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Hi folks,
I was playing with some ideas for the new eldar codex. So here are some of my suggestions, feel free to add anything you want to see happening!

Army wide:
- Star cannon: S6 AP2 Assault 3 (again)
- Bright lance decreased by 10 points (for every unit)
- Vectored engines decreased by 5 points (for every unit)
- power weapon generally reduced to 5 points
- holo field works like venerability, so ask to reroll, not two dices, pick lowest
- holo fields decreased by 15 points for all units


On a side note, I would suggest the following modelwise:
- plastic Wraithguard
- plastic autarch
- plastic Warp Spiders
- plastic Swooping hawks
- new plastic Jetbikes
- plastic combination kit for Falcon/Prism (updating the falcon slightly a la russ kit)
- Add-on sprue for big guns for the Wraithlord. Could be combined with a redo of the support weapon platforms.

HQ

Autarch:

- Increasing Initiative from 6 to 7
- Option for Shimmershield (5++ save in cc for his squad)
- Once per game, you can ask to reroll the die if the game ends.
- 10 point decrease
- Option for Ranger long rifle. 10 points
- Options for fast shot, crack shot, tank hunter, withdraw, defend, acrobatic, shadowstrike, stealth, intercept or skyleap for 10 points each (not transferred to squad)


Farseer

- Rune armor gives the farseer a 3++ save
- Jetbike increased by 10 points
- Spirit stones decreased by 10 points
- Mind war: After the victim lost a wound, you can roll again. Proceed until the victim wins the roll off , or is dead.
- Eldrich storm is now S4 Ap5 Barrage 2 large blast weapon, vehicles hit suffer a glancing hit.
- New psychic power: Target vehicle or unit in 12", unit or vehicle is thrown back 2d6 inch in a straight line from the seer. Vehicles get a glancing hit, units go to ground, resolve ramming and tank shocks for units in the way for the vehicle (I hope I made it somewhat clear)

Warlocks

- increase jetbike cost by 5 points
- increasing ld to 9
- Embolden works like Stubborn
- Conceal work like Stealth and is reduced by 5 points

Avatar

- increased by 15 points
- T increased to 7

Elite

Striking scorpions

- increasing points by 2
- Increase attacks to 2
- increase exarchs attacks to 3
- exarch can have the stealth power for his squad. 15 Points

Fire dragons

- Crack shot up to 30 points but the whole squad gains it

Wraithguard

- increase W to 2
- a unit of 5 wraithguard led by a spiritseer can be taken as a troop choice
- Spiritseer + 30 Points

Banshees

- increasing points by 2
- increase Attacks to 2
- increase exarchs attacks to 3
- Warshout increased to 15 points but always works
- Arobatic increased to 10 points

Harlequin troupe

- decreased by 2 points
- Veil counts as normal nighfight
- If unit is 10 strong, one member can be upgraded to a troupe leader for 15 points
- one Harlequin can be upgraded to a shadowseer for +15 points (halfed)
- Units losing models against shots by the shrieker cannon fall back automatically

Wave serpent

- decreased points by 15
- decreased star cannons by 5
- decreased scatter laser by 5

Troops

Dire Avengers

- The squad can be fitted with plasma grenades for 1 point per model
- The exarch can be fitted with a shimmershield for 10 points
- the exarch can be fitted with a diresword for 8 points
- the exarch can be fitted with a executioner for 10 points (2handed, +2 S power weapon)
- the exarch has the "true grit" special rule (streamlined: his catapult counts as a pistol)

Rangers

- decrease basic ranger by 4 points
- the long rifle doesn't have Ap1 when 6 to hit
- have the scout special rule
- pathfinders rend on 5+

Guardians

- decrease by 1 point
- max unit size = 10
- fitted with defensive grenades
- can still shoot the weapon platform when gone to ground
- storm guardians have plasma grenade instead of defensive grenades

Fast attack

Shining spears

- increase attacks to 2
- increase exarchs attacks to 3
- Withdraw exarch power decreased by 5 points

Warp spiders

- increase points by 3 per model
- changing death spinner to S4 AP- template weapon
- double spinner: S5 AP5 template
- spinneret rifle: 18" S7 Ap1 assault 2
- surprise assault: 10 points. After deep striking, unit can assault

Swooping hawks

- Lasblaster: 24" S3 AP6 Assault 3 pinning
- lose the grenade pack
- Sunrifle: 24" S3 AP6 assault 10 pinning
- Hawks talon: 24" S5 AP6 assault 4
- Skyleap is reduced by 5 points
- Haywire granades damage as follows: 1-3 vehicle is stunned, 4-6 vehicle is immobilized.
- decreased by 3 points

Vyper

- point decreased by 10 points
- eml decreased by 5 points
- scatter laser decreased by 5 points
- star engines decreased by 5 points
- spirit stones decreased by 5 points
- Able to deep strike

Heavy Support

Heavy weapon support teams

- before the first shot, apply night fight rules
- Guardians always count in 4+ cover (combining to 3+ if accompanied by a concealing warlock)
- D-Cannon: 36" SX AP2 Heavy 1, Blast, Barrage
- Vibro Cannon: 48" S5 AP- Heavy 1, Pinning (every additional platform adds 1 S)
- Shadow weaver: 48" S6 AP6 Heavy 1, Barrage, large blast

Dark Reaper

- Exarch powers: Crack shot -> increased to 30 points, effects the whole squad
- Exarch powers: Fast shot -> increased to 30 points, effects the whole squad
- Exarch powers: relentless for 30 points, effects the whole squad

Wraithlord

- eml decreased by 5 points
- scatter laser decreased by 5 points
- shuriken cannon decreased by 5 points
- Wraithsword increases to 20 points, adds 2 attacks
- option for shield which gives 5++ save for 25 points
- option for a single D-Cannon for 35 points
- option for one or two vibro cannons for 20 points per gun (two guns giving it S6 and twin link)
- option for one shadow weaver for 15 points


Falcon

- decrease points by 25 points
- turrent counts as one offensive weapon
- decrease scatter laser by 5 points

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sooo, many decreases as you can see, but i hope nothing overpowering.
Wanted to differentiate the craftworlds a bit more and buffing the underpowered choices (especially vypers and hawks)
Some changes are just ideas thrown in.Some units haven't got a treatment because i either feel they are fine or haven't got experience with them.
Tell me what you think!

Greets
Schepp himself

Suggestions in the thread:

- Giving the farseer better powers
- Third HQ choice, better warlock leader for example
- Add Bonesinger
- changing wraithguard fundamentally
- Wraithguard -> FNP
- melee aspects WS5 (instead of A2)
- Wave serpent gains scout and/or ability to drop troops midflight (a la vendetta)
- Ranger warlock addon
- further defining the different roles for warp spiders and swooping hawks
- making the Warp spider launcher better. Suggestion is S4 AP5 template.
- shifting the falcon in the Fast section
- Turning the Vyper into an attack bike
- Making the Vyper enclosed
- Give Reapers 2+ AS

- Light transport option
- differentiating the shuriken cannon and the scatter laser
- Craftworld specific advantages
- Adding a special rule for Eldar to make them faster/more mobile
- Making reserves, rolls for turns etc. less random for eldar
- Harlequin transport (Venom)
- Harlequin units (Mimes etc.)

I think some good ideas except avatars melta shot. That's good. Mainly id like to see better pshychic powers, evin if it is for a points increase, Wraithlords/ wraithguards should have more attacks: 4 for wraithlord and 2 for wraithguard, striking scorpion idea is good too. Vipers i thinkshould be better and have either, choice of two weapons, cheaper or better AV. Also ithink rangers should perhaps have better weapons

Ranger laser rifle: Range 36" SX AP2 Rules: Pinning, Heavy 1, Sniper

And perhaps allow a "camo" warlock to join the squad

Two things I don't like.

1. Eldritch Storm should be a massively powerful psychic power, not a piss-weak electric shock that can't even ignore flak armour. I'd give it at least AP4.

2. Why do Warp Spiders have to have S3 AP- weapons? Why not give them all S4 AP5 template weapons, so they've got a happy-medium between strength and AP?

Eldar Own wrote:I think some good ideas except avatars melta shot. That's good. Mainly id like to see better pshychic powers, evin if it is for a points increase, Wraithlords/ wraithguards should have more attacks: 4 for wraithlord and 2 for wraithguard, striking scorpion idea is good too. Vipers i thinkshould be better and have either, choice of two weapons, cheaper or better AV. Also ithink rangers should perhaps have better weapons

Ranger laser rifle: Range 36" SX AP2 Rules: Pinning, Heavy 1, Sniper

And perhaps allow a "camo" warlock to join the squad

Personal taste with the melta shot, I simply don't like it. Stylewise.

I wanted the Wraithguard more like a super anvil, making them resistant to anti-tank weaponry but not überpowerful.

I like the idea for rangers. But maybe AP3 base, you still have rending to crack those terminators and MCs.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Two things I don't like.

1. Eldritch Storm should be a massively powerful psychic power, not a piss-weak electric shock that can't even ignore flak armour. I'd give it at least AP4.

2. Why do Warp Spiders have to have S3 AP- weapons? Why not give them all S4 AP5 template weapons, so they've got a happy-medium between strength and AP?

True, the Eldritch strom could be buffed imo.

Concerning the Warp Spiders: I thought that a jump squad with flamers (let's say 8) blasting away with standard flamers could be a bit overpowered. How many hits do you get per flamer template? Maybe 6? That's a lot of wounds. I like when an Armor save of 5+ and 6+ is not just for show and get negated by all weapons anyway. Why then give units a armor save worse than 4+ anyway?

But the general idea was to give the Spiders their template weapons back. Eldar have no problem with S6 weaponry.

Thanks for the replies!

Greets
Schepp himself

Falcon

- decrease points by 10 points
- decrease scatter laser by 5 points
- decrease bright lance by 10 points
- decrease star cannon by 5 points
- decrease holo fields by 5 points
- decrease vectored engines by 5 points

Also make this a fast attack choice even with these reductions there's heavy choices which are much better value.

As far as psychic powers go, Eldar should be as powerful if not more so than Marines and at the very least I would expect a couple more powers added. Perhaps 2 versions of Eldritch Storm? ala focused and unfocused shot. Maybe some sort of movement based power, Farseers could also get more powerful versions of warlock powers (pick a unit to be able to auto pass/fail Ld, re-rolls to hit in combat, +2 to cover saves etc).

On the whole I think the points adjustments for the weapons are good (they should really be the same across the board which would save you writing it everywhere). The starcannon should really either get the points breaks or return to its old profile but not both, otherwise we just change from scatter lasers to starcannons again. Tbh I think the shuriken cannon should gain pinning to give some advantage over the scatter laser which has a very similar role.

Retinue for the Autarch doesn't really make sense, probably better to just make him boost the skills of any unit he is with (maybe only guardians though). Warlocks should be Ld9, they are supposed to be battle leaders and are no better than any of the Guardians they are leading. I would also like to see another HQ choice added, something with 2W and fairly cheap (Guardian or Warlock Leader?) which would be helpful for smaller games and add some variety. Avatar is fine as is, melta shot is worth keeping and fluffy.

I would also like to see another transport, something similar to the old Harliequin transport, based off a Vyper chassis and could transport 6 (can't remember what it was called). This could fill the cheap transport slot and keep the Wave Serpents as a heavier, more expensive transport (they still need a points break).

So yeah on the whole I like it but its mostly just making minor changes to everything rather than the more drastic changes needed for some of the units which are currently useless or not worth taking, the changes often don't address the underlying flaws in the unit. Wraithguard for example, giving them 2W is all very well but it still doesn't change the fact that they have 12" guns and average at best in assaults (and too expensive to use as a suicide squad). Spiders and Hawks still have no real role, Falcons are horribly outclassed by Prisms and Vypers still drop like flies at the slightest sneeze.

This of course assumes that there aren't going to be any major changes to the core Eldar rules (changing the Shuriken catapult, race specific rules etc) which would force everything else to change around them.
Basically every unit in the Eldar army has and needs a role which requires someone to go through unit by unit working out what each needs to be able to do and how to do it.

Tri wrote:Falcon

- decrease points by 10 points
- decrease scatter laser by 5 points
- decrease bright lance by 10 points
- decrease star cannon by 5 points
- decrease holo fields by 5 points
- decrease vectored engines by 5 points

Also make this a fast attack choice even with these reductions there's heavy choices which are much better value.

Really?
I fear a new nobrainer list coming with falcons for fast, prisms for heavy and serpents for the minimum troops. I don't like that.
But shifting one unit from the heavy to the fast section, maybe war walkers?
Or making the falcon somewhat lighter so it would fit better in the fast section.

Greets
Schepp himself

Just make a Falcon a Dedicated Transport option in addition to being a heavy choice. The only reason to take one as a heavy is for a small unit that doesn't have a dedicated transport option built in.


Give Heavy Weapons Platforms some form of sighting protection like forcing night fight checks to target them.
They will still die at short ranges easily but not be 100-150 point "death-wish" choices for the eldar. (Maybe this is what conceal could turn into for warlocks...)

Powerguy wrote:As far as psychic powers go, Eldar should be as powerful if not more so than Marines and at the very least I would expect a couple more powers added. Perhaps 2 versions of Eldritch Storm? ala focused and unfocused shot. Maybe some sort of movement based power, Farseers could also get more powerful versions of warlock powers (pick a unit to be able to auto pass/fail Ld, re-rolls to hit in combat, +2 to cover saves etc).

On the whole I think the points adjustments for the weapons are good (they should really be the same across the board which would save you writing it everywhere). The starcannon should really either get the points breaks or return to its old profile but not both, otherwise we just change from scatter lasers to starcannons again. Tbh I think the shuriken cannon should gain pinning to give some advantage over the scatter laser which has a very similar role.

- True points, maybe shifting the shuriken cannon to a more autocannony direction. Don't know

Powerguy wrote:
Retinue for the Autarch doesn't really make sense, probably better to just make him boost the skills of any unit he is with (maybe only guardians though). Warlocks should be Ld9, they are supposed to be battle leaders and are no better than any of the Guardians they are leading. I would also like to see another HQ choice added, something with 2W and fairly cheap (Guardian or Warlock Leader?) which would be helpful for smaller games and add some variety. Avatar is fine as is, melta shot is worth keeping and fluffy.

- Good idea.

Powerguy wrote:
I would also like to see another transport, something similar to the old Harliequin transport, based off a Vyper chassis and could transport 6 (can't remember what it was called). This could fill the cheap transport slot and keep the Wave Serpents as a heavier, more expensive transport (they still need a points break).

- Interesting, putting the land speeder storm to shame

Powerguy wrote:
So yeah on the whole I like it but its mostly just making minor changes to everything rather than the more drastic changes needed for some of the units which are currently useless or not worth taking, the changes often don't address the underlying flaws in the unit. Wraithguard for example, giving them 2W is all very well but it still doesn't change the fact that they have 12" guns and average at best in assaults (and too expensive to use as a suicide squad). Spiders and Hawks still have no real role, Falcons are horribly outclassed by Prisms and Vypers still drop like flies at the slightest sneeze.

- Warp spider and swooping hawks are somewhat filling the same role. Fast anti-inf killer.
- Wraithguard should be just that. Guards. And no eldar unit should be used as suicide squads imo.
- Vypers shouldn't be harder than speeders. They should scoop around and taking pot shots to vehicles.
- Falcons, like land raiders , have to use their transport and their armament to make their points back. Question is, how do you accomplish that?

Powerguy wrote:
This of course assumes that there aren't going to be any major changes to the core Eldar rules (changing the Shuriken catapult, race specific rules etc) which would force everything else to change around them.
Basically every unit in the Eldar army has and needs a role which requires someone to go through unit by unit working out what each needs to be able to do and how to do it.

+1

Greets
Schepp himself

Schepp himself wrote:

Tri wrote:Falcon

- decrease points by 10 points
- decrease scatter laser by 5 points
- decrease bright lance by 10 points
- decrease star cannon by 5 points
- decrease holo fields by 5 points
- decrease vectored engines by 5 points

Also make this a fast attack choice even with these reductions there's heavy choices which are much better value.

Really?
I fear a new nobrainer list coming with falcons for fast, prisms for heavy and serpents for the minimum troops. I don't like that.
But shifting one unit from the heavy to the fast section, maybe war walkers?
Or making the falcon somewhat lighter so it would fit better in the fast section.

Greets
Schepp himself

Well if your going down that route what that ... that could be as few as 13 models .... stunning the 6 tanks and then shoot every thing else at troop .... no i can't see that being a winning list. As I've said before the falcon can be good its just not worth a heavy slot.
Moving it to fast gives people the option of taking them again. Sure some newbies will look at the army and go wow i can take 6 hover tanks, but when they try it they'll quickly realise that they've hardly any thing to play with.

I'd make Eldar generally better at using psychic powers. After all, they are the psychic race, bested only by Tzeentchian daemons. These are Space Elves who've been around since humans were monkeys, and they can't best Gateway of Infinity?

All of these changes are absurd. Eldar players truly are the whiniest of the bunch.

The only thing I can agree with is decreasing the cost of waveserpents a little.

dumbuket wrote:All of these changes are absurd. Eldar players truly are the whiniest of the bunch.

The only thing I can agree with is decreasing the cost of waveserpents a little.

Where was the whine exactly?
Making Vypers cheaper is whining? Because they are so gamebreaking at the moment? True, I saw the 9 Vypers of doom dominating this year 'ard boys. Damn!

Cheese Elemental wrote:I'd make Eldar generally better at using psychic powers. After all, they are the psychic race, bested only by Tzeentchian daemons. These are Space Elves who've been around since humans were monkeys, and they can't best Gateway of Infinity?

True, but how? The passive powers are already great imo, some offensive punch and another buffing spell maybe?

Stripping away all saves from a target, similar to doom? Just brainstorming here.

Tri wrote:...a bunch of stuff

Mhh...true, the heavy slot is contested pretty tightly at the moment. Would you suggest a simple switch or more changes to the statline and options of the falcon, Tri?

Greets
Schepp himself

EDIT: posted your suggestion in the thread and tweaked some points.

Personally i think a simple switch to fast attack is best.

If you add to the tank your going to have to increase the price. The biggest nerf that falcons got was that deflective weapons became Strength 4. If they were still Strength 6 I think the falcon might still have a place as a in heavy support.

Hm, a few things:

- Shining Spears squadsize up to 10
- Autarch maybe able to take exarch weaponry? Or exarch powers. Anyway, he needs some more customization.

- Return Crystal Targetting Matrix to some vehicles (vypers)? (if you don't know what it did, it used to allow eldar vehicles to move-shoot-move)

Strongly disagree about changing the Veil rules, the "you can't target us - nyah-nyah-nyah" is much cooler :] What's your reasoning behind this?

number9dream wrote:Hm, a few things:

- Shining Spears squadsize up to 10
- Autarch maybe able to take exarch weaponry? Or exarch powers. Anyway, he needs some more customization.

- Return Crystal Targetting Matrix to some vehicles (vypers)? (if you don't know what it did, it used to allow eldar vehicles to move-shoot-move)

Strongly disagree about changing the Veil rules, the "you can't target us - nyah-nyah-nyah" is much cooler :] What's your reasoning behind this?

Hehe, whileI agree that is has a classic clown feel to it, I generally don't like when special rules make you circumvent a load of basic rules. Same with special rules that negate speical rules (best example: Black templar raider that can ignore lances, Energy field that ignores melta etc.). A high cover save would make things running more smoothly imo.

Crystal targeting matrix i remember. I also remember the crying that occur and I believe that crying was routed in the fact that it broke a basic rule of the game.

Agree on the Autarch.

Shining spears is ok, i guess. If the unit is generally balanced, it doesn't get cheesy if you put all you eggs in one basket (unlike jetlock-council and nob bikers)

Greets
Schepp himself

I dunno, Eldar are already pretty powerful. Alot of this stuff would make them incredibly broken. I mean where are any of the downsides? Some points go up but not alot. The Avitar is already amazing for 155 points. His only downside is that he is slow. If anything he should be more costly or worse IMO. The Farseer getting more powerful and cheaper in cost? Again, the seer is pretty amazing. A kitted out one on foot runs around 150 points but the impact on the game if used correctly far exceeds that.

Banshees and Scorpions getting more attacks for their cost is too much. They would have 3 attacks base 4 on a charge. If anything there just needs to be a way to take them as troops if you take an Autrarch of a certain type. When you look at the Crack shot for the whole squad it just seems ungodly. Ignore cover and re roll wounds for all meltas in there? You might as well just wipe off anything they shoot at now. 20 points for a 10 man squad is only 2 a model. For a 5 its 4. Not alot of points in the grand scheme of things.

The Wraithguard maybe. I'd say 2 wounds would be legit. Or the dropping 5 points. Not both though. The 3+ cover on the harlies I believe would be more fair. The strength 4 for the leader...ok I guess. The auto fall back... I dunno about.

I'd be ok with the Wave Serpent costing less if it lost the energy shield on the side armor. As it stands I feel it is about appropriately costed for how damn hard it is to kill and the speed of the thing. The weapons costing less I'd be cool with.

The DA's stuff is ok. Really they aren't a CC squad so it's kinda a moot point. If anything these guys should go down in cost by a point or 2. The Rangers seem fair. The Guardians as well. As for the Hawks I dunno. I think assault 10 is a bit much. The gernade pack is pretty cool too. Viper changes fine it needs help.

The Reapers shouldn't get the Crack for the whole squad. Again, just shovel squads of 3+ save and up guys off the table for little extra cost. I dunno about the WL getting a 4+ inv. He has T8. Maybe 5+. Falcon changes fine.

Overall, I don't see much of a problem with the Eldar codex aside from the troop choices. The rest of the codex is pretty strong save a few units that could use some point tweaking (I think the Falcon, Viper, Hawks come to mind). The Autrarch should be a more focused choice but allow you to take a corresponding unit then as troops. The DA's need to go down in points a bit. Other than that I don't think Eldar need these changes. Alot of the stuff you posted would make them just overpowered and broken.

I think all their stats should be 10, and all the models only cost one point.

Schepp himself wrote:

number9dream wrote:Hm, a few things:

- Shining Spears squadsize up to 10
- Autarch maybe able to take exarch weaponry? Or exarch powers. Anyway, he needs some more customization.

- Return Crystal Targetting Matrix to some vehicles (vypers)? (if you don't know what it did, it used to allow eldar vehicles to move-shoot-move)

Strongly disagree about changing the Veil rules, the "you can't target us - nyah-nyah-nyah" is much cooler :] What's your reasoning behind this?

Hehe, whileI agree that is has a classic clown feel to it, I generally don't like when special rules make you circumvent a load of basic rules. Same with special rules that negate speical rules (best example: Black templar raider that can ignore lances, Energy field that ignores melta etc.). A high cover save would make things running more smoothly imo.

Crystal targeting matrix i remember. I also remember the crying that occur and I believe that crying was routed in the fact that it broke a basic rule of the game.

Agree on the Autarch.

Shining spears is ok, i guess. If the unit is generally balanced, it doesn't get cheesy if you put all you eggs in one basket (unlike jetlock-council and nob bikers)

Greets
Schepp himself

Hm, I think it's sad if everything has to be streamlined :(

It's really only an improved version of night fighting, I don't think it *should* be a problem. Likewise, all eldar jetbikes can move 6" in the assault phase even if they don't assault - doesn't this break a basic rule in the same way as the crystal targetting matrix does?

Schepp himself wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
So yeah on the whole I like it but its mostly just making minor changes to everything rather than the more drastic changes needed for some of the units which are currently useless or not worth taking, the changes often don't address the underlying flaws in the unit. Wraithguard for example, giving them 2W is all very well but it still doesn't change the fact that they have 12" guns and average at best in assaults (and too expensive to use as a suicide squad). Spiders and Hawks still have no real role, Falcons are horribly outclassed by Prisms and Vypers still drop like flies at the slightest sneeze.

- Warp spider and swooping hawks are somewhat filling the same role. Fast anti-inf killer.
- Wraithguard should be just that. Guards. And no eldar unit should be used as suicide squads imo.
- Vypers shouldn't be harder than speeders. They should scoop around and taking pot shots to vehicles.
- Falcons, like land raiders , have to use their transport and their armament to make their points back. Question is, how do you accomplish that?

Schepp himself

Yes Spiders and Hawks are fast anti-inf units, the problem is that almost any other unit in the codex can do a decent job with anti-inf (hell even a Guardian Defender squad can do that job + are a hell of a lot cheaper and scoring) so there is no real reason to take them. Hawks used to be grenade specialists and late game objective grabbers but got nerfed by 5th, tbh I think they just need some improvements in the grenade specialist area and a decent gun to become a good (and relatively cheap) harassment unit against both inf and armour. Spiders are a bit trickier as I don't think they have ever had a clearly defined role that they were actually any good at. Changing their guns to flamer templates would be a good start, maybe a weak (S2-3) low AP (3-4) gun which causes pinning (I can't see the point in another S4 AP5 flame template, there are already heaps of units which have this, as stated I don't think another short ranged light infantry killer is needed in the Eldar list) and some more powers/rules based around teleportation/deep strike.

Ok so if Wraithguard are guards, what are they guarding . I'm still in favour of the option to give them some sort of decent CC loadout (allow mixed squad loadout maybe), or even just give them a second CC weapon and make the Wraithcannon 1 handed to give them a decent number of attacks at high strength (and high WS/I with Enhance). Still not sure if that would be enough for me to take them over Fire Dragons unless someone stole all my Wave Serpents though. I agree that no Eldar unit should be used as a suicide squad but thats just the way that much of the army has be played, simply due to the lack of survivabilty. Some sort of JSJ type mechanic would need to be added to have some chance of units surviving more often but this would require a total rethink of the entire army and points costs. The specialisation of Eldar means I can happily bust a Land Raider with 5 Fire Dragons or some Terminator with Banshees but I know that most of the time the squad will die the next turn when a combat squad rapid fires them to death but generally you can accept that you have won out point for point. Based on their current setup Wraithguard are meant to be heavy infantry and tank killers but Fire Dragons do the same role for much much cheaper and can fit more guys into a transport. They cost as much (more due to new codex??) as terminators and aren't anywhere near as good atm.

Agree Vypers shouldn't be harder than Land Speeders then they also should cost twice as much either. Beside the obvious points adjustment, I would like to see the option for upgrading to a twin linked gun, atm they are far outclassed even within the codex by War Walkers (who also have Scout/Outflank). I expect Deep Strike to be added for them in any case.

Falcons essentially fill the same role as vanilla Land Raiders do, just swapping armour for speed. They either move forward at speed, drop a squad and then pull back to fire off its main guns, or they sit in the back field firing off its main guns and either become a scoring unit or a counterattack force depending on the unit inside. Making all the turrent mounted weapons count as 1 (i.e be able to fire both of them on the move) would be a good start but I'm not sure if that would be enough to make them a viable choice over the Prism.

Before I get too carried away I should mention that I expect quite a few things to be brought into line with the current design ethos, making more upgrades use USR rather than similar race/unit specific rules. For example Conceal will likely change to Stealth/+1 or 2 to cover saves, Embolden to Stubborn, Enhance to Furious Charge etc.
A few other ideas I've seen floating round which haven't been mentioned; adding a Guardian Sergeant type upgrade for Guardian squads which would give them access to certain upgrades like Energy Shields (ala Dawn of War) but still allow the addition of a Warlock for other upgrades. Adding a Bonesinger to the list is pretty likely tbh, add FNP to Wraithguard and a power to restore 1-2 wounds to a Wraithlord. Another unit everyone has totally forgotten are the Heavy Support Weapons platforms, which need some major changes to increase survivabilty and damage output (longer range D cannon, increased strength/AP for the Shadow Weaver and make the Vibrocannon actually do something). All the Phoenix Lords need an Inv save (5++ probably). Going on current trends, quite a few special characters should return + they really should find a replacement for Eldrad (fluffwise he's 99% dead). Some return to the Craftworld specialisations would be nice, perhaps some unique units, 1 per craftworld (and obviously only able to pick 1 of these units per army) which would add some craftworld fluff back in without the return to that amazingly frustrating Disruption table and Black Guardian spam. Depending on how radical the designers get we could see some expansion/more units/rules for Harlies and Exodites which would be pretty cool.

To all the people thinking that these kind of changes will make Eldar broken they need to look at the units which people are proposing actual changes to (rather than just minor points adjustments) and then count the number of times you have seen these units in 5th a) on the table and b) doing something useful/effective. Off the top of my head the only majorly overpowered unit in the Eldar codex in the Jetlock Council (as its doesn't have the common eldar disadvantage of being squishy while still being pretty good at hitting things) which will likely either get totally removed or get a major points hike. I want to be able to have more than just a couple of effective army builds, particularly ones which I can actually use Guardians in and not have to spam Wave Serpents.

I completely agree about the DA exarch...should be able to choose what combination of things...

Updated some stuff.

Keep the ideas coming please!

Greets
Schepp himself

The waveserpent needs some help.

For years the arguement has been that the serpent doesnt cost too much because it is a fast transport, and its the best transport in the game. A basic serpent with a shuriken cannon and spirit stones (extra armor) runs 110 points.

Now let us look at the new IG vendetta (the valk is cheaper but has a weapons load that doesnt compare closely with anything the serpent can take). For 130 points we get a fast transport with 3 tl lascannons and extra armor. But it also can deepstrike, can make a scout move before the game begins, and can grav chute deploy its infantry even when it moves at 24". Oh, and for another 10 points it can add 2 heavy bolters as well.

The serpent has its energy field, and can tank shock. Its closest weapon upgrade ( a single tl bright lance) puts it at 145 points.


The eldar, the army famous for its speed, have a transport that isnt as fast as the IG. (deep strike, scout move and deploy while moving fast)


The serpent is radically weaker than the vendetta while actually costing more points for its most similar weapons load. And I dont know about you, but I would vastly prefer 3 lascannons over one bright lance.



The point cost on the serpent should be greatly reduced or else it should gain some major new abilities. Let it deepstrike, give it scout, perhaps let it become and assault transport like the land raider. (it doesnt have an assault ramp but its so much faster than other vehicles that the pilot can easily deposit the troops exactly where they need to be in ready order to launch an assault)


There has never been a transport close to the serpent before so cost arguements could be ignored .... that is no longer the case since the launch of the vendetta/ valk.

As an eldar player I would gladly take vendettas instead of wave serpents now. The scout move alone puts the vendetta miles ahead of the serpent.


Sliggoth

I love the energy field. I don't care what anyone says, they are equal. Because on the move (which is all that counts for a transport) Serpents are stronger. 3 TL lascannons mean nothing if you can only fire 1.

1 Lascannon on the move = 1 EML or bright lance on the move
Energy fields > No Energy Fields
Small Flying Base > Freaking Enormous Flying Base
Vectored/Star Engines > Grav Chute

If you consider the Serpent in the context of the eldar army, I think that you have to be careful how to tone down its pointcost. The valkyrie cannot bring dedicated assault troops in the middle of the enemy lines.

So a mild point drop would pretty much solve the problem imo. And consider that with scorpions, the wave serpent can in fact outflank.

Greets
Schepp himself

Added some stuff, especially the heavy weapon platform. Highlighted all the recent changes in red as ever. Implemented some ideas by you.
Tell me what you think!

Greets
Schepp himself

Scout move >>> outflanking tho. Before the first turn of the game the vendetta can mobe 24", then move either another 12" and unload its troops or another 24" and drop its troops. There is literally no where on the table that is out of range of its melt gun armed troops on the first turn of the game (I think IG can only get 4 meltas in one unit, still not bad).

With the wave serpent we can move them 12" on the first turn and unload troops ... so very impressive for an army that has long been touted as one of the fastest in the game. Being able to outflank some scorps a couple turns later just doesnt equalize things.

Also, with the 24" scout move the vendetta is very likely to be close to where it wants to unload its troops, it may very well not have to move any farther at all ... so yes they can unload their meltas to pop one heavy tank and use its 3 TL las cannons to take out another vehicle as well. Or with heavy bolter add ons it can demolish an infantry unit instead.

Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Scout move >>> outflanking tho. Before the first turn of the game the vendetta can mobe 24", then move either another 12" and unload its troops or another 24" and drop its troops. There is literally no where on the table that is out of range of its melt gun armed troops on the first turn of the game (I think IG can only get 4 meltas in one unit, still not bad).

With the wave serpent we can move them 12" on the first turn and unload troops ... so very impressive for an army that has long been touted as one of the fastest in the game. Being able to outflank some scorps a couple turns later just doesnt equalize things.

Also, with the 24" scout move the vendetta is very likely to be close to where it wants to unload its troops, it may very well not have to move any farther at all ... so yes they can unload their meltas to pop one heavy tank and use its 3 TL las cannons to take out another vehicle as well. Or with heavy bolter add ons it can demolish an infantry unit instead.

Sliggoth

Point taken, but the solution would be to tone down the vendetta and not buffing the serpent too much. Codex creep anyone? And there won't be a new model for the serpent, so Gw has no reason to make it a nobrainer choice.

Greets
Schepp himself

i was playing with my eldar against an ork army andafter my Shining spears got massacared by an ork mob, i decided they should have +1 attack each

GW you better read this thread!!

There are a few bits n pieces which need work in the codex but I think that, generally, it's still pretty good.

I'm sorry but this just looks like a /pooreldar thread. If you put even half of those suggestions in, the list would be waaaaay too powerful. At the momemnt, it is both competitive and versatile even without the borked Jet councils etc.

Eldar, with the exception of Spears and a few other things, are kind of fine as they are.