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Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Hemet, CA

Hey everyone, April & I have been toying with the idea of getting into fantasy just to have something different once in a while. She loves the look of high elves/lizardmen and I really love the warriors of chaos. Before we commit to actually buying stuff we wanted to see how people compare 40k to fantasy. I know the stats are somewhat similar but the magic phase, little rules (i.e. line of sight, charging rules, leadership, etc.), and the average cost is new to us. We're just looking for something similar to what we play but that would be distinctly different rules wise.

So, with that said, how would you guys & gals rate fantasy on a fun scale? We'll never get into tournament play, just play with each other and our friends occasionally--and have something very very different to paint. How much time does an average 1,000 point game take? Just give me your take on the two and outline some of the major differences that might catch our attention.

Thanks everyone!

Tired of reading new rulebooks... Just wanting to play. 
   
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Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






It's an awesome game!

It plays very differently to 40k however. Your setup can be key to victory, and it might take some time to be able to spot weaknesses in your opponents line and exploit them.

I'd reccomend heartily just starting out with Skull Pass. You get a decent variety of troops to start with, and you'll soon find out whether or not you'll love it or be immensely frustrated by it. That and the initial outlay isn't going to break the bank.

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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




Canada

It has a bit more disiplined feel too it. I think that they are in solid blocks of infantry with no gaps allowed
   
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Executing Exarch






Odenton, MD

Fantasy is a lot like chess, and is far more unforgiving to silly mistakes. That being said I have always enjoyed playing it more than 40k. Although lately have have lost all of my local competition.


My only complaint is that it is starting to drift towards "HeroHammer" again, and in its current incarnation you can not be competitive without a level 4 wizard and a couple lvl 2s.
   
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Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

I haven't played Fantasy before but something I'd be curious to know....

Do Orks (or Night Goblins I guess?) have wizards?

   
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Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

Warmaster is alot more fun and actually a lot more tactically minded toward postiioning etc.


Actually id say next ot maybe the Bloodbowl rule set Warmaster has the best rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 23:42:26


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Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Hemet, CA

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It's an awesome game!

It plays very differently to 40k however. Your setup can be key to victory, and it might take some time to be able to spot weaknesses in your opponents line and exploit them.

I'd reccomend heartily just starting out with Skull Pass. You get a decent variety of troops to start with, and you'll soon find out whether or not you'll love it or be immensely frustrated by it. That and the initial outlay isn't going to break the bank.


So you say it can be very frustrating... How so exactly? These are exactly the kind of statements I was looking to get answers to.

Tired of reading new rulebooks... Just wanting to play. 
   
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor







I prefer fantasy, but 99% of my current local players only play 40k, so I'm back in with that crowd for now.

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Swift Swooping Hawk





Calgary, AB

Dashofpepper wrote:I haven't played Fantasy before but something I'd be curious to know....

Do Orks (or Night Goblins I guess?) have wizards?


Yarr. They have shamans who used to have a brutally powerful Lore at their disposal. Now they're more middle of the road. Of course, they still follow the 'orcs and gobbos are random and probably kill themselves/eachother' rule. Which may or may not be part of why they're not super awesome.

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Tantras wrote: Logically speaking, that makes perfect sense and I understand and agree entirely... but is it RAW?
 
   
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Demogerg wrote:I prefer fantasy, but 99% of my current local players only play 40k, so I'm back in with that crowd for now.

That's how it is in a lot of places. It will always be easier to find opponents for 40K then Fantasy IMO.

   
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Dakka Veteran






40k is a lot more simple and balanced. The rules for some armies can really be abused to create some overpowered lists.

   
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Infiltrating Broodlord





Hemet, CA

40k is balanced?! Have you played 40k in 5th edition?

At any rate, does anyone have any answers to my question as to what the differences are? I appreciate the sentiment but I'm looking for more specifics on how the two differ to see what the main differences are.

Tired of reading new rulebooks... Just wanting to play. 
   
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Member of the Malleus





San Francisco Bay, CA, Ancient Terra, Sol System

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Hey everyone, April & I have been toying with the idea of getting into fantasy just to have something different once in a while. She loves the look of high elves/lizardmen and I really love the warriors of chaos.

We're just looking for something similar to what we play but that would be distinctly different rules wise.

So, with that said, how would you guys & gals rate fantasy on a fun scale?

How much time does an average 1,000 point game take?

As others will tell you, Fantasy isn't a bad break from 40k, but if:
- she likes HE and you like Chaos,
- you don't have anything
- you are just playing amongst yourselves
I'd strongly suggest LotR WotR (War of the Ring).

War of the Ring is GW Fantasy without all of the baggage carried over from years upon years of WFB:
- all new, realistic scale sculpts
- nearly all plastic
- reasonably priced (well, until the last increase)
- no extra Army Books / Codices required


Now that I'm done with WotR, I find WFB to be rather unnecessarily "fiddly", but that's how WFB players like things. WFB has low movement, and short ranges, so it's pretty much dependant upon deployment.


If I had to rate them:
- 5/5 Apocalypse 40k
- 4/5 regular 40k
- 2/5 regular WFB (I'm a Dogs of War player, no new Army Book for over 10 years)


Grunt_For_Christ wrote:40k is balanced?! Have you played 40k in 5th edition?

He said that 40k is *more* balanced than Fantasy, and based on that, one fairly concludes that he's played 40k5 and WFB7.

WFB7 army imbalance is much worse than in 40k, with top tier armies being so much stronger than bottom tier armies, it's no contest.

Luckily for you, you both picked mid-tier armies, and won't do tournaments, so balance wouldn't be as much of an issue.

   
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Manhunter




Eastern PA

i rate WHFB over 40k, even though i have been playing 40k for a long time and fantasy for only 2-3 years. apoc still reigns supreme though.

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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

40k all the way.

Fantasy if you are desperate.

But never, EVER War of the Ring. Don't do it man. Think of the children...

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Morphing Obliterator






Dashofpepper wrote:I haven't played Fantasy before but something I'd be curious to know....

Do Orks (or Night Goblins I guess?) have wizards?


Yes. My friend has both 40k orks and fantasy orcs. He has night goblin shamans.

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Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





South Carolina

I have played fantasy for only a few months but here are some of the differences (most of my FLGS is fantasy so i figured it be a nice break from 40k).

Movement - its not standard like in 40k, it depends on the unit, the army and even sometimes the equipment - barding on knights mostly
Shooting - big difference in rules as cover adds negative modifiers to your BS, as does moving and shooting at long range. Don't expect to kill entire units unless you focus lots of fire and some warmachienes on a unit. Useful to take away rank bonus.
Charging - its declaired at the start of the movement phase, so if you forget your hosed, also if your out of range you wind up in bad positioning.
Magic - not as hard as you would think, however usually you need to try and guess how much your opponent is bringing to stand a chance

Combat is typically won by static resolution and not by killing everything
Games are calculated by victory points, and certain things like your general and standards may give up more.
The way you deploy your army is critical, if you botch it - it can be a really bad day. Also your not guarenteed 1st or 2nd turn, if you deploy quicker then you get +1 to your roll to see who goes first.

I'm sure i can think of more if you need me to.

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Infiltrating Broodlord





Hemet, CA

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Hey everyone, April & I have been toying with the idea of getting into fantasy just to have something different once in a while. She loves the look of high elves/lizardmen and I really love the warriors of chaos.

We're just looking for something similar to what we play but that would be distinctly different rules wise.

So, with that said, how would you guys & gals rate fantasy on a fun scale?

How much time does an average 1,000 point game take?

As others will tell you, Fantasy isn't a bad break from 40k, but if:
- she likes HE and you like Chaos,
- you don't have anything
- you are just playing amongst yourselves
I'd strongly suggest LotR WotR (War of the Ring).

War of the Ring is GW Fantasy without all of the baggage carried over from years upon years of WFB:
- all new, realistic scale sculpts
- nearly all plastic
- reasonably priced (well, until the last increase)
- no extra Army Books / Codices required


Now that I'm done with WotR, I find WFB to be rather unnecessarily "fiddly", but that's how WFB players like things. WFB has low movement, and short ranges, so it's pretty much dependant upon deployment.


If I had to rate them:
- 5/5 Apocalypse 40k
- 4/5 regular 40k
- 2/5 regular WFB (I'm a Dogs of War player, no new Army Book for over 10 years)


Grunt_For_Christ wrote:40k is balanced?! Have you played 40k in 5th edition?

He said that 40k is *more* balanced than Fantasy, and based on that, one fairly concludes that he's played 40k5 and WFB7.

WFB7 army imbalance is much worse than in 40k, with top tier armies being so much stronger than bottom tier armies, it's no contest.

Luckily for you, you both picked mid-tier armies, and won't do tournaments, so balance wouldn't be as much of an issue.


This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for...

So firstly, Fantasy is even MORE imbalanced than 40k?! I really didn't think that was possible...

Secondly, we were looking at lotr and are interested, it's just the races don't look that interesting to us. I've heard that the rules are a lot more cumbersome than either 40k or fantasy--is there any truth to this?

Thirdly, it seems like absolutely everyone who's posted and who actually plays fantasy keeps hitting on deployment being the most important thing. That makes me question how much we'll like it as we don't really want that much strategy... Just good tactics. We work our strategic minds in 40k and that's good for us. We're mainly looking for a small hobby that will be mainly for painting and playing when our custom scenarios and 40k skirmishes just don't feel right. Basically we're looking for an hour or two pickup game that can be put together and torn apart with minimal fuss and minimal haggling of rules. Again, that's why we have 40k. With this in mind, would you still suggest looking more closely at lotr?

Thanks for the thoughtful response, this is definitely helping me get closer to a decision...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Casper wrote:I have played fantasy for only a few months but here are some of the differences (most of my FLGS is fantasy so i figured it be a nice break from 40k).

Movement - its not standard like in 40k, it depends on the unit, the army and even sometimes the equipment - barding on knights mostly
Shooting - big difference in rules as cover adds negative modifiers to your BS, as does moving and shooting at long range. Don't expect to kill entire units unless you focus lots of fire and some warmachienes on a unit. Useful to take away rank bonus.
Charging - its declaired at the start of the movement phase, so if you forget your hosed, also if your out of range you wind up in bad positioning.
Magic - not as hard as you would think, however usually you need to try and guess how much your opponent is bringing to stand a chance

Combat is typically won by static resolution and not by killing everything
Games are calculated by victory points, and certain things like your general and standards may give up more.
The way you deploy your army is critical, if you botch it - it can be a really bad day. Also your not guarenteed 1st or 2nd turn, if you deploy quicker then you get +1 to your roll to see who goes first.

I'm sure i can think of more if you need me to.


This was very well done and gives a lot of food for thought. A few points that came to me:

After reading through it carefully it seems like fantasy is a lot less forgiving on every level and it's more of an elite game for people who like lots of little ins and outs and put a lot of time into the thing. Do you think this (overall) describes the game?

Also, we're more looking to put time into painting, then taking 10 minutes to draw up a small list and then playing for a little bit... It sounds like there's a lot of work before, during, and after each game of fantasy, no matter how small it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 04:32:02


Tired of reading new rulebooks... Just wanting to play. 
   
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Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

The way my friend once summed up 40k to me when I was into fantasy and looking to try the GRIMDARK was "40k is a game of I HAVE A BIGGER GUN THAN YOU, DIE."
Fantasy shooting is far less effective, as you get penalties to your roll for things like distance and moving on the same turn you shoot.

There is some weird stuff to get used to, like the concept of marching, and using units to block marches. Magic is nowhere near as involved as it seems from the outside. A quick spin through the rulebook will tell you all you need to know with little confusion.

Movement. Trays. I hate moving up units one by one in fantasy.

Everything Casper said was pretty spot on.

Also, as a side note: Is the Dispel Scroll caddy still a necessity? It was back when I stopped playing. I always thought it was kind of weak.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Balance-wise, WotR is definitely your best bet. Or WarMaster. Both of these have single armies lists in the main book, so they've not had the time for imbalance to get worked in over years and years.

WotR is mechanically more different from 40k than WFB, but non-GW gamers are generally more impressed with WotR than WFB. Which is probably why they hadn't picked up WFB in the past couple decades. WotR also crosses outside of the 40k/WFB gaming circles. I heard the historicals crowd liked WotR more than WFB. OTOH, with WotR, you won't have 40k/WFB thoughts confusing things. As WotR is the newest mass battle game system from GW, I think it is the most streamlined of the lot.

WFB is deployment-heavy, because models move about 4" per turn, 8" if running, less if turning or reshuffilng. There are no Transports to hoof units 12+", much less Fast Transports zipping things 24". Nor Deep Strikers. What you place is what you live (or die) with.

Based on your follow-up, I'll direct you away from WotR toward Specialist Games. If you're looking for very small scale skirmish battle, Mordheim and Necromunda are excellent, along with BFG. Mordheim is great if you stick to the rulebook. Necromunda isn't as refined, being an older game. BFG is awesome fun, too. Did you look at these as options?

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




You know you're playing fantasy when:
- you don't roll for mission scenario
- you must have a hill in every deploy zone
- you must bring one or more dispel scrolls
- you always take a musician and standardbearer when available
- both players are always trying to assault each other's units in the flank
- your enemy can toss a unit smack in the middle of your army to block your marchmoves but you can't shoot or assault it

"ANY" includes the special ones 
   
Made in de
Hollerin' Herda with Squighound Pack





Hi,
I think WHFB is far more tactical than 40k. Warhammer 40k is very cool because of the great fluff and all the cool troops/tanks/weaponry. But Fantasy is more tactical. In 40k there are a lot of tricks and list-building you can use. Then you deploy and then 40k is a very aggressive game - shooting with nearly every unit and then charging and having 40+ melee-attacks. But in Fantasy, you have to carefully manouever your blocks of infantry, the movement-phase is really important, magic adds another factor to the tactical depth, firing a canon is a real effort and so on. And, I think, a game of Warhammer Fantasy can be won by skill only, not by luck. In 40k you charge, knowing that you have for example a 70% chance of winning combat. In warhammer fantasy, you can get flank and rear charges, which enable you to win combat just by standing in the right position, even if you miss with all your attacks.

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[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







JHDD and GFC you're having something of a disconnect.

JHDD is talking about War of the Ring, the mass combat game set in the Lord of the Rings
Universe.

Grunt, I think the things you hear about LOTR being cumbersome are based on the
skirmish game, not the mass combat game. The mass combat game does not seem
cumbersome at all (though I haven't played it, just painting an army up for it).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nostromo wrote:
- you always take a musician and standardbearer when available


Not true. You don't put standards on scouting skirmishers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 13:28:29


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Skink Salamander Handler




A 1000 point game of Fantasy will take you roughly 1 to 1.5 hours. As everyone's said, fantasy is much more about movement and tactical positioning. That being said, it's a very fun game, and those armies you both are considering are pretty evenly balanced so I don't see that as being an issue. What will make your games together fun will be building your army lists together, not secretly/seperately. WoC are CC oriented. While HE's can focus on any phase really (Magic, shooty, CC) and Lizards are about the same. I'd say if you like how the models look and are both interested, why wouldn't you play?

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Stinky Spore




Far too close for comfort

The reason deployment is critical to Fantasy is because units can only see what is in a 90 degree arc in front of them. If a enemy unit is two inches away but out of that cone that you can't charge them and can only shoot them with penalty's.
In my opinion Fantasy is much more focused on the tiny details where 1/2 an inch matters while 40K allows for more flexibility and thus a smoother game.
I have never played LoTR or WoTR but that may be the way to go if you just want to get a quick game in before Law&Order comes on.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






I haven't played fantasy in a few years, but I built a few armies up and played it for a few years. I got to tell you that IMO 40K for me is the better game. Remember I said for ME. :-) I like to play a faster paced style of game, without a lot of the "fiddly" bits. Don't get me wrong WFB can be fun, but if given the choice of spending my time and money, I would rather put it on a game I enjoy more, and that's 40K.

Also one of the things that started to turn me off a bit was the whole, "Lets line em up like Brave heart" rince and repeat feel. That style of play is ok every now and then for a break from 40k, but I got burned out on it. 40k has tanks, flyers, titans, long ranges it's just more fluid and fast.

my 2 cents,
GG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 16:32:10


 
   
Made in us
Uhlan





Michigan

I started with WHFB and thought it was an amazing game. In terms of strategy and tactics, I think WHFB has the edge over 40K. Though good die rolls can save you in both games, they're less important in Fantasy. The easiest way to sum up the difference between the two is to say that 40K is far simpler. Every little inch, every little angle and every little bit of terrain make a difference in Fantasy. It's a lot to learn and when I first began, 500 point games took me 2-3 hours.

Nowadays I prefer 40K. 1500 point games aren't so stressful or mentally taxing and don't take nearly as long as Fantasy (IMO).
   
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Sinewy Scourge





Bothell, WA

I was about to get into fantasy right before WOTR came out. Fantasy seems to be all about deployment, deathstar units, and magic. Playing through 3 practice games of Fantasy made me not really like it very much.

My friends who tried to get me into fantasy did have the following things to say:

Fantasy is much more unbalanced then 40k, some armys have no chance against others in a competive enviroment.

Fantasy has 25+ years of rules that not all make complete scense but are holdovers from a previous time.

Fantasy games tend to follow the same game flow each game in terms of move the hardest to kill unit forward, try to charge flanks, get into mass combat.



So instead I started WOTR and am very glad that I did it. Here is why:

The models are Super easy to put together: I assemembed over 200 models in an afternoon.

The models are true to scale meaning they are very easy to paint

1 rulebook

Allies: 25% of your army can be from another army as long as it fighting on your side. Like I can have a Elf army and up to 25% can be from any other good army, so even if I'm running all elves I can ally in Ents, some rohan riders, hobits, or even gimli!

No force org chart. All you need is a Hero and as many common units as you have rare units.

The game plays very well. Things move fast, models start dying very early, and you get to charge every single turn.

A big group of us (10 people) in my FLGS is building WOTR armies. I'd check it out before diving into Fantasy.

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Outflanking

Fantasy is much more tacticaly involved, but 40k tends to favour longer-term strategies, if that makes sense? Fantasy doesn't have objectives, so about 99% of all games are based on slaughtering your opponents army. 40k, on the other hand, can be won by one Grot sitting on an objective faceing all your foes army.

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