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DarkHound wrote:Havocs horrible for a Khorne player? God's balls man! How else are you going to get your meltapower in? 4 Meltaguns, MoK and a Champ with a Powerfist. Bam, instant anti-tank and it is great in close combat!

i'm going to have to concur that you can do the same with troop choices AND chosen. that way i dont have to use those precious 3 slots for something you can get in two other places and do more, chosen can infiltrate! i'd choose a chosen squad over a havoc squad any day for an anti-tank squad outflanking is too good to pass up.

Havocs and Chosen are almost interchangable. You get to outflank, but you pay for it. If you are starved for Heavy Slots in a Khorne list, get some Terminators and make your Landraiders Elites. Personally, I'd rather not Outflank so much valuable melta incase they don't come on time or come in on the wrong side. On top of that, when the unit shows up it is going to be isolated, where Havocs would be protected by your armies target saturation.

If you want to use normal CSM for tank hunting, be my guest, but you are spending a minimum of 170 points to get 2 Meltaguns. They aren't going to be used as scoring units, because you are chasing tanks with them. It does give you the option to hang them back and capture, but then you aren't hunting tanks. Havocs have a smaller minimum, can take more and don't have a confused objective.

Something to consider are the fire points on a Rhino. Only two models can fire out at a time, but they can do so at the same time as the Rhino is shooting. Giving a unit of Havocs a couple of Heavy weapons and a couple of special weapons means that they can either sit still and provide long ranged support, or move and shoot. A couple of Lascannons and a couple of Melta Guns might make for a decent anti-tank squad.

Two meltaguns two autocannons is pretty sweet in a rhino.

It's kind of expensive though so Eh.


Personally I love playing with 10 havocs and 4 flamers in a rhino.

Two Meltaguns, two Autocannons for a 5 man squad in a Rhino with a Havoc Launcher and Possession. 205 points. Our answer to the Razorback, hah. I'll ask Gwar!, but Possession should allow the crew members to continue firing with the tank through stuns and shaken. That could be something worth looking into, and while it is by no means competative (atleast not until I figure it out) it is hilarious.

Maybe two heavy bolters? No, Rocket Launchers for mass templates!

Havocs with 4 plasma guns are really nice as well.

@Darkhound:
Scoring units don't always have to hang back.
There are objectives that are outside of your own deployment zone.

And just because a squad purchase meltas doesn't mean they have to act like idiots and chase down a tank. They could be a defensive upgrade, for those times when someone tank shocks the squad trying to remove them off THEIR objective...then you get to death and glory, next turn 3-4 meltas in the tanks face to stop it from contesting and such.

My 7 Cents.

DarkHound wrote:Two Meltaguns, two Autocannons for a 5 man squad in a Rhino with a Havoc Launcher and Possession. 205 points. Our answer to the Razorback, hah. I'll ask Gwar!, but Possession should allow the crew members to continue firing with the tank through stuns and shaken. That could be something worth looking into, and while it is by no means competative (atleast not until I figure it out) it is hilarious.

I remember reading that possession doesn't affect troops in transports, i think it was in its entry in the wargear section... i wish i had my codex at work :(

-edit- Darkhound i would disagree on the melta squad for normal CSM...outside competitive play. Melta squad in a rhino works well for grabbing objectives on the other side of the map in a tank/walker heavy army, as long as theres some long range AT too

Yes 2 Meltaguns on your scoring unit works well defensively. That is why I have two on my Plague Marines, but you also need melta weapons dedicated to offense. They have to be chasing tanks because, as the dedicated melta bearers, they are the only ones who can. If there is something worth melting CSM have to be chasing it down (how else are you going to get rid of that Landraider or LRBT?), so their scoring is irrelevant. After you get past that, like I've said before, they have a higher buy in, and less meltas compared to Chosen or Havocs.

You should never be chasing down tanks with meltas, unless youre in complete control of the board and theres nothing else left and youre trying to box them in. Youre just going to get outmaneuvered and will pointlessly be chasing them around the board.

The whole 4x melta gun thing is pointless, because you can have 2x meltas on every squad anyways. There may be situations where its good, such as outflanking an IG line with them, but otherwise the points can be put into guns with other roles.

If you have all melta guns against eldar, youre going to get creamed. You need long range support so they cant just move away and keeping shooting at you. You will never catch their fast vehicles with melta guns (and they have special rules too that make them impossible to kill even if you do).

Havocs should be for long range fire, period. You dont need to lose scoring to get an extra two meltas, especially when the basic CSM squad costs 255 points (meaning youre only going to have 2-3). Give them autocannons/missles/lascannons and make them a threat to everything on the board.

Dont diss my 4 flamers.

If youre talking to me, I think that the 4 flamer chosen is fantastic in the right situation. You can annihilate an entire squad with them.

2X 4 flamer squads in a landraider with MOK? overkill? not against 50 guardsmen. everything else, it is just a pointless show of silly amounts of strength, then again you can keep one squad in the LR and deploy them one at a time.

If you mean two different squads of 4 flamers in a single land raider, youre not allowed to do that. Only 1 squad and ICs may be aboard a transport.

Well... couldn't the IG kill the LR and then the chosen are left on foot, which makes them actually lame.

Like Night Lords says: "4 flamer chosen is fantastic IN THE RIGHT SITUATION" emphasis mine.

Outflanking in a Rhino from the sides or having multiple rhino squads going at the enemy…
I prefer the scoring kind:
10 CSM/or 7-10 Plague marines, Rhino, 2 Flamers, Combi flamer.
3 Templates is decent as well.

My 7 Cents.

Personally I run LR's, Oblits, or my Defiler. Preds normally perform sub-par for me, mostly due to all the anti-tank hate at my store. Dakka pred would be the way to go around where I am, but gotta wait for my new pred in the mail.

Havocs are a nifty idea, but my MAIN issue is that they are so vunerable, thus they will give up an easy VP. Also if I have to move them to get them into position, they can't shoot. If they shoot, but they're in a bad position, I can't move. Thats my primary issue with them. That and they cost so darn much :/

Zid wrote:Personally I run LR's, Oblits, or my Defiler. Preds normally perform sub-par for me, mostly due to all the anti-tank hate at my store. Dakka pred would be the way to go around where I am, but gotta wait for my new pred in the mail.

Havocs are a nifty idea, but my MAIN issue is that they are so vunerable, thus they will give up an easy VP. Also if I have to move them to get them into position, they can't shoot. If they shoot, but they're in a bad position, I can't move. Thats my primary issue with them. That and they cost so darn much :/

How do you see havocs as vulnerable? Every single heavy support option is vulnerable except maybe the LR simply because it can avoid so many types of weapons and some lists may not be able to even have a chance at scratching it, but so many lists today count on SM/CSM players to take LRs that not having the proper anti-vehicle weaponry is rare.

Oblits - Get them in base contact with the proper CC unit and they are taking a dirt nap. You can have all the gun options in the world but it wont save you when all you have is a 2+ and a 5+ invul and 2 wounds on a max of 3 models per squad.

Predators - terrible rear armor, bad side armor, and essentially one wound (and quite a few glance/pen options that will make it useless without needing to actually kill it) means this option if hit from the proper angle is very vunlerable.

Havocs - They're MEQs , the same stat line as basic csm troops. Makes them vulnerable to anti-meq fire which most people count on in tournaments/etc.

Land Raider - LRs are definitely sturdy as hell but they also pay for that in points (essentially the same as a 8-10 man havoc squad, 3-4 preds, or 3 oblits).

So every single option has a counter and downsides. The "best" choice is the one that helps you take on your enemy, and in a tournament where you don't know your opponent the one that can help you be versatile and take on all comers and be prepared for all types of units. In big games my personal favorite is 2 squads of havocs (either both 4x autocannons and 4x regular marines, or 4x ML and 4x AC or mix 2ml+2ac ) and 1 squad of 3 oblits (they fill in with whatever weapons you need, without cutting down your shot count too much). Having a large squad of havocs allows you to take cheap but still effective weapons like the missile launcher and autocannon in large numbers and have extra squad members to take hits. Plus the idea is to keep the enemy focused on your core block of troops/elites/hq , not your heavy support .

Halsfield wrote:

Zid wrote:Personally I run LR's, Oblits, or my Defiler. Preds normally perform sub-par for me, mostly due to all the anti-tank hate at my store. Dakka pred would be the way to go around where I am, but gotta wait for my new pred in the mail.

Havocs are a nifty idea, but my MAIN issue is that they are so vunerable, thus they will give up an easy VP. Also if I have to move them to get them into position, they can't shoot. If they shoot, but they're in a bad position, I can't move. Thats my primary issue with them. That and they cost so darn much :/

How do you see havocs as vulnerable? Every single heavy support option is vulnerable except maybe the LR simply because it can avoid so many types of weapons and some lists may not be able to even have a chance at scratching it, but so many lists today count on SM/CSM players to take LRs that not having the proper anti-vehicle weaponry is rare.

Oblits - Get them in base contact with the proper CC unit and they are taking a dirt nap. You can have all the gun options in the world but it wont save you when all you have is a 2+ and a 5+ invul and 2 wounds on a max of 3 models per squad.

Predators - terrible rear armor, bad side armor, and essentially one wound (and quite a few glance/pen options that will make it useless without needing to actually kill it) means this option if hit from the proper angle is very vunlerable.

Havocs - They're MEQs , the same stat line as basic csm troops. Makes them vulnerable to anti-meq fire which most people count on in tournaments/etc.

Land Raider - LRs are definitely sturdy as hell but they also pay for that in points (essentially the same as a 8-10 man havoc squad, 3-4 preds, or 3 oblits).

So every single option has a counter and downsides. The "best" choice is the one that helps you take on your enemy, and in a tournament where you don't know your opponent the one that can help you be versatile and take on all comers and be prepared for all types of units. In big games my personal favorite is 2 squads of havocs (either both 4x autocannons and 4x regular marines, or 4x ML and 4x AC or mix 2ml+2ac ) and 1 squad of 3 oblits (they fill in with whatever weapons you need, without cutting down your shot count too much). Having a large squad of havocs allows you to take cheap but still effective weapons like the missile launcher and autocannon in large numbers and have extra squad members to take hits. Plus the idea is to keep the enemy focused on your core block of troops/elites/hq , not your heavy support .

Oh I realize EVERYTHING has a weakness. If they didn't the game wouldn't balance itself out, eh? My issue is that havocs lack mobility, which is huge in this game. The fact you can move your vehicles and shoot is key, oblits have every wep you could want and can still move if you want (and have termi saves none the less). Yeah, if you wanna sit havocs in a tower or a piece of terrain and shoot up, that works great. But I have a very aggressive, mobile playstyle, and I love armys that can move and adapt to the field. Things that present a threat no matter how you place things. I'm not saying Havocs aren't good. They pack a punch and can rape face, just like SM dev squads. But the lack of mobility, and being squishy as well, is MY issue with em.

And yeah, oblits fail at CC :( they should have had lightning claws or something

They should have morphable CC wep's

and t5 really i mean their damn pricey.

Zid:

So if you want mobile Havocs, take four special weapons, like four Melta Guns or four Plasma Guns. Or split the difference of two special and two Heavy.

Zid wrote:
Oh I realize EVERYTHING has a weakness. If they didn't the game wouldn't balance itself out, eh? My issue is that havocs lack mobility, which is huge in this game. The fact you can move your vehicles and shoot is key, oblits have every wep you could want and can still move if you want (and have termi saves none the less). Yeah, if you wanna sit havocs in a tower or a piece of terrain and shoot up, that works great. But I have a very aggressive, mobile playstyle, and I love armys that can move and adapt to the field. Things that present a threat no matter how you place things. I'm not saying Havocs aren't good. They pack a punch and can rape face, just like SM dev squads. But the lack of mobility, and being squishy as well, is MY issue with em.

And yeah, oblits fail at CC :( they should have had lightning claws or something

Moving 4 or 5 inches a turn with oblits is mobile? Dont make me laugh. I play a fast army too, where 96% of it can move 12", and I use havocs with autocannons. No problem at all with them, If you have to move them, then youre most likely slaughtering your opponent anyways unless you placed them in a bad spot.

Havocs are also the cheapest and least vulnerable out of all the HS options (other than a LR). You wont lose 225 points of havocs to 3 meltas like you will oblits.

You can with havocs.
Failed morale test and running away while being escorted.

Oblits and havocs will get cover saves, but out of it, oblits still get their inv.

Again, one pays for flexibility in specialization with Oblits. Havocs are geared towards a goal (which can be flexible, but not as specialized as oblits).

Oblits are mobile, 4-5 inches over 5-7 turns is much better than 0 inches.
In addition, they are not newbs in Dawn of War situations...

My 7 Cents.

Havocs can buy an Invulnerable save, and a transport, which is better protection, mobility, and extra firepower. Plus, having more wounds and fighting at I4 (and maybe I5) gives them much more close combat survivability.

Being able to redeploy 12" a turn far exceeds Slow and Purposeful in terms of mobility, particularly in Dawn of War scenarios.

I think the distinction to make between Havocs and Obliterators is the difference in roles. There are simply things that one unit can do that the other cannot, such as Deep Strike, carry Icons, carry Grenades, and so on.

Definitely a lot of good posts from the previous 3 posters, exactly my thoughts on the units. Every squad fills a role and has weaknesses and I think a mix helps round your army out and cover your weaknesses. There are no "useless" or "insta-win" heavy support options like some people seem to think (ie people taking all oblits/etc). I constantly see people favoring oblits over havocs and I just don't think they have looked at all the angles.

Zid wrote:

Zid wrote:
Havocs are a nifty idea, but my MAIN issue is that they are so vunerable, thus they will give up an easy VP.

Oh I realize EVERYTHING has a weakness. If they didn't the game wouldn't balance itself out, eh?

Do you see the problem with what you said and why I pointed out that every unit has a vulnerability? Saying you don't take a unit because they are vulnerable implies you think the other options are sturdier, and they are not(again, except maybe for the LR, which has its own problems).

@shadowbrand:

I am hoping for some iron warriors love in the legion codex that is upcoming. Iron warriors can have the ability to morph their hands into any weapons they choose (similar to oblits, but not as wild) so they might have something like that. Where you might have a champion that can choose between a variety of heavy/special/close combat weapons every turn. Why oblits can only morph shooting weapons I don't know either.

Night Lords wrote:

Zid wrote:
Oh I realize EVERYTHING has a weakness. If they didn't the game wouldn't balance itself out, eh? My issue is that havocs lack mobility, which is huge in this game. The fact you can move your vehicles and shoot is key, oblits have every wep you could want and can still move if you want (and have termi saves none the less). Yeah, if you wanna sit havocs in a tower or a piece of terrain and shoot up, that works great. But I have a very aggressive, mobile playstyle, and I love armys that can move and adapt to the field. Things that present a threat no matter how you place things. I'm not saying Havocs aren't good. They pack a punch and can rape face, just like SM dev squads. But the lack of mobility, and being squishy as well, is MY issue with em.

And yeah, oblits fail at CC :( they should have had lightning claws or something

Moving 4 or 5 inches a turn with oblits is mobile? Dont make me laugh. I play a fast army too, where 96% of it can move 12", and I use havocs with autocannons. No problem at all with them, If you have to move them, then youre most likely slaughtering your opponent anyways unless you placed them in a bad spot.

Havocs are also the cheapest and least vulnerable out of all the HS options (other than a LR). You wont lose 225 points of havocs to 3 meltas like you will oblits.

Oh, I agree. But i rather move and shoot than shoot or move, period. I'm not denying the power of havocs, its just as devestating as dev squads, but they aren't mobile in the least. I face a LOT of SM and things to realize this, and plasma cannons own!

@ halsfield:

I realize what I said, but I rather be able to move and shoot every turn if I have to, even if its 3 inches. Its a personal preference. I'm not denying Havocs overall are better. But even mathhammer won't make me wanna play them anymore.

Zid wrote:

@ halsfield:

I realize what I said, but I rather be able to move and shoot every turn if I have to, even if its 3 inches. Its a personal preference. I'm not denying Havocs overall are better. But even mathhammer won't make me wanna play them anymore.

It is 100% fine if it is your personal preference, but the havocs arent more vulnerable(you've said this 2x now without backing it up) or less mobile. The option to run and take a rhino easily beats the oblit on mobility. Is mobility really necessary for their role in most games? No. Also, if you can't see your opponent the first turn and need to move to get a shot off, the oblits could potentially never get in position whereas the havocs can run/rhino and get there in a turn easily.

If you are going to deep strike you oblits into close combat I think that is a poor usage for them. They are going to get massacred and the expensive 225pt 3man squad is going down like a wet paper bag despite term/invul saves. Terminators with the proper combi-weapons or an assault loadout would be a better usage of points (almost 2 terms for one oblit). Chosen with the proper special weapons infiltrating or outflank + rhino would also be an excellent choice for that role.

Also, since when is a basic strategy discussion mathhammer? Mathhammer is when you bring out the calculator and start finding out exactly how many wounds per shot you are going to get and how many shots your armor will deflect/etc and basing your strategy around that. I'm not doing that and I don't think anyone else is either. You could say we are theoryhammering, but that implies you are supporting theories that you havent really tested/used in a real game which again isnt really the case.

Halsfield wrote:

Zid wrote:

@ halsfield:

I realize what I said, but I rather be able to move and shoot every turn if I have to, even if its 3 inches. Its a personal preference. I'm not denying Havocs overall are better. But even mathhammer won't make me wanna play them anymore.

It is 100% fine if it is your personal preference, but the havocs arent more vulnerable(you've said this 2x now without backing it up) or less mobile. The option to run and take a rhino easily beats the oblit on mobility. Is mobility really necessary for their role in most games? No. Also, if you can't see your opponent the first turn and need to move to get a shot off, the oblits could potentially never get in position whereas the havocs can run/rhino and get there in a turn easily.

If you are going to deep strike you oblits into close combat I think that is a poor usage for them. They are going to get massacred and the expensive 225pt 3man squad is going down like a wet paper bag despite term/invul saves. Terminators with the proper combi-weapons or an assault loadout would be a better usage of points (almost 2 terms for one oblit). Chosen with the proper special weapons infiltrating or outflank + rhino would also be an excellent choice for that role.

Also, since when is a basic strategy discussion mathhammer? Mathhammer is when you bring out the calculator and start finding out exactly how many wounds per shot you are going to get and how many shots your armor will deflect/etc and basing your strategy around that. I'm not doing that and I don't think anyone else is either. You could say we are theoryhammering, but that implies you are supporting theories that you havent really tested/used in a real game which again isnt really the case.

I was saying that based on mathhammer Havocs will do a assload more damage than Oblits in almost any scenerio. I only shoot with my blits anyway.

The reason I state that Havocs are more vunerable is; a bit worse save, no base invun, just a normal marine. Oblits are termis with 2 wounds. However, you could also argue the case that oblits get hit by a lascannon its an insta gib. Havocs get hit and you lose a dude with a bolter before you lose any "good" stuff.

I'm just saying my pref is with Oblits. Not because everyone runs them, but I personally like them, and the flavor of how they play is top notch. I mean what else gets a mutating arm that turns into giant cannons?

Sorry if I was unclear, I was pretty hammered last night haha

Considering 95% of the time it's AT fire shooting the havocs (theyre almost the only things that can keep in range with them, aside from snipers), youre still only going to get that 4+ cover save. The difference is havocs will have 8+ wounds instead of 3, and cost far, far less.

Night Lords wrote:Considering 95% of the time it's AT fire shooting the havocs (theyre almost the only things that can keep in range with them, aside from snipers), youre still only going to get that 4+ cover save. The difference is havocs will have 8+ wounds instead of 3, and cost far, far less.

This is true, and another thing I kept in mind. But it also depends on the board layout as well... I def wanna get some more Havocs tho, don't get me wrong. In games like Planetstrike and Apoc they will kill far more than their points worth, and in games like that mobility isn't as much of an issue (well at least defending in PS)

Zid:

Is that a Metric ass-load, or an Imperial ass-load? I'm just asking because my ass is calibrated for metric...