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Guys... you're so focussed on arguing about stuff you missed information above.

 Therion wrote:

The old model was *overpriced*? Most people would have argued the exact opposite, that it was underpriced. It was certainly a common high end tournament staple for being an overpriced unit...

Yeah it was overpriced. Not everyone used them by any means. They weren't nearly as points effective as say Riptides.

Riptides rely a lot on Markerlights for maximum effectiveness, requiring an additional unit for support, inflating the cost of the total package. Likewise, the Riptide operates in a different capacity to the Wraithknight. Finally, even if we assume that the WK isn't as points effective as the Riptide, that doesn't mean the WK can't still be undercosted, it just means the Riptide is even moreso.

They were included in armies because nothing else in the codex did the job they did, which was being sort of resilient guys that move 12"+ every turn and threaten close combat while taking pot shots at stuff. They countered a lot of units that would otherwise roll through the Eldar army.

That doesn't mean they still can't be overpriced -- It just means they are your only source of doing something. And they weren't that much overpriced. Like I said, about 20 points.

And again, I think most people would disagree with this statement. From my experiences, I think you're the first person to have ever made this assertion, at least that I've seen.

And you don't need to counter my argument by linking every crap unit in the game, because they're probably overpriced too.

The bigger point was that lots of other units weren't seen as grossly overpriced before until other things got megabuffed. Sure, Malcadors were always kinda crappy, but nobody thought Baneblades were spectacularly overpried, most people saw them largely as reasonably balanced.

I edited it before you posted that I concede that FNP can cost even 50 points on this model. Stomps on the other hand aren't all purpose enough to warrant too high points increase. You can't charge a premium for every single thing that sometimes gets used. You can charge a lot on things that always get applied, like FNP.

Stomp gets to be used in any CC not involving another GC/Superheavy. That's still pretty huge.

T8 W6 for 240 points is 40 points per wound without an invulnerable save. Despite the toughness that's not exactly cheap, especially as you consider the resilience is the forté and firepower certainly isn't. 1 strength 10 shot per 120 points is horribly expensive to counter balance it. My argument is that this is overpriced.

Except it's didn't just have two S10 shots, it effectively got to run around with two Railguns (for about the same price as two Railheads Railhead, albeit not as much range but not super short ranged either), while being highly mobile and packing four WS4 S10 I5 melee attacks on top of the firepower.

T8 W6 FNP for 295 points is 50 points per wound. Now the wound is more protected but it's still a 50 point wound. That's not cheap, when once again the resilience is the major strength here, because the model gets one S D shot per almost 150 points, which is again horribly expensive. It's a walking brick wall that doesn't shoot that hard.

It's got drastically better firepower now, Strength D is far more capable than S:10, and now gets dramatically increased resiliency and increased CC capability, and is about the cheapest GC I can possibly think of, while certainly not anything near the least capable.

For 295pts, I'm certainly having trouble thinking of units from most armies that could match its mobility, resiliency, firepower, and CC capability, or even just three of those four, from most armies, especially without supporting units. 295pts of Wraithknight is certainly going to put 300pts of any sort of Predator/Leman Russ/Hammerhead/etc MBT combo to shame.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Therion wrote:

They were included in armies because nothing else in the codex did the job they did, which was being sort of resilient guys that move 12"+ every turn and threaten close combat while taking pot shots at stuff. They countered a lot of units that would otherwise roll through the Eldar army.

That doesn't mean they still can't be overpriced -- It just means they are your only source of doing something. And they weren't that much overpriced. Like I said, about 20 points.

And again, I think most people would disagree with this statement. From my experiences, I think you're the first person to have ever made this assertion, at least that I've seen.

I can at least agree with him on this. From personal experience my wraithknights, I ran two, don't usually last through a game. More often then not both are dead by turn 4 or 5. I can't even count on both hands the times a wraithknight has been taken out by a single unit, while it didn't happen often it was common, if that makes sense. Now I know this was only my personal experience and cannot justify it for a more worldwide view, but I figure best to throw my two cents in.

I must say this again- I cannot believe the amount this release has brought this many users of Dakka into agreement about something. Seeing such unity is a nice flower that has arisen from this turd of a codex.

I said bias or naive one or other hey maybe both who am I to judge but the point is a 400 pt WK is as good or better than a 375p IK and people field them and they are good units.

Absolutely nothing wrong at all with a Destroyer enabled, fast GC that is T8 with 6 wounds. Nothing at all and it compares favourably to every other 40k unit and far better than 99% of them.

Thank god you don't design games...or maybe you do, did you write this codex!

Vaktathi wrote:
For 295pts, I'm certainly having trouble thinking of units from most armies that could match its mobility, resiliency, firepower, and CC capability, or even just three of those four, from most armies, especially without supporting units. 295pts of Wraithknight is certainly going to put 300pts of any sort of Predator/Leman Russ/Hammerhead/etc MBT combo to shame.

Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.

Similarly, remember there's the issue of internal balance. Unless we're saying everything in the new Eldar codex is underpriced, and would be willing to nerf everything, then the Wraithknight needs to be in line for it to be usable. Otherwise it would get ignored and all the other choices would get spammed, resulting in boring armies. Now if you did answer yes to the 'nerf everything' then you'll probably to go back in time and nerf previous codices too and nerf every powerful army in the game. But since we can all agree that's not happening we have to be realistic and call it as it is. The Wraithknight doesn't jump out as dramatically underpriced in the new Codex: Eldar. It's just one of the seemingly competitive choices among many others, and in line in strength with the previous Codex: Necrons.

Finally, we're still ignoring the LoW issue. If it's a LoW it puts a cap of one on the unit for most games, which could theoretically even warrant a points reduction if GW feels it's a thematic unit every army should have one of. I guess you can take multiple if you take multiples of the Wraith formation, but on the other hand many tournaments have the army wide cap of 'one LoW that is superheavy or gargantuan' which would put a stop to that.

 Therion wrote:

Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.

The Daemonkin codex is pretty recent and the WK dumps all over the Bloodthirsters, to say nothing of the Lord of Skulls which costs 3 times as much.
Even Necrons, their C'tan are laughable compared to the Wraithknight. 250 points for a MC with random powers?

Chad Warden wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.

The Daemonkin codex is pretty recent and the WK dumps all over the Bloodthirsters, to say nothing of the Lord of Skulls which costs 3 times as much.
Even Necrons, their C'tan are laughable compared to the Wraithknight. 250 points for a MC with random powers?

What does the Avatar do in the new Eldar codex, and how much does it cost? That could be a good point of comparison with the C'tan.

 Therion wrote:

Get back to modern times though.

Not all of those are "unmodern". Those are all books released in the last couple of years, hell the IG book isn't even a year old yet. We can compare it to the Stompa in the Ork codex which is only a few months old as well, and the points invested in a WK are certainly far more effectively used than the Stompa.

How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.

Different roles for many of these units, however, that doesn't mean they're all particularly well balanced. Just because some of these are also overpowered isn't a good reason the WK needs to be

Similarly, remember there's the issue of internal balance. Unless we're saying everything in the new Eldar codex is underpriced

For which there is an increasingly good argument for a very large chunk of it.

and would be willing to nerf everything, then the Wraithknight needs to be in line for it to be usable. Otherwise it would get ignored and all the other choices would get spammed, resulting in boring armies.

Which is still a pretty crap reason for a unit to be overpowered.

Now if you did answer yes to the 'nerf everything' then you'll probably to go back in time and nerf previous codices too and nerf every powerful army in the game.

To be honest, most just had a couple broken units. Only this and the Necron codex are as widely spread in their sillyness.

Finally, we're still ignoring the LoW issue. If it's a LoW it puts a cap of one on the unit for most games, which could theoretically even warrant a points reduction if GW feels it's a thematic unit every army should have one of. I guess you can take multiple if you take multiples of the Wraith formation, but on the other hand many tournaments have the army wide cap of 'one LoW that is superheavy or gargantuan' which would put a stop to that.

If you look at the detachment/formation list, it's nowhere near as restricted as LoW's in other armies.

Vaktathi wrote:Different roles for many of these units, however, that doesn't mean they're all particularly well balanced. Just because some of these are also overpowered isn't a good reason the WK needs to be

See, this is where we disagree. The community has proven to be unable to balance the game by retroactively repointing everything or restricting the largest offenders by any meaningful disagree, because the community can't agree on pretty much anything. The only way forward is to hope GW keeps whatever trend that it decides is appropriate, and balance or even an illusion of balance happens naturally. That's why I'm a firm supporter of continuous power creep.

If you look at the detachment/formation list, it's nowhere near as restricted as LoW's in other armies.

I haven't looked, but I don't think that makes any difference if every tournament is (as they have been) restricts superheavy/gargantuan LoWs to one. The only reason Knights are allowed in multiples is because they aren't Lords of War.

 Accolade wrote:
I must say this again- I cannot believe the amount this release has brought this many users of Dakka into agreement about something. Seeing such unity is a nice flower that has arisen from this turd of a codex.

In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only one point of consensus:

7th edition Eldar are broken.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I must say this again- I cannot believe the amount this release has brought this many users of Dakka into agreement about something. Seeing such unity is a nice flower that has arisen from this turd of a codex.

In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only one point of consensus:

7th edition Eldar are broken.

Well it's good for the Necron players then, or the Daemon players who have been streamrolling GTs a couple years in a row now, or everyone who likes 4 Hive Tyrants even to the extent of allying them to their Tau and whatever armies. The angry Eye of the Community is now fixed on Eldar, and the Eye demands nerfs!

Have support battery D-cannons changed apart from Str D

 TheNewBlood wrote:


In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only one point of consensus:

7th edition Eldar are broken.

Unity through community!

 Therion wrote:
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?

It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?

It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.

How much does the Wraithknight with the S D melee weapon, 4+ invulnerable save, scatter laser and suncannon cost in the new book? I've only seen the ranged variant being mentioned, so apologies if it was posted earlier.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?

It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.

The Wraithknight is super busted. Vehicles will always be disadvantaged to Gargantuans as they former can suffer catastrophic failures. So if WKs hit the table, it'll be about D-escalation.

Thank you Greyknight12 that is exactly my point. No way does the Wraithknight even on old stats balance, how on earth did it get a buff and why on earth is someone defending it

 Therion wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?

It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.

How much does the Wraithknight with the S D melee weapon, 4+ invulnerable save, scatter laser and suncannon cost in the new book? I've only seen the ranged variant being mentioned, so apologies if it was posted earlier.

All variants cost the same, so it'd be 295 + SL cost (20ish points I think).

We literally never play LoW around my area does it still confer disadvantages on a player that takes it or does it mean nothing except your limited to one per CAD?

 Therion wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.

The Daemonkin codex is pretty recent and the WK dumps all over the Bloodthirsters, to say nothing of the Lord of Skulls which costs 3 times as much.
Even Necrons, their C'tan are laughable compared to the Wraithknight. 250 points for a MC with random powers?

What does the Avatar do in the new Eldar codex, and how much does it cost? That could be a good point of comparison with the C'tan.

Apparently its the same but has no exarch powers, is a low and the weapon is +2S.

Can we please get back on topic? The bitching/moaning/complaining does not belong here. It is getting pretty out of hand, and is deminishing the quality of this thread. If you want to talk about that kind of stuff could you please create a separate thread? Very hard to find rumors/leaks through all the bs.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?

It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.

How much does the Wraithknight with the S D melee weapon, 4+ invulnerable save, scatter laser and suncannon cost in the new book? I've only seen the ranged variant being mentioned, so apologies if it was posted earlier.

All variants cost the same, so it'd be 295 + SL cost (20ish points I think).

Well, the melee one certainly sounds stronger than the one with wraithcannons if you still get the invulnerable save. It will blow up deathstars really nicely with the d-sword and stomps. Might even change the meta.

Spoletta wrote:
Those aspect warriors are by no means cheese. They are cool, fun and properly costed.

Well, they're much closer to properly costed, anyways. Dire Avengers, for example, are still flat out better for their points than space marines. It's just much more reasonable than handing out D-weapons like candy.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Can we please get back on topic? The bitching/moaning/complaining does not belong here. It is getting pretty out of hand, and is deminishing the quality of this thread. If you want to talk about that kind of stuff could you please create a separate thread? Very hard to find rumors/leaks through all the bs.

EXALTED!! Perfectly said sir

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Can we please get back on topic? The bitching/moaning/complaining does not belong here. It is getting pretty out of hand, and is deminishing the quality of this thread. If you want to talk about that kind of stuff could you please create a separate thread? Very hard to find rumors/leaks through all the bs.

This this and this again. As has been constantly pointed out there is a thread in discussion forums to rage out. Several of us have repeatedly asked you guys to take it there....freaking please

I have word on the next Eldar supplement, Eldar: Cheese Factory. Every unit has relentless and scatter AND D weapons, and are all super gargantuans with for 70 points each. The HQ is Cheese Factory Manager, troops are Cheese Factory bikers, and the LoW is the Cheese Factory Security worker (who has 16 wounds)

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Can we please get back on topic? The bitching/moaning/complaining does not belong here. It is getting pretty out of hand, and is deminishing the quality of this thread. If you want to talk about that kind of stuff could you please create a separate thread? Very hard to find rumors/leaks through all the bs.

Bravo!

Can we move the hate to a different thread?

So Aspect Warriors get fixed abilities depening if there is an exarch or not. What a wash, true that there were some worthless abilities around but now we'll have cookie cutter aspect warriors all over the place.
I guess that the designers couldn't create a random table for exarch abilities on time.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
So Aspect Warriors get fixed abilities depening if there is an exarch or not. What a wash, true that there were some worthless abilities around but now we'll have cookie cutter aspect warriors all over the place.
I guess that the designers couldn't create a random table for exarch abilities on time.

M.

On a roll of 1, your opponent gains Bladestorm on one of their troops weapons.