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 Therion wrote:
I may need to add that if the Wraithknight is 295 point it seems pretty good value for what it can (apparently) do.

That said, I think the thing needed to be buffed. Sure people were using it in its current form already, but it was mostly because the Eldar army really needed such a thing to counter things it can't otherwise fight, but the fact that nobody allied Wraithknights into other armies spoke volumes about how points effective it was. Riptides on the other hand are often allied into forces.

So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost ith the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes. If it's getting additional wounds or other stat increases too then it might be undercosted.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Torquar wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Can anyone find a bad unit in the codex?

Guardians? T3 5+ save with a gun that only has "You're getting charged next round" range. They really suck.

I even bet they still dont get another platform if you bump em up to 20 man.

They aren't you getting charged next turn because you just run them backwards to max range. You take a horde a bunch and use guide on them to bladestorm to death in both shooting and overwatch. Guardians are a solid troop choice.

Man the nerdrage is just comincal in this thread. The codex isn't even out yet and all the "leaks" are about as credible as anything else in the internet. One big laugh until I have the book in my hands...

I suspect that most of the 40k hobbyists out ther aren't tournament players - most players are playing friendly games either in their homes or at their FLGS. I've never once played a game where the codex of either player totally dictacted the outcome of the game, and I've been playing for a long time. If you you and your mates can't work out rules that both of you enjoy than this game simply isn't for you. Go play some video game that will just ding you for a few microtransactions and call you a winner - you'll save a lot of time and money that way.

I have a Space Marine army that's almost never won a single game, a CSM force (with NO turkey) that wins nearly every time, and an Eldar force that has a pretty evenly split win/loss ratio.

Not one of my lists would hold up to a tournament, but I don't care. My priority is this little thing called ... fun.

When DE got their codex at the end of 5th Ed it was the most absurdly "OP" book in the game at the time. I didn't stop playing with him - we just worked gak out. Like adults. I started toying around with my lists to be more entertaining. "wouldn't it by funny if..." became the starting point for most of armies.

I don't know if most players are just REALLY gakky at the game and can "only" win if they have some monsterously OP gimmick in their army to rely on or exploit - or if this community really is just a bunch of WAAC bottom feeders whose only sense of self worth comes from victory in a miniature wargame.

My only advice is to learn to have some damn fun. Lose a few games and roll with it. The only reason you feel the game is ruined by every new codex is because you bought to heavily into the newest codex of your own army. You min-max your lists to take advantage of the falvor of the month unit and laugh your ass off when you win, but when the next flavor of the month comes out you QQ and blame GW for ruining your fun. If you could learn to make lists that are FUN you'd never have that problem.

Take some time off of QQing here and go adjust your lists. Stop trying to rely on the same dry old tactics that 'promised' a win 6 months ago and adapt for God's sake.

 En Excelsis wrote:
Man the nerdrage is just comincal in this thread. The codex isn't even out yet and all the "leaks" are about as credible as anything else in the internet. One big laugh until I have the book in my hands...

You should have saved all the time sitting on your high horse to go back and see that (a) someone has the codex and (b) everything that's been "rumored" (stupid thing to say since it came out of the White Dwarf) was proved correct.

But hey, enjoy spending your time insulting strangers on the internet, whatever floats your boat.

Seriously, how many more times will someone with a superiority complex come in half cocked with zero facts only to plant their foot firmly in their mouth in the first sentence.

Also had a chuckle that he thought DE were ever remotely OP.

Rule Number One here is Be Polite. No discussion about toy soldiers requires making personal insults.

I think people are missing the insanely powerful Hemlock Wraith Fighter.

185 Points comes with 2 D Strength Weapons AND gets to cast Psychic Scream.

Yeah that's balanced.

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are missing the insanely powerful Hemlock Wraith Fighter.

185 Points comes with 2 D Strength Weapons AND gets to cast Psychic Scream.

Yeah that's balanced.

With a 4+ cover save WITHOUT jinking, re rollable with jinking.

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are missing the insanely powerful Hemlock Wraith Fighter.

185 Points comes with 2 D Strength Weapons AND gets to cast Psychic Scream.

Yeah that's balanced.

Still dies to bolters though. Glass cannon

Edit: Forgot about the cover save mechanic. Damn...might actually see use.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are missing the insanely powerful Hemlock Wraith Fighter.

185 Points comes with 2 D Strength Weapons AND gets to cast Psychic Scream.

Yeah that's balanced.

Still dies to bolters though. Glass cannon

Edit: Forgot about the cover save mechanic. Damn...might actually see use.

Also you can invis it super easily if you want to shield it from aa and other flyers. It's dumb.

 En Excelsis wrote:
Man the nerdrage is just comincal in this thread. The codex isn't even out yet and all the "leaks" are about as credible as anything else in the internet. One big laugh until I have the book in my hands...

So, when you have the book in your hands and they all turn out to be correct, are we gonna get an eating crow thread?

There was a guy posting pictures of the codex and answering questions on Warseer if you're interested. It's all pretty "out" at this point.

Take some time off of QQing here and go adjust your lists. Stop trying to rely on the same dry old tactics that 'promised' a win 6 months ago and adapt for God's sake.

Ah, the old "L2P" response, classic fallacious exit.

 Las wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are missing the insanely powerful Hemlock Wraith Fighter.

185 Points comes with 2 D Strength Weapons AND gets to cast Psychic Scream.

Yeah that's balanced.

With a 4+ cover save WITHOUT jinking, re rollable with jinking.

Was the Hemlock part of that formation, thought it was just the Crimson Hunters?

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I may need to add that if the Wraithknight is 295 point it seems pretty good value for what it can (apparently) do.

That said, I think the thing needed to be buffed. Sure people were using it in its current form already, but it was mostly because the Eldar army really needed such a thing to counter things it can't otherwise fight, but the fact that nobody allied Wraithknights into other armies spoke volumes about how points effective it was. Riptides on the other hand are often allied into forces.

So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost 240 with the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes. If it's getting additional wounds or other stat increases too then it might be undercosted.

If 295 is balanced for the new Wraith knight , the morkanaught and Gorkanaught need a serious point reduction the morkanaught is 310...... and can get taken out by a single S8 AP2 shot.

Like I said I'm not sure how many wounds the new Wraithknight has, but if 295 points is the old Wraithknight + the 2 S10 distort guns became S D, and it got FNP and stomps and nothing else, then yes I don't think 295 points is terrible at all. Sure it could be 305 or 315 or whatever but it's not in the realm of outrageous by any means. The anti-tank difference between S10 distort and S D isn't that big, and it can't have the strength D sword and the strength D cannons simultaneously. Overall, I benchmark it against the ion accelerating Riptide.

I don't like new units to be overpriced or underpowered just because there are units in other codices that suck also. Your Ork examples certainly need to be buffed. We are in agreement. You wouldn't use them even if the Wraithknight and Riptide sucked, so what's the point of making the Wraithknight suck? Let's just make the Ork walkers better.

I'm just perfectly fine with every codex getting very powerful units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Decurion rules, new Eldar Formations, economical S D and all that stuff, as long as we keep going and give similar and thematically fitting stuff to every codex, not just a couple ones at random intervals.

Let's just hope that the Necrons and Eldar are now an imaginative trend, and the next main army will get a similar treatment. Then all is well in due time.

 Therion wrote:


Like I said I'm not sure how many wounds the new Wraithknight has, but if 295 points is the old Wraithknight + the 2 S10 distort guns became S D, and it got FNP and stomps and nothing else, then yes I don't think 295 points is terrible at all. Sure it could be 305 or 315 or whatever but it's not in the realm of outrageous by any means. I benchmark it against the ion accelerating Riptide.

Nothing in the game is so aggressively pointed. It gains Stomp, Feel No Pain, DStr CC or Ranged, relative immunity to Instant Death and Poison. Compare it to any other Gargantuan Creature. Nothing comes close to it's strength for the cost. In fact, is there a cheaper Gargantuan that even exists in the game?

 Therion wrote:

I'm just perfectly fine with every codex getting very powerful units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Decurion rules, new Eldar Formations, economical S D and all that stuff, as long as we keep going and give similar and thematically fitting stuff to every codex, not just a couple ones at random intervals.

Let's just hope that the Necrons and Eldar are now an imaginative trend, and the next main army will get a similar treatment. Then all is well in due time.

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I agree.

Given GW doesn't do proper "patching" going back to slight power-creep inflation is sadly the best thing that can happen after hyper-inflation. I'm not using those terms by accident either, I see power-creep like inflation, it's best when it's small and controlled. When it hyper-inflates or is constantly deflating and inflating at high rates is when things go bad imo.

People with older codices do get screwed, but they get screwed regardless.

The other alternative is of course, blow the whole thing up and start fresh.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Therion wrote:


Like I said I'm not sure how many wounds the new Wraithknight has, but if 295 points is the old Wraithknight + the 2 S10 distort guns became S D, and it got FNP and stomps and nothing else, then yes I don't think 295 points is terrible at all. Sure it could be 305 or 315 or whatever but it's not in the realm of outrageous by any means. I benchmark it against the ion accelerating Riptide.

Nothing in the game is so aggressively pointed. It gains Stomp, Feel No Pain, DStr CC or Ranged, relative immunity to Instant Death and Poison. Compare it to any other Gargantuan Creature. Nothing comes close to it's strength for the cost. In fact, is there a cheaper Gargantuan that even exists in the game?

Feel No Pain is worth 30 points. Maybe even 50 on a model like this. How much do you think the stomp attacks are worth? 30? Can't be 50. The poison attribute doesn't come in effect in most games, against Dark Eldar it's certainly very valuable, but overall about 20 points. It was already very immune to instant death. Now, strength D instead of S10 distort? Strength D on its own sounds great, but vs S10 AP2 distort? 20 points? 30? Look how the strength D is priced on other Eldar models -- It doesn't cost much now according to GW.

Overall you got about 110 points of upgrades on the old Wraithknight, but the price of the model went up only 55 points. I'd say the old model was about 20 points overpriced, some could even argue 30, but for argument's sake I'll go with 20. Now we got 35 points of free upgrades. Then I add the power creep inflation that's clearly present in the game if we look at pretty much any unit in the Necron codex and there's your missing 35 points.

Of course you can disagree with just about everything I said above, but that's the way I look at it. The Wraithknight clearly isn't the biggest offender in the new book. I think the smaller units gaining free very powerful upgrades are much bigger issues to complain about.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Therion wrote:


Like I said I'm not sure how many wounds the new Wraithknight has, but if 295 points is the old Wraithknight + the 2 S10 distort guns became S D, and it got FNP and stomps and nothing else, then yes I don't think 295 points is terrible at all. Sure it could be 305 or 315 or whatever but it's not in the realm of outrageous by any means. I benchmark it against the ion accelerating Riptide.

Nothing in the game is so aggressively pointed. It gains Stomp, Feel No Pain, DStr CC or Ranged, relative immunity to Instant Death and Poison. Compare it to any other Gargantuan Creature. Nothing comes close to it's strength for the cost. In fact, is there a cheaper Gargantuan that even exists in the game?

I don't think so.

LIkewise, if a 295pt Wraithknight is "fair", why am I paying 575pts for a classically equipped Baneblade, 300-400pts for Macharius tanks, and 250-320pts for Malcador variants?

For that matter, why bother with other Eldar superhevies like a Scorpion at 500pts?

Therion wrote:
Feel No Pain is worth 30 points. How much do you think the stomp attacks are worth? 30? Can't be 50

FNP on a T8 W6 GC is worth *WAY* more than 30pts. Stomp attacks can easily be worth 50pts.

. The poison attribute doesn't come in effect in most games, against Dark Eldar it's certainly valuable, overall about 20 points. It was already very immune to instant death. Now, strength D instead of S10 distort? Strength D on its own sounds great, but vs S10 AP2 distort? 20 points? 30? Look how the strength D is priced on other Eldar models -- It doesn't cost much now according to GW.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that's what it's actually worth. That's an entire order of magnitude different level of firepower.

Overall you got about 100 points of upgrades on the old Wraithknight, but the price of the model went up only 55 points. I'd say the old model was about 20 points overpriced, some could even argue 30, but for argument's say I'll go with 20. Now we got 35 points of free upgrades. Then I add the power creep inflation that's clearly present in the game if we look at pretty much any unit in the Necron codex and there's your missing 35 points.

The old model was *overpriced*? Most people would have argued the exact opposite, that it was underpriced. It was certainly a common high end tournament staple for being an overpriced unit...

Of course you can disagree with just about everything I said above, but that's the way I look at it. The Wraithknight clearly isn't the biggest offender in the new book. I think the smaller units gaining free very powerful upgrades are much bigger issues to complain about.

I'd agree that things like Wraithguard are bigger offenders, but that doesn't mean the Wraithknight isn't a pretty huge issue either.

<--- just got an entirely mediocre new codex right before a couple brand new PowerBooks came out.

Sad days ahead for me as far as competitive games go. :(

The old model was *overpriced*? Most people would have argued the exact opposite, that it was underpriced. It was certainly a common high end tournament staple for being an overpriced unit...

Yeah it was overpriced. Not everyone used them by any means. They weren't nearly as points effective as say Riptides.

They were included in armies because nothing else in the codex did the job they did, which was being sort of resilient guys that move 12"+ every turn and threaten close combat while taking pot shots at stuff. They countered a lot of units that would otherwise roll through the Eldar army.

That doesn't mean they still can't be overpriced -- It just means they are your only source of doing something. And they weren't that much overpriced. Like I said, about 20 points.

And you don't need to counter my argument by linking every crap unit in the game, because they're probably overpriced too.

FNP on a T8 W6 GC is worth *WAY* more than 30pts. Stomp attacks can easily be worth 50pts.

I edited it before you posted that I concede that FNP can cost even 50 points on this model. Stomps on the other hand aren't all purpose enough to warrant too high points increase. You can't charge a premium for every single thing that sometimes gets used. You can charge a lot on things that always get applied, like FNP.

T8 W6 for 240 points is 40 points per wound without an invulnerable save. Despite the toughness that's not exactly cheap, especially as you consider the resilience is the forté and firepower certainly isn't. 1 strength 10 shot per 120 points is horribly expensive to counter balance it. My argument is that this is overpriced.

T8 W6 FNP for 295 points is 50 points per wound. Now the wound is more protected but it's still a 50 point wound. That's not cheap, when once again the resilience is the major strength here, because the model gets one S D shot per almost 150 points, which is again horribly expensive. It's a walking brick wall that doesn't shoot that hard.

This thing is priced pretty well by GW. Direct your complaints elsewhere, IMO.

 Therion wrote:
Stomps on the other hand aren't all purpose enough to warrant too high points increase. You can't charge a premium for every single thing that sometimes gets used. You can charge a lot on things that always get applied, like FNP.

They shouldn't, but GW DOES charge a premium for things that only sometimes get used. Basically every Assault Unit that pays out the nose for marginally useful abilities like Rage, or Fleet, or Furious Charge, etc. Except in this instance, they just give away these things for free (Wraithblades clearly are outshined by Wraithguard now, so the solution is free Rage apparently).

Such obvious trolling or mindblowing naivety or extreme bias who can say.

T8 and 6 wounds and fast and deadly, can outduel an Imperial Knight and keep out of reach of said Knight while it blasts away at it.

There is no way it shouldn't have been 300p base and it also should never have gained any kind of access to S D unless of course it went up to 400p

Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.





Hmmmmmm

Lets look at a comparison with a 375P knight.

The Knight only, only ever has S D in CC unlike the WK. The IK can be killed by a unit of stern guard or other drop melta with relative ease. One alone has never been an issue.

A T8 GC on the other hand is a beast that can't be one shotted by anything and also has FNP to boot? Sweet Zombie Jesus.

Can't remember seeing anything, is the wraithknight LOW or HS

Hmm I will seriously consider doing Eldar on the other hand if I can make it work with Striking Scorpions and Karandras, a non cheese list, I would definitely do that.

No S D in sight I might add.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
WK is LoW

thegrutton wrote:
Can't remember seeing anything, is the wraithknight LOW or HS

95% sure it's a LoW.

Thanks

Well since you're calling me naive I can respond ad hominem and say I'm glad none of you are designing games.

Because the exact design of overpointing things for attributes that may or may not be used sometimes are the reason most of Forgeworlds units have for over a decade been unusable because of being horribly points inefficient.

A power creep inflation exists. It varies in strength. Maybe sometimes its 2%, sometimes 10%, but it drives sales to keep making armies and units that on the surface seem effective and interesting. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as it keeps going forever and everyone keep getting stronger.

Who on earth would field a 400 point Wraithknight? The same casual player that would field it even if it cost 700 points, that's who.

Why would you call bias when you don't even know the background of the poster or what armies he plays or where he plays or how he plays? I'm actually looking at the units objectively and trying to dissect them to see IF the units are a) underpriced and b) if so the magnitude of the pricing mistake. If a unit is underpriced by 5% we can just forget it and call it inflation. If it's underpriced by 30% or more then we can say we have a unit that will cause trouble on the battlefields. These units are labeled cheesy, and many armies have them. I've yet to see any evidence that this is the case here but please do keep the discussion going. Just try not to be biased because you don't play Eldar and are up to your ears sick of losing against them, and form an objective opinion instead.

Oh my lord this keeps getting better, I see some people heads may have actually exploded with the further leaks.

I just think that a lot of people are xenophobic.

Personally I welcome our alien overlords.

I don't get what the issue is but then again I am one of those weird people who plays with and against FW and often on a board with more terrain than a hill and a stand of citadel trees.

While I agree if you play on a board setup like a 17th century pitched battle, then 40 inches worth of jetbikes may well be an issue. However play in a city and things change to favour marines and other armies again,except orks GW really does not like you i figure kirby got beat by orks a lot or his wife got fondled by a grot or somthing.