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It will be a LONG time before i can buy 2 more defiler's.


But i like it

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:
Those are great! Personally I'm a big fan of autocannons because of their high volume of fire and decent strength. They can take out all the light armour/MC's which will leave your big guns to deal with AV13/14 threats. S7 isn't great against anything better than AV11, but if you have enough volume isn't anything good enough to get the job done? If you put enough S7 shots on my carnifex he'll eventually fail enough saves, and with such great range he won't be a threat to you for quite some time. My question for you is this though: You have AC havocs to deal with light/massed armour, what do you use for really heavy armour to compliment the havocs?

2 predators with 2 lascannons and autocannons each, 2 dreadnoughts (yes, i thought they sucked too, but not since theyve been crushing land raiders and entire squads of dangerous units ex. khorne bloodletters), a prince and 8 melta guns, all moving 12 inches.

Autocannon Havocs w/ Rhinos and Havoc Launchers are sexy ,but.

4 Meltaguns w/ Rhino and Mark of Khorne are HILARIOUS.

I usually take 2 landraiders and a defiler in my lsits but I put thousand sons in my landraiders, get out rapid fire and charge and that works out well.

It depends on what your army needs the most.

Defilers are great if you just need more pie plates, vindicators are awesome if you need the s10 and ap2 and oblits fill in the gaps nicley along with havocs if you need autocannons.

I will tell you whats a great little unit and that is the Predator it does not get enough love at all.


Autocannon w/ Sponson heavy Bolters ; Havoc Launcher 120 points .


Delicious Goodness.

I had a Predator but it was in my old Iron warrior's Color's.

I've lost my love for dakka preds after 5th ed told them they had to sit still to play with all of their guns.
A shame IMO.

My 7 Cents.

Wait didn't your messed up red rhino use to be a pred before

I use a Laspred. It puts out more Lascannons than anything else in our dex with the best protection. Honestly, the lack of movement is made irrelevant by its 48" range. This is also what puts it leaps and bounds above Meltaguns, because you are able to shut down transports before they get anywhere. It has trouble against hard tanks, but it'll chew through any MC.

By the way, I did a thread on this same subject if you want to check it out: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/251007.page

I don't like preds because of their AV10 rear armor, their lack of being able to take AC sponsons, and their high cost if you load them up with AC+LCsponsons, and they effectively have one wound. Havocs for the same points get 3 wounds and 2x the shots.

Their AV 13 which with the distance of 48inche makes them very viable.

I have never had a problem with them being effective.

Also, they get Autocannon as a base turret. Unless you mean assault cannon which uhm the normal marine one doesnt even get.


Dakka Predators also have the benefit of being able to bring more firepower to bear on a target than a normal Predators with the ability to take Havoc Launchers that are mounted on the turret. So at minimum you are going to get 2 autocannon shots; Havoc Shot both which have 48 inch range; and 3 HB shots.


That range is what is important. Tanks cant break; put it in your back field with rear against hte board edge or terrain and go to town with a 48 inch range.

Darkhound i found that thread very usefull, However I am in favor of Oblit's

Because well I am a EC Noise Marine army, i am pretty much all Anti Infantry Oblits are flexable and that's something great, However were i a Undivided Non Cult army i probably would of fielded Auto Cannon Havoc's

Noise Marine's also lack cc punch this is why i always field a Daemon Prince, and often a Greater Daemon as well

Always was lash but lately i have gotten into Warptime.


Sorry if i resurrected a old topic, but i am newish .

You're definitely not wrong playing a cult army. I'm now over 12,000 points of Emperor's Children and still collecting faster than I can paint it all!

I use 2 defilers and a vindicator in 1850 games, with the aim being to get the defilers in cc. A single battlecannon shot isn't nearly as good at anti-tank as 5-6 S10 close combat attacks at rear armour!

In larger games I use the defiler pair with 3 obliterators, who actually don't spend their time popping tanks. The oblits are far more useful and much more reliable at killing hordes. Hordes of marines with plasmagun/cannons, or hordes of gribblies with t/l flamers. Use icons to deepstrike them and your scatter troubles are over.

My main at-range tankbusting comes from regular CSM squads with 2 meltaguns, and I have combi-meltas on all of my rhinos. Running the odds of a hit, followed by a pen, followed by destroying the enemy doesn't look good, especially since that doesn't factor in that you haven't had your rhino blown up or the weapon shot off yet - but it does make every rhino into an anti-tank threat, and that can mess with the enemy's head really well.

Exactly, and would you ever expect to get melta'd by a rhino? on the receiving end.

Hollismason wrote:Their AV 13 which with the distance of 48inche makes them very viable.

I have never had a problem with them being effective.

Also, they get Autocannon as a base turret. Unless you mean assault cannon which uhm the normal marine one doesnt even get.


Dakka Predators also have the benefit of being able to bring more firepower to bear on a target than a normal Predators with the ability to take Havoc Launchers that are mounted on the turret. So at minimum you are going to get 2 autocannon shots; Havoc Shot both which have 48 inch range; and 3 HB shots.

If you were responding to me yes I meant autocannons. Also,I never said preds were ineffective, just that imo havocs are more effective for the points in many cases. I said they could not take autocannon SPONSONS, not an AC turret(as they get by default). Your dakka pred costs 100 points, and it is not a bad choice by any means. However, in my infantry-based army I take havocs with autocannons. For every 2 havocs I can get one base(no upgrade) pred. For a dakka pred I can get 3. For a LC pred I can get 4. A dakka pred gets 2 more shots than the same points in havocs, but all the havoc shots are longer range and higher strength (whereas only 2 of the dakka preds shots are 48" and 7str). The pred can move and shoot(only shooting 1 weapon of course), which is definitely a bonus, but it loses points for having very poor armor anywhere but in front , which is easily taken care of by a smart player. One good shot at av11 or av10 armor and your 100 points is gone or made useless.

The point is that preds are decent, but the more points you put into them the more value you would get out of having havocs instead. Dakka preds come out almost even to the same points in havocs(with either having benefits over the other), but ac+lcsponson preds are outdone by havocs pretty easily imo. I wish preds had higher all around armor but the av11 side and av10 rear just doesnt cut it for me in today's metagame of anti-vehicle weaponry.

ok ok ok, i've had enough of you guys bashing the land raider. the land raider works wonderfully for my bezekers. if you are using it as a mobile fire platform then your doing something wrong. after you drop off your squad, then you can work on taking out the extra targets. my ork opponent loves to target it with everything he has and never receives so much as a scratch. it gets my men there safely every time.

obliterators are your pocket knife. you need to find the most vulnerable spot and deep strike them there. obviously you gotta know you limitations, taking on a full squad of 30 orks is going to hurt. but, not if you use your twin-linked flamers. if your playing kill points that obviously not a good idea, but 15 or so dead orks in a objective based game is going to help you stop that mob from grabbing an objective, especially if the obliterators get charged after!

obviously if you need anti-tank drop them behind a tank, use the twin-linked meltas. if they scatter too far just use a multi-melta!

currently i use a landraider, a vindicator, and a squad of two obliterators. i'm about to toss the vindicator because its failed me too many times. the tactical precision of obliterators is far too useful to not have around. havocs barely seem worth it. if you drop them in the wrong spot they will probably be spending a few turns trying to get to a good spot, but possibly by then the target you are going for is already gone!

i would rather have 2 twin-linked melta gun shooting the back of a leaman russ rather than 4 lascannons shooting the front of one.

Sneezypanda wrote:ok ok ok, i've had enough of you guys bashing the land raider. the land raider works wonderfully for my bezekers. havocs barely seem worth it. if you drop them in the wrong spot they will probably be spending a few turns trying to get to a good spot, but possibly by then the target you are going for is already gone!

i would rather have 2 twin-linked melta gun shooting the back of a leaman russ rather than 4 lascannons shooting the front of one.

Ok ok ok , I've had enough of you guys bashing the havocs. The havocs work wonderfully for my army. Land raiders barely seem worth it, if you drop it in the wrong spot it will probably be spending a few turns trying to get a good spot, but possibly by then the target you are going for is already gone!

See how that works? =p

Also, part of your theory about havocs is messed up. You would almost never take lascannons. They don't punch vehicles that well compared to melta(which you would take on your regular csm squads), and they are crazy expensive for what they do. Havocs are best with either 4 autocannons (ridiculous amount of str7 48"range 4ap shots for the price) or 2ac+2ml for versatility. Autocannons and missile launchers work pretty well against either tanks or hordes making them very versatile and getting a lot of shots compared to oblits which only get one.

well, its working for my bezerkers :p

i understand that auto cannons and missile launchers are good against light vehicles and anti-hoard.but i think we are just playing completely different lists. being a khorne player i don't really need to worry about infantry, so i need to spend my heavy support options to take out vehicles. i would love to see a sample army list!

Sneezypanda wrote:well, its working for my bezerkers :p

i understand that auto cannons and missile launchers are good against light vehicles and anti-hoard.but i think we are just playing completely different lists. being a khorne player i don't really need to worry about infantry, so i need to spend my heavy support options to take out vehicles. i would love to see a sample army list!

I replaced the words in your opening paragraph with havoc instead of land raider because you got upset about people saying land raiders werent useful and you thought they were. Then the very next thing you say is that havocs arent very good. So don't get upset when people say their opinion =p.

Autocannons are good up to AV13 and the mass of shots increases your chances of hurting vehicles greatly. Missiles can pen av14 but don't have the mass of shots to help but has the advantage of insta-killing toughness 4 and below and the anti-horde missile. So "light vehicle" is a bit incorrect unless you consider anything below av14 light.

Autocannons/plasma guns are only good for one thing IMO. Str of 7...... cause Grandfather Nurgle LOVVVESS those 7's...heh.

__________________

Chaos Hvy support...no matter what the list, will prob. be the next heavily invested Chaos FoC after Troops.

What one picks in hvy support will most likely be complimentary or supplimentary to the abilities of the troops chosen.

Any unit in the hvy support can 'work'.
To answer the OP again: there are alternatives to Oblit/lash. They might not be as flexible or as synergetic as Oblit/lash, but they are functional. It's highly dependent on what's killing what, with repsect to troops/heavys.

My 7 Cents.

Halsfield wrote:
I replaced the words in your opening paragraph with havoc instead of land raider because you got upset about people saying land raiders werent useful and you thought they were. Then the very next thing you say is that havocs arent very good. So don't get upset when people say their opinion =p.

Autocannons are good up to AV13 and the mass of shots increases your chances of hurting vehicles greatly. Missiles can pen av14 but don't have the mass of shots to help but has the advantage of insta-killing toughness 4 and below and the anti-horde missile. So "light vehicle" is a bit incorrect unless you consider anything below av14 light.

i didn't say they were bad per-say :/ sorry, the other forums i've been on haven't talked too highly of havocs. being a khorne player also makes them a horrible unit for me.

Havocs horrible for a Khorne player? God's balls man! How else are you going to get your meltapower in? 4 Meltaguns, MoK and a Champ with a Powerfist. Bam, instant anti-tank and it is great in close combat!

Don't forget the chain sword/axe attachments on the ends of those melta guns.

Chainmeltas!

My 7 Cents.

I glue my meltaguns to my Chaos Space Marine models crotch then have him hold his pistol and CC weapon in either hand.

CROTCH MELTA

why take heavy weapons on havocs? they are chaos marines with 4 special weapons, spam flamers or meltas, stick em in arhino and call it a day. The only reason you would EVER take basic marines is for scoring.

Scoring is a big issue.
The issue can be turned around, why pay essentially the same price for CSM and not score.
The loss of 2 special weapons isn't a huge problem, you can always get a combi-weapon on the champ.

No, the REAL reason you'd want to take havocs is for the multiple heavy weapons, or if you do go with special weapons, you can get more than one but not needing to be a 10 man squad.

But IMO both those reasons are kind of lame when you could just get more troop squads...

My 7 Cents.

or get one five man SIX man squad of each, similarly equiped and stick them in the same rhino?

Oh, and Sanctjud, Puppy God of Corruption Best export of Japan you really dont need to type "My 7 Cents" if it's in your sig, and you might as well make it green while your at it.

Dude if i were khorne I would have 2 whole Land Raider's full of Zerker's getting sent down you'r load and one on a Juggernaught man that is a cool model.

Khorne Demon Prince's are cool too bad they can't have Warptime that would be killer.

I'm new to the forum, hence the 'My 7 Cents', double the penetration power. Plus, 14 cents don't hurt, and still Nurgle's favored number.
________________

@Shadowbrand:
Just a note, Juggys can't get into rides, they are too scared of cages and such.
Only way to run Juggy lord is on foot, sadly.

My 7 Cents.

Aww, for some reason I want to do that, and scream "MORTAL KOMBAT!" when he charges Tau firewarrior's or gretchen.