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Lately my Obliterator's have failed me. Deep striking to their death's failing to hit thing's with their wep's I always field a defiler, but alone it isn't very competitive.

I am thinking of having Havoc's with launcher's or fielding my Land Raider.

Are their alternative's to the Lash/Oblit list, or was i foolhardy for making a Cult marine army?

Lash/Oblitz ain't everything. I've tabled one at 2500 pts. with straight Vanilla CSM swarm/Rhino rush. Havocs work great at 1000 pts and below because you get more shots and more wounds, but tend to lack at higher levels for being so damn vulnerable and not near versatile enough. Just don't DS your Oblitz; there is *rarely* a good reason too. They walk up the table just fine, and as they get closer, switch to TL weapons. THE LR is expensive, crappy long range support in my opinion, but can kept with a min-sized squad and be made scoring too, making it much more worth it. Lots of people would disagree with me on that I'm sure.

Edit: Also, is your avatar Marik?

nope Mion from higurashi ^^

Yeah, the Raider is Damn Expensive i use it only in planet strike.

I'm thinking of a small havoc squad, 5 with missiles seem's cheaper than 3 oblit's, I guess my die will be kinder to me.

I run the same thing in combat patrols and other lower point games and it performs beautifully. It really depends how you want it to fit in your army as a whole. Chaos heavy slots are super-valuable to most lists, but if you're focusing elsewhere or have a spare one then I can't see it hurting.Min-sized Heavy bolter squads rule in combat patrols too.

Edit:
Slight resemblance?

CLR are really there to deliver something combatty into combat.

If missing is an issue
Oblits work just fine walking up the map and shooting plasma cannons.
They don't 'miss' that often.

And like Cannerus said, they have TL weapons.... if they miss it's due to dice, not them themselves.

Defilers and Vindis do work better in pairs, but in addition to that there should be several rhinos, IMO a min. of 3 for that armor saturation.

I don't run lash, but i still run oblits and they do fine enough.

Havocs lost their charm for me: not scoring, no tank hunters, and static.

My 7 Cents.

Oblits are awesome. If your dice are failing you, then things will be no different with havocs.

The alternative in a lash list is vindicators. Two oblits = 1 possessed vindi with a few points to spare. 2 or 3 defilers will work as well. They are easier to kill, but they have much better range and still kill clumped units fairly effectively.

To me, the most solid lash build is dual lash princes, 3 x 2 oblits (or 3 x 3 in big games) and plague marines in rhinos filling the points out.

Mion has green hair and is a girl, but........ I do see a similarity, she is alot paler too.

two defilers would be scary but it would'nt be till like the school year i could get another one

I am making a 1500-1000 pt list for my hobby shop, many people have only just started
i had my awesome 1850 list, but i wana tone it down to something smaller.

hmm
I want Razerbacks why can't my rhino's have lascannon's on their backs?

Well... it's called 5 havocs with 2 lascannons shooting out of a Rhino...heh.
But I don't suggest it.

The closest thing we get to a razorback is a Rhino with a havoc launcher.
That's about it sadly.

But Chaos is Chaos, lets strive to stick with the things that make us unique........like our HQ, troops, and oblits.

Anyone find it funny that it's our unique items that get all the hate?
Whether it's competitive cheese: Daemonprince, Plague marines, oblits.
Or it's the suckness: Greater daemon, lesserdaemon, Spawn, Possessed.

/shrug.

My 7 Cents.

it is, i swear by Daemon princes i may try one with wind of chaos instead of lash, which is not too hard.

The list is gonna include Noise Marine's and my defiler of cource

Maybe some Vanilla Marine's after all not all EC are Noise marine's


My Oblit's have torn the other armies a new one in their past, but lately my die have been horrible to me

Don't think i will have Blastmaster's they are one of my fav wep's but for a smaller game, I don't quite see where i can put them down.

Oh well when i hear people about Chaos i just say..... So when's the last time you'r dreaddy killed a team of you'r marine's?

I luvs my summoned Greater Granted I have 5+ Rhinoes at 2500 so he always comes in at a good spot and typically makes his points on his first turn.

In 2k points, I run a squad with 4 autocannon havocs and 2 autocannon-lascannon sponson predators. The points I save from these cheaper (yet more effective at what they do) alternatives over oblits goes into 2 free dreadnoughts that, despite their crazed rule, simply cant be ignored by the enemy.

Youre paying 75 points for versatility. Oblits can still only shoot once a turn. Taking those points and dividing them into units that specialize in a role for a cheaper total is far better. Havocs with autocannons can take down light vehicles (up to AV13) better than 3 oblits can, and the 2 predators have more lascannons point for point than oblits (thats not even including the 4 autocannon shots).

Oblits, in my opinion, have their uses when you make a list thats not based around heavy support. If you need something to take big things down, and you barely have enough space, oblits are great. However, if you want to make a true point efficient list, I dont think theyre part of it.

I fight very little heavy armor, sides from vect and leman russes, with only 14 armor front.

I have never given autocannon's a shot. might be what ill do.


I always wanted to try lascannon havocs but that would be damn expensive.

Lascannon havocs are expensive.
Though Autocannons are decent weapons, I miss the old days of tank hunters.

My 7 Cents.

I've seen the same thing with oblits... They seem to be very effective at certain point totals, but only having one shot really does have its disadvantages. Is there any way to get havocs at a decent price? I'm thinking about heavy options and I'd love them, but I'm sure as hell not spending $40 for one of each. Any ideas?

You can buy havoc's seperately with the weapon you want, if worse comes to worse steal loyalist weapon's I'm sure they won't mind.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I've seen the same thing with oblits... They seem to be very effective at certain point totals, but only having one shot really does have its disadvantages. Is there any way to get havocs at a decent price? I'm thinking about heavy options and I'd love them, but I'm sure as hell not spending $40 for one of each. Any ideas?

Well, in my opinion, autocannons are the only way to go with them. Lascannons cost too many points, and ACs have twice as many shots at only 1 strength less than missles.

All I did with my autocannon havocs was chop off the twin linked autocannons from my 2 defilers (if i run them, its with 2 CCWs, which is in my opinion the best way anyways) to make 4 autocannons.

I took regular bolters and chopped the ammo belt and the nozzle off of them. I then trimmed down the ACs a bit and glued it on the front. Finally, I divided the defiler's ammo belt into smaller pieces and glued them under the bolter. I think they look great, and Im usually not a fan of conversions like this.

Heres a pic (with my iphone so its not great quality):

those are sick autocannon's I'm trying to make a greenstuff+bits second arm, i might try to use the Autocannon, for that, have to get the paint off of the gun's though.

try a vinicater

Vindy's are only good with possession


but it's 5 point's less then my defiler. hmm maybe but i won't be getting more unit's untill way later.

All the hvy's have their pros and cons.
I feel the vehicles and havocs have more issues due to the rules set more than the unit themselves.

Havocs: pay same for CSM but not scoring, 5th ed = rise of mech.

Pres: looks like you can't move and shoot with dakka preds, while lascannons are generally over priced, and every varient is overpriced with respect to loyalist point values.

LR: identity crisis and no Machine spirit and smaller capacity.

Defiler: HUGE...........and lots of cover saves infantry can get.

Vindi: big side armor and same issue with enemy getting cover saves.

Which leaves oblits, obviously they don't like str 8 + weapons, but they get to claim cover saves, you gain flexibility with deployment and weapon usage.

You have to kil them before you can silence them, they get a variet of saves, are mobile with respect to firing at full effect.

My 7 Cents.

I do regret buying my LR that 70$ could of been something better me think's oh well such is he price for buying model's just cause I think their cool. :S

Just to give Havocs another thumbs up.

I love em because of 4 special weapons without any extra point cost involved.

Oblits seem way too coll not to use, but i consider them to be kinda expensive, and kinda out of their place when you hit a horde army without lashes to make the most out of those Plasma cannon shots.

LR were cool up to last codex, when you could at least fire an extra weapon at BS 2. If wed ever get something like that back, itll see alot more action again.

I can't tell you how many sets of dice have been thrown out onto the interstate on my way home from a game of bad rolls.

The dice must be punished.

Night Lords wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I've seen the same thing with oblits... They seem to be very effective at certain point totals, but only having one shot really does have its disadvantages. Is there any way to get havocs at a decent price? I'm thinking about heavy options and I'd love them, but I'm sure as hell not spending $40 for one of each. Any ideas?

Well, in my opinion, autocannons are the only way to go with them. Lascannons cost too many points, and ACs have twice as many shots at only 1 strength less than missles.

All I did with my autocannon havocs was chop off the twin linked autocannons from my 2 defilers (if i run them, its with 2 CCWs, which is in my opinion the best way anyways) to make 4 autocannons.

I took regular bolters and chopped the ammo belt and the nozzle off of them. I then trimmed down the ACs a bit and glued it on the front. Finally, I divided the defiler's ammo belt into smaller pieces and glued them under the bolter. I think they look great, and Im usually not a fan of conversions like this.

Heres a pic (with my iphone so its not great quality):

Those are great! Personally I'm a big fan of autocannons because of their high volume of fire and decent strength. They can take out all the light armour/MC's which will leave your big guns to deal with AV13/14 threats. S7 isn't great against anything better than AV11, but if you have enough volume isn't anything good enough to get the job done? If you put enough S7 shots on my carnifex he'll eventually fail enough saves, and with such great range he won't be a threat to you for quite some time. My question for you is this though: You have AC havocs to deal with light/massed armour, what do you use for really heavy armour to compliment the havocs?

You have two options when vs. hordes:
1. Plasma cannons: no need for lash, you can tank shock them to get them bunched up. You can feed him small throw away units so they are more clumped up than usual when they consolidate. Most hordes won't spread out 120 models.... .there's only so much time during a game...seriously.
2. If you are good with deepstrike or have icons close by, same thing with TL flamers, tank shock, etc etc etc.

Hell, even hordes may armored targets to shoot at, whatever the AV.

If they don't then just have the oblits support the troopers who will most likely be doing most of the work anyway.

My 7 Cents.

Thanks for the tip with tank shock, totally forgot that one ^^. Here i come Niddies.

I love autocannon Havocs. Its just funky firing off 8 strength 7 ap 4 shots a turn (dakka dakka dakka). And there is the good old Autocannon/Lascannon Pred. Personally i never use oblits and i do just fine. (that is because i would have no idea how to paint them decent, so i just put them off)

Yea my list has Auto Havoc's in it.

Hope it work's out well.

Damn you all, I have to build a squad of 'em tonight. Looks my reaper Autocannons get to be chopped up and put to good use for once...

One idea for heavy support is to take 3 defilers and then screen them with Rhinos so that they get cover saves. It works pretty well.