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One of the things that almost made me quit this hobby is the obsession at my local club and store with super heavy's and ludicrous points games (like 12000 points per side).
I wouldn't mind super heavies if they were something special that a game revolved around, or if I had an entire weekend to play a game with some friends with some decent objectives and something to do whilst the opponent was moving his gagillion gaunts, but these games always seem to degenerate into ego massages.
One of the most annoying things I find is that no-one ever seems to have an apocalypse rulebook or templates, or its a kid who wants to use internet rules to make his Baneblade BS4 Armour 14/13 for just 100 points

Anyone else get annoyed by this and thinks 3 hours is too short a time to play a 12000 point game? I stopped going to my local store on games night because 3 of the five tables would inevitibly be taken up by an Apoc game that wouldn't even get finished!

Oh yes. I'd love for normal games. At the moment it isn't even points. It's more "Slap whatever onto the table and call it a day".

My FLGS dosen't have too many Apoc. games over 2 tables, even thats a bit rare.

I've thankfully on seen one apoc game at my local GW and that was at the end of a campaign, it was fitting with the ruling you had 2K points each and could include only one data sheet, and that there must be equal structure points on each side - no flank march!. We All got there to start at 6pm, and it lasted till 1030pm, brilliant.

I've played a Apoc with friends and again it took a long time, some planning and was brilliant.

I think in your average evening gaming session, you've got to bear in mind that a 1.5K game could last up to 2 hours (hoard army vs hoard army) and that if you want to play a 3 -4 K game you've got to organise.

Plus just showing up with A.N superheavy and the other person has say no melta weaponry is just not going to be fun for one of those people!

I'm yet to actually play Apocalypse, but I picked up the special edition Apocalypse backpack that had the book, dice, templates (even the vortex grenade template!) and some other goodies at a flea market for cheap. I'd love to play, but frankly I don't know anyone in my area with enough points to play such a big game. Maybe I can play a good sized game over my brief summer break or something.

I'd likely buy a plastic Warhound. Just saying.

I have a Baneblade and a Stompa and all the apocalypse crap and have not played one single Apoc game. If I want to play more than 1,000 points at my FLGS, I have to agree to a 2 on 1. Of course, that's usually pretty interesting because then I end up fighting two Noobs who totally don't know the rules. It's not that I want to cheat to win the game, but I just get in a little squeaker now and then to mess with them.

We do 1 Apoc game a month. There are six of us in the group who play it and have superheavies. The non Apoc players at the store don't understand why we play, but the 6 of us have various and assorted superheavies and like to put them to use. We time the turns though and can get through 6 turns in 6 hours.

my local GW does an apoc game once every 2 months or so. i usualy take part in it with my orks and their stompa. although it takes a while, if you plan ahead like we do it can be quite enjoyable and the game might even reach a conclusion!

Actually I love Apocalypse games, in fact I've played more apocalypse in the last year or so than normal sized games. They're a lot of fun, but the only thing is you have to set up some house rules to get rid of the really crazy game-breaking stuff, especially in multiplayer games. Like, all players must have a book or at least a photo copy of the real datasheet for what they're using weather it's a datasheet or just for strategems. And most importantly all players should focus on their area of the board and don't run around with a template yelling "who can I shoot????". Just because your basilisk can shoot anywhere it doesn't mean that it should. It goes a lot better if you know who you're playing with and against, or at the very least has a moderator/GM

Grim.Badger wrote:One of the things that almost made me quit this hobby is the obsession at my local club and store with super heavy's and ludicrous points games (like 12000 points per side).
I wouldn't mind super heavies if they were something special that a game revolved around, or if I had an entire weekend to play a game with some friends with some decent objectives and something to do whilst the opponent was moving his gagillion gaunts, but these games always seem to degenerate into ego massages.
One of the most annoying things I find is that no-one ever seems to have an apocalypse rulebook or templates, or its a kid who wants to use internet rules to make his Baneblade BS4 Armour 14/13 for just 100 points

Anyone else get annoyed by this and thinks 3 hours is too short a time to play a 12000 point game? I stopped going to my local store on games night because 3 of the five tables would inevitibly be taken up by an Apoc game that wouldn't even get finished!

I love apocalypse, but played that way, I'd feel like you do.

We schedule 6 hours for our big games. All models have to be painted and based. If you don't own an apocalypse rulebook, you don't get to use any strategies. No scratch built warlords from cardboard boxes. We tend to try and theme the games a bit, if possible. Certain strategies and cheesy stuff has just been told to go home, as some things can ruin games before they start.

Do it right, and you can do 40,000 pts per side in 5-6 hours, and have a hell of alot of fun.

It's rare to see expansion style games played at my local store. The Store runs a mega battle once a month or maybe once every other month where they'll use Apoc rules and sometimes layer on another expansion like Cities of Death or Planet Strike. Most of the time there are 1500-2000pt games played using the normal rules.

I think it's good to shake things up now and then, but playing one type of game, be it Apoc or normal rules, over and over again would get stale regardless of ruleset.

I love Apocalypse more than regular 40K(I even got to pop Yakface's Apoc cherry).

That said, it takes the right group to do correctly(I miss you SLO gamers!) and plenty of organizing. Scenario Apoc games are the best(try one with nothing but non-vehicles).

That sounds fun!

Scenario gaming is the only way to play Apoc IMO. Bring'n'play and just playing the basic mission are simply roads to unhappy players. Bringing any sort of competitive aspect into Apoc doesn't work, so you need to have the mission set the parameters for you.

We've played about 6 Apoc games since it came out, and where most people play 15,000 points per side with 3-4 players per side, we play 15,000 points per player with 2-3 per side, so these are big games.

The first game was a mess - we tried to play it like a normal 40K game and ended up with stupid situations like 100+ Guardsmen lining the table edge to stop flank march as best we could and armies filled with the most suped-up uber-Elite troops we could find. No balance, no theme, no story. The only interesting part was where Abaddon teleported down and attacked the Eldar Seer Council.

Ever since that game we've ensured that each game had a very set theme going.

1. A combined Eldar/Inquisitorial Guard force is attempting to stop a Daemon Prince being freed from a Webway prison. There was a 'Summoning Circle' of high-level Chaos characters that had to roll each turn to bring the Daemon Prince back. We had to fight through the Chaos lines to stop them, all the while trying to close a warp-rift that was just spilling non-generic Daemons at us. In the end we failed, the mighty Daemon Prince was released, and our forces were forced to retreat. My Inquisitor Lord did manage to get a wound on the Prince in HTH before being smashed.

2. A follow up game to the previous one, with the Daemon Prince still not at full strength and wounded form his encounter with my Inquisitor. So he had to spend most of the game being healed while the Summoning Circle conjured up warp-gates to leave the planet before the Imperial/Eldar counter-attack. That game went a little better, with the Chaos forces demolished but still managing to get a few key figures away (including the Daemon Prince).

3. Part 1 of a massive 3-part campaign that took place over three days. A huge Chaos force is invading a planet, and the main Nurgle contingent has found a weak spot in the Guard defensive lines. Defended only by some light infantry, a gaggle of Ecclisiarchical units and a few tanks, a big mechanised and bike-borne assault force was thrown at the defensive line. The Eldar, seeing the weakness, dispatched who they could to help out, but only light forces - a stack of Rangers and a Wind Rider Host - could make it. Things were in the balance when 20+ Terminators from a Renegade Marine Chapter teleported in, ripping into the Guard and Eldar lines like a hot knife through butter.

4. Part 2 of the 3-part campaign failed as the other side tried to play it competitively again, taking the best units they could and min/maxing everything. I, oddly, had the smallest force on the table - 20 Russes and 3 Baneblades backed up by 2 45-man Cadian platoons. Backed up by 12 Falcons and 12 Wave Serpents full of Aspect Warriors, the game was a huge counter-attack against the Chaos lines. The Guard tanks took the brunt of the damage, but the deadly Eldar skimmers cut through the Chaos armour quite well, buying us time to pull out a win. We even managed to kill two of the major Chaos commanders in that game, one of them being singled out by an Eldar flyer as he tried to make it across open ground to one of the buildings nearby.

5. Part 3 of the 3-part campaign was a massive frontal assault upon a heavily defended position. With another 10 Russes, my full Arty Corp, my other three Super-Heavies, a platoon of Mordians, Inquisitorial assets, Blood Ravens, and loads of static Eldar units (defence batteries, Guardians, Dark Reapers), we waited for an enormous Chaos and Renegade Marine force to attack. We had a superior position, but Alpha Legion forces had managed to take the walls before the game started, giving the Chaos players perfect fields of fire with Havoc units into our lines. It took 6000 points worth of Grey Knights to dislodge the Alpha Legion and give us half a chance as the 20+ Chaos vehicles poured into the main area. The timely arrival of two Revenant Titans helped turn the tide, wiping out most of the first Chaos assault, but the Chaos players used the same trick from the first game, sending in waves of Chaos and Renegade Terminators, felling my Macharius and one of the Revenants using Chainfists - 30 Harlis and the Blood Raven Terminators helped turn the tide there. The mighty Daemon Prince from the 2nd and 3rd Apoc games showed up and it took the combined might of a 30-man Seer Council and a full-sized Grey Knight Grandmaster's Retinue to banish him back to the Warp. My forces found themselves staring down a quartet of non-generic Greater Daemons, and only the arrival of my 'Odd-Ball' Russ Company saved the day, flanking the Chaos forces that had been attempting to flank us. It was a huge game, with both sides completely decimated by the end. We called it a draw. The Chaos forces failed to take Fortress Shinoda, but Lord Commander Bennington's Andronicon PDF and the various allied forces were heavily depleted and unable to pursue and wipe out the Chaos forces.

I'm sure that if we had tried to play all the games as we did the first, there wouldn't've been a third game, as we'd all be sick of playing huge games that just amount to a penis-waving/wallet-on-the-table style affair where who wins is determined by who has the best models.

12k points total is 6k per side, or 3v3 with 2k per player - not at all unreasonable. The key with Apoc is to plan the event so things turn out OK.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Scenario gaming is the only way to play Apoc IMO. Bring'n'play and just playing the basic mission are simply roads to unhappy players. Bringing any sort of competitive aspect into Apoc doesn't work, so you need to have the mission set the parameters for you.

They had an Apoc. tourney at my FLGS

It was more like an excuse for everyone to showcase their FW bio-titans and flyers.

So WalletHammer 40K, in other words. That's why it doesn't work in a competative environment. Someone will always have more money than someone else, and it's not hard to win at Apoc when you take a WAAC list (especially with the unbalanced Strategic Assets you can get).

My FLGS plays a regular Apoc game every month and now with Lucky 13s going on they do a second. I've yet to play in one as I'm rebuilding my 40k collection from scratch, but I can't wait to get in on the action.

How are these events structured?

Bring'n'play, or is there a published mission beforehand that everyone reads and has time to prepare for?

Are sides set (ie. Imperial vs Orks) or is it random (Tau & Necrons & Eldar & Guard vs 'Nids & Marines)?

person person wrote:They had an Apoc. tourney at my FLGS

It was more like an excuse for everyone to showcase their FW bio-titans and flyers.

I dunno. The very phrase "Apoc tourney" is an oxymoron to me.

Seems to me like it'd be quicker and easier by first comparing bank balances for the qualifier, then going into the bathroom with a ruler for the finals...

But seriously, if you guys had fun, all good.

Well, at my FLGS it's almost always the same group of people that show up to play in the monthly Apoc game so everyone knows what to expect. We've always gone with the Imperial (and Eldar) vs. Everyone else kind of theme. As far as a mission or anything like that it doesn't happen too often. Every now and then we'll do cool new things and themes, but usually we just take a 55 gallon drum model and put it in the middle, statting that it is filled with a never ending supply of cheesy poofs and whoever possesses it at the end of the game is the ultimate winner.

We've all been playing together for nearly a decade so it's just understood that there isn't much competitiveness and cheese in a game like this. We just play to have fun.

H.B.M.C. wrote:How are these events structured?

Bring'n'play, or is there a published mission beforehand that everyone reads and has time to prepare for?

Are sides set (ie. Imperial vs Orks) or is it random (Tau & Necrons & Eldar & Guard vs 'Nids & Marines)?

Structured? ahahahaha! I wish! The closest you seem to get is "Bring everything you've got next week", the last one I saw had no space for movement on one side's deployment zone because it was full of models!

HBMC, I like some of those ideas you had. Ive never played Apoc, and never planned on it, but coming up with some ideas like they sounds fun.

I think I would play it with multiple objectives, or a single major objective. Id try to think of some ways they can interact with one another, such as capturing and holding an air tower that can call in a major air strike.

Seems pretty neat to me.