be if a Plague marine was hit by a Ion Cannon. S7 AP3. Gets no Armour save, but can take FnP because it does not cause Instant Death

Can I ask a third question, if a Warrior has both Eternal Warrior and feel no pain does that mean he can make FNP rolls against things that inflinct instant death, or not?

combo wrote:Can I ask a third question, if a Warrior has both Eternal Warrior and feel no pain does that mean he can make FNP rolls against things that inflinct instant death, or not?

That's a Good Question. EW says "The model is immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule." I think it would allow FnP, because the model is suffering 1 wound instead of Instant Death because the model is completely immune to ID.

Gwar! wrote:

combo wrote:Can I ask a third question, if a Warrior has both Eternal Warrior and feel no pain does that mean he can make FNP rolls against things that inflinct instant death, or not?

That's a Good Question. EW says "The model is immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule." I think it would allow FnP, because the model is suffering 1 wound instead of Instant Death because the model is completely immune to ID.

"This ability cannot be used against ... instant death ... even if the model is an eternal warrior."

It's about in the middle of the Instant Death paragraph.

So, a plague bearer, for example, does not get FnP against S10 or instant death weapons.

you are 100percent correct, just checked.

Was gwar wrong, or just not in the full possession of the facts?!

Woops, I missed that

So yeah, no FNP for you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

combo wrote:you are 100percent correct, just checked.

Was gwar wrong, or just not in the full possession of the facts?!

Not in full possession of the facts, as I am working of memory ATM (not got the rulebooks to hand). I admit I made a mistake due to faulty memory however and as such retract my previous statement

combo wrote:you are 100percent correct, just checked.

Was gwar wrong, or just not in the full possession of the facts?!

Usually both. Best to put him on your Ignore list.

An interesting note is that there was an argument during 4th edition about whether models with Eternal Warrior got Feel No Pain rolls where equivalent non-Eternal Warrior models would be denied them. I pointed out that the Eternal Warrior rule prevented the effect of the Instant Death rule, rather than making a model immune to whatever might cause Instant Death, and hence would deny a model its Feel No Pain roll. Since then the authors of 5th edition made it explicit for the mouth-breather crowd, and even added additional ways in which a model might be denied its Feel No Pain roll (wounded by AP1 or AP2 shooting).

Nurglitch wrote:Usually both. Best to put him on your Ignore list.

My Signature disagrees with you.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:Incorrect. Plasma is AP2, so per the FNP rules he gets no FNP roll. However, if you want an example of him not getting an armor save, but getting FNP, let's hit him with a krak missile. It is AP 3 so Mr. Plaguemarine get's no armor save. The missile, however doesn't ignore ALL armor saves, so he still gets his FNP roll to ignore the wound.

As examples go, that is a terrible and incorrect one. Plague Marines have Toughness 4(5), so Strength 8 still inflicts Instant Death, which negates FnP.

A Better example would be if a Plague marine was hit by a Ion Cannon. S7 AP3. Gets no Armour save, but can take FnP because it does not cause Instant Death

I did forget to take the 4(5) into account. Last time I played against plague marines they were just T5 IIRC (that was early 3rd edition).

@ Nurglitch- lol

@ Gwar- after nearly 6k posts, I wouldn't be boasting or usiing even as a reference, the number of agreements in your sig, Sirrah. But I must say, you really do know your stuff (Meant as an honest compliment)

OT- Does this rule conflict with the 5th Ed Version of SM Bionics? Or do they walk hand in hand, down the primrose path?

GWAR-The only thing that Denies FNP are things that Allow no Armour save under any circumstances ever in any way shape or form, such as, AP1, AP2, Power Weapons etc.

Um, do you mean like Weapons that Pariha's use? As opposed to Power Weapons, which still let you make an Invul and/or Bionics save?

Is it the wording dude? Or are you being VERY specific with your wording regarding "Armour Saves" as opposed to "Invul Saves".

Didn't a chart get made a while back? I'ma go find it...

Edit: Found it, Gwar! and I made this helpful chart. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/243240.page

FNP vs AP - = Yes
FNP vs AP 6 = Yes
FNP vs AP 5 = Yes
FNP vs AP 4 = Yes
FNP vs AP 3 = Yes
FNP vs AP 2 = No
FNP vs AP 1 = No
FNP vs Tx2 = No
FNP vs S D = No
FNP vs Power weapons = No
FNP vs No retreat = Yes
FNP vs Gets Hot = Yes
FNP vs Perils of the warp = No
FNP vs Demon Weapon rolls of 1 = No

Panic wrote:yeah,
I thought i had a grip on this but it's confusing... Just to confirm.

So a PlagueBearer gets his inv against a powersword but does not get his FNP.

A PlagueMarine doesn't get his armour save but does get his FNP against plasma?

Panic...

No.


This ain't hard, folks. A model cannot make it's Feel No Pain saving throw against wounds caused by an AP1 or AP2 shooting attack, an attack against which no armour saves can be taken, or an attack whose Strength is equal to twice the victim's Toughness.

In the example above the Plaguebearer doesn't get his FnP because he was wounded by a weapon against which no armour saves can be taken, and the Plague Marine doesn't get his FnP either because he was wounded by an AP2 weapon. To take it further, a Company Commander (T3) in a squad with a Medipack (which gives the squad FnP) who is wounded in CC by a Grey Knight battle brother's Nemesis Force Weapon (S6, allows armour saves) wouldn't be able to take his FnP, because despite the fact that the weapon doesn't ignore armour saves it's Strength is double his Toughness. A Great Unclean One (T6) wounded by a Battlecannon (S8) would get his FnP against the wound, because the weapon is less than twice his Tougness and does not ignore all armour saves (models with a 2+ armour save would be able to take their armour save against a Battlecannon wound).

A Plague Marine wounded by a Battlecannon does not get his FnP throw against the wound; NOT because the weapon is AP3 and ignores his armour save, but because it's Strength is twice his Toughness. He would be able to take his Feel No Pain saving throw against a wound caused by a Hot-Shot Lasgun (S3 AP3) because, even though it ignores the Plague Marine's armour save, it doesn't ignore ALL armour saves and it's Strength is not double his Toughness.

yeah,
got it now...
I had a brain fart and thought plasma was ap3...

Panic...

Gandair wrote:Didn't a chart get made a while back? I'ma go find it...

Edit: Found it, Gwar! and I made this helpful chart. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/243240.page

FNP vs AP - = Yes
FNP vs AP 6 = Yes
FNP vs AP 5 = Yes
FNP vs AP 4 = Yes
FNP vs AP 3 = Yes
FNP vs AP 2 = No
FNP vs AP 1 = No
FNP vs Tx2 = No
FNP vs S D = No
FNP vs Power weapons = No
FNP vs No retreat = Yes
FNP vs Gets Hot = Yes
FNP vs Perils of the warp = No
FNP vs Demon Weapon rolls of 1 = No

Might want to add Breath Of Chaos or the confusion will continue! Any model fully or partially under the template wounds on a 4+ without need to test against Toughness, and no Armour or Cover saves allowed.

And add dangerous terrain test-induced wounds as well. No save against those and no FNP.

Arschbombe wrote:And add dangerous terrain test-induced wounds as well. No armour or cover saves against those and no FNP.

Fix'd. but ultimately correct

Good catch. (To Arschbombe, not to you Gwar!. The cover saves have nothing to do with Feel no Pain. )

Why do we even need a chart when it's made clear in the BBB what negates FnP and what doesn't?