Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm thinking about taking a dreadyy or a LR

Havoc's maybe and I already have 3 old Iron Warrior's with Auto Cannon's.

So my Tourny list will be Iron Warrior/EC

Night Lords wrote:Considering 95% of the time it's AT fire shooting the havocs (theyre almost the only things that can keep in range with them, aside from snipers), youre still only going to get that 4+ cover save. The difference is havocs will have 8+ wounds instead of 3, and cost far, far less.

No body will do this. The AT fire will the aiming at your transports. Havocs will get all the obscene amounts of long ranged anti-infantry fire, like battlecannon, plasma cannon, scatter lasers, multi-lasers, heavy boltets, barbed stranglers and everything else that isnt good for killing tanks but great at killing T4 infantry. If you lose two havocs you also have to start taking morale tests, which will see them running, and at the very least make them unable to use their weapons for a turn or two. Never discount fearlessness, especially when dealing with heavy weapons.

Regwon wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Considering 95% of the time it's AT fire shooting the havocs (theyre almost the only things that can keep in range with them, aside from snipers), youre still only going to get that 4+ cover save. The difference is havocs will have 8+ wounds instead of 3, and cost far, far less.

No body will do this. The AT fire will the aiming at your transports. Havocs will get all the obscene amounts of long ranged anti-infantry fire, like battlecannon, plasma cannon, scatter lasers, multi-lasers, heavy boltets, barbed stranglers and everything else that isnt good for killing tanks but great at killing T4 infantry. If you lose two havocs you also have to start taking morale tests, which will see them running, and at the very least make them unable to use their weapons for a turn or two. Never discount fearlessness, especially when dealing with heavy weapons.

With icon and champ, theres a 0.6% chance they will run, or in other words, once every 144 times.

As for those things, marines will still shrug them off better than oblits can, or theyre just not a concern (heavy bolters might kill 1 marine...maybe).

So now you have to increase their points cost to make up for their deficiencies. It means that 8 havocs with autocannon cost basically the same as 3 oblits. Wasnt one of your major sticking points that they cost less? The same points for something that is only good against light vehicles and light infantry? That doesnt sound that that good a deal any more.

That's one way of looking at it.

But if you keep things really cheap like:

6 guys 3-4 hvy weapons and stick them in a high building out of the way of anything else.
160-180 points that will either be ignored by the enemy because it's not scoring, or be taking alot of shooting, but having cover saves is a nice thing.

/shrug. Not eveybody will be satified with anything in our Hvy support as there are many options of death dealing.

I usually would take oblits and defilers over anything else in the hvy slot at the very least because they are unique to chaos.
Vindis, LR, Havocs, Preds all 'work' with varying degrees of cost effectiveness.

Basically...look at your troops, they come first. Then purchase hvy support with respect to supporting the troops. Very basic, and prob. doesn't answer the question in any satisfactory way, but there's no other answer.

Personal taste comes into the matter.
More bodies/less bodies.
More armor/less armor.
Long range/short range.
Flexibility/Focused roles.

Answers only the individual can answer.

My 7 Cents.

I think it's the mark of a good codex that Codex: Chaos Space Marines has so many live options in the Heavy Support section of its army list.

I have to admit that I love my Havoc squads precisely because they are made from Devastator Marines with Berzerker Helmets.

Regwon wrote:So now you have to increase their points cost to make up for their deficiencies. It means that 8 havocs with autocannon cost basically the same as 3 oblits. Wasnt one of your major sticking points that they cost less? The same points for something that is only good against light vehicles and light infantry? That doesnt sound that that good a deal any more.

10 points doesnt suddenly make them overpriced.

Eh... I wouldn't say good.
Though I defend the 'carebear' approach to things my kneejerk reaction is to say:

/mini rant

DaemonPrince.
Plague marines.
CSM.
Rhino's.
Oblits.

All you will ever need in the CSM Codex.

Fast attack? What Fast Attack?
Elites? Non-fearless termies reduced to suicidal deepstrikes and chosen that only have one viable way of using (mech).
Troops: Lesser daemons? Really?
Thousand Sons? Nerf stick Check.
Quadruple costing Blastmaster?
Independent characters? What are those?

Spawn...really, no... I mean seriously..?

Then we have hvy support...
Oblits = plasma cannons and multi-meltas... kings of killing almost everything in 40K.
Havocs = non scoring CSM...think about it... you have hvy weapons sure, but you could just get a scoring unit with special weapons...eat up a Troop choice instead of a heavy.
Defilers/land raiders have identity crisis... one's also too big for cover while the other is missing out on so many things the loyalists get.
Pred Chassis's were nerfed by 5th ed.

That's the normal stuff that people have issues with as I see it with the CSM codex. I realldy wouldn't say it's a 'good' codex, esp. loss of legions...the lack of smurf love with our named characters..

/mini rant off.

My 7 Cents.

I agree with a lot of your points. However, I feel that you are not taking into consideration an army that can work together at less points and achieve the same goal, or even do it more efficiently.

I agree that there are some completely useless units that are outperformed by another unit in nearly every way (Lord -> Prince, Possessed -> Zerkers). However, certain units like Dreadnoughts and Raptors get shunned when they provide a very unique role.

Raptors can jump over impassable terrain, get to the rear armour of a vehicle (against Wave serpents theyre great), and can charge a unit 18" away.

Dreadnoughts are cheap armour that simply cant be ignored even if they do go crazy. 100 points for an armour 12 walker is a great choice in my army because I have so many big dangerous things at such a cheap cost that everything is expendable yet deadly.

Oblits have multimeltas and plasma cannons, yes, but I dont need either of them if the rest of my army already does a great job with dealing with those units. I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more? What I need to do is to slow the enemy down so I can outmaneuver them with my fast army. So I take autocannon havocs to easily destroy transports and then the game is in my control.

Theres a difference between taking the single best unit and the best list. In my opinion simply taking the single best option doesnt get you the best results overall.

Regwon wrote:So now you have to increase their points cost to make up for their deficiencies. It means that 8 havocs with autocannon cost basically the same as 3 oblits. Wasnt one of your major sticking points that they cost less? The same points for something that is only good against light vehicles and light infantry? That doesnt sound that that good a deal any more.

That, and 1 failed 3+ armor save often has you losing one of the heavy weapons you paid 20+ points for. Oblits *are* more resilient than Havocs, and if your opponent is forced to use his long range AT to take them out, your rhinos are getting free turns of movement.

That's the normal stuff that people have issues with as I see it with the CSM codex. I realldy wouldn't say it's a 'good' codex, esp. loss of legions...the lack of smurf love with our named characters..

It's not that CSM is a bad codex, although it tends to have trouble with a variety of fast, long-range mech armies (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Skimmer IG), it's that its most viable options are so few that any competitive list looks really bland and generic. Most attempts at creativity with the Chaos Codex get pummeled in a mirror match against the bland, generic elements.

I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more?

That's not nearly enough meltas for a 5th ed game of 1750+ points unless you have a significant amount of alternative AT fire, like 3x Vet squads with 9x meltas in 3x Vendettas with 9x lascannons. And it's quite possible that you do if you're taking minimal Havoc squads with ACs, but 8 meltas is far under the bar.

Yeah i think they were like Fast Attack gak I FORGOT TO THrOW IN FAST ATTACK QUICK PUT THIS IN

Daemon Princes don't have access to non-psychic shooting, Terminator Armour, Personal Icons, Steeds of Chaos, or Daemon Weapons, and aren't Independent Characters. Lords are better at what they do, which is bolster squads, and Daemon Princes are better at what they do, which is provide a Monstrous Creature.

Likewise Possessed and Berzerkers: Possessed are all about providing an accompanying Independent Character with Fearless, an Invulnerable unit, cheap Daemon hosts, customizable Icons, and Daemonkin rules. If you use them instead of Berzerkers for the role of assaulting objectives, then you're using them wrong. Likewise if you let Greater Daemons possess your Skull Champions, or you have your Sorcerer accompany your Berzerkers, then you're wasting your Berzerkers on a role better filled by Possessed. They're also better for accompanying Kharn, thanks to their invulnerable save, and his ability to nuke vehicles, and they don't take up a Troops choice that could be better filled by more flexible Chaos Space Marines.

Dreadnoughts are shunned because people misunderstand their rules. Let's not go into that though...

Raptors, well, basically what Night Lords said. They can do that 18" charge without a Land Raider, which is something many people underestimate. Plus their ability to carry Melta Guns means they're very well suited to attacking and cracking transports and bunkers and similar.

Chosen, just to go into them, work very nicely either as infiltrators with heavy shooting armaments like an Autocannon and four Plasma Guns, besides tank-hunting with Melta Guns, or acting as a beacon for Terminators, Lesser Daemons, and Obliterators to Deep Strike on target. You can double-down on Havocs with them, having up to six (6!) units roaming around with 4+ special weapons.

Defilers have an improved version of Extra Armour, have Smoke Launchers to protect their advance, a Battlecannon to make them impossible to ignore, and are great at pouncing on enemy units, as their speed and agility lets them move parallel to the enemy as well as simply closing with them. As a bullet-magnet, they are superb.

Land Raiders likewise have the opportunity to take Daemon Possession, a range of pintle-mounted weapons, with Twin-Linked ordinary weapons to make the lower BS practically irrelevant, and you can take more of them than loyalist Space Marines. When I've used them I find that they're best sitting back and pegging enemy transports with Twin-Linked Lascannons, and then enemy troops with Havoc Launcher and Heavy Bolters, until you can launch them forwards to mop up the remains. The best part is that their sheer size means that you can hide Rhinos with troops behind them, ready to capture objectives later in the game.

sourclams wrote:

I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more?

That's not nearly enough meltas for a 5th ed game of 1750+ points unless you have a significant amount of alternative AT fire... but 8 meltas is far under the bar.

BS. Even though I have alternative AT fire, having 4 squads with 2 meltas each is hardly below the bar. Thats over 1000 points (over half the list) of basic troops with the maximum number of meltas each. Seeing as the only way to really up the amount of meltas is through havocs and chosen (both of which would be wasted points), I fail to see how thats not enough as is. You cannot have an entire army of meltas because you will get destroyed by anything thats quick. You'll never be able to catch up to eldar, nor will you be able to do anything to gun line armies. You need lascannons and autocannons (and maybe missles, I dont like them) in the back taking down key threats to allow your boys to move up the field.

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

Night Lords wrote:

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

Deep Striking is the idea with this. Appear behind an LR and it's dead. Icons help, as do good scatter rolls I will admit though.

I like Deep Strike.

That said, I find it only really works when the enemy does not already have their army on the board, because if you hold units back to Deep Strike then you're essentially handicapping yourself that many points until they show up. Barring special rules like Tigurius' Gift of Prescience, you're pretty unsure of when they'll show up, and you have to plan for both contingencies.

In the meantime, you have to fight the enemy with one hand tied behind your back, and hope that the time your Obliterators could have spent shooting at the enemy is somehow made up when they do appear. And that's ignoring the risk of non-Icon enabled drops.

I've found that about three turns of shooting a Land Raider with four Lascannons is about as effective, and much more reliable, than hoping your Obliterators will drop in turn 3, burn the Land Raider with Melta weapons, and then survive the ensuing assault or counter-melta fire (since they're conveniently dropped into Melta range...).

You really need to load up on concurrent units like Terminators, Possessed, Chosen, and Lesser Daemons: The Terminators/Possessed/Chosen to carry an Icon to make their Deep Strike reliable, and Lesser Daemons to provide a shooting and assault screen for the Obliterators to do their thing with being where you opponent wants them.

Night Lords wrote:

BS. Even though I have alternative AT fire, having 4 squads with 2 meltas each is hardly below the bar. Thats over 1000 points (over half the list) of basic troops with the maximum number of meltas each. Seeing as the only way to really up the amount of meltas is through havocs and chosen (both of which would be wasted points), I fail to see how thats not enough as is. You cannot have an entire army of meltas because you will get destroyed by anything thats quick. You'll never be able to catch up to eldar, nor will you be able to do anything to gun line armies. You need lascannons and autocannons (and maybe missles, I dont like them) in the back taking down key threats to allow your boys to move up the field.

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

IF you have sufficient anti-tank then 8 meltas is enough, but arent you running havocs with autocannon? so that means your only way to deal with AV13+ vehicles is through those 8 meltas. I would hardly say that that is enough anti-tank. At the very least its going to take you a couple of turns to get into melta range, presuming you move all your scoring units up the board so that they dont just get shot out of their transports. In the meantime theres going to be all sorts of nastyness coming your way.

Also, lots of armies are taking transports these days, so they they can get troops closer to objectives. So if your opponent is driving his transport hell-for-leather at your objective then it is quite likely that at some point hes going to be within 12" of your oblits. Remember you also cant target units inside transports, even though they can still score, so destroying the transport become a top priority. At that range 3 multi-meltas completely outclass every other form of anti-tank available to CSM. Then there will even be plasma cannon to deal with anything that falls out next turn.

Nurglitch wrote:I like Deep Strike.

That said, I find it only really works when the enemy does not already have their army on the board, because if you hold units back to Deep Strike then you're essentially handicapping yourself that many points until they show up. Barring special rules like Tigurius' Gift of Prescience, you're pretty unsure of when they'll show up, and you have to plan for both contingencies.

In the meantime, you have to fight the enemy with one hand tied behind your back, and hope that the time your Obliterators could have spent shooting at the enemy is somehow made up when they do appear. And that's ignoring the risk of non-Icon enabled drops.

I've found that about three turns of shooting a Land Raider with four Lascannons is about as effective, and much more reliable, than hoping your Obliterators will drop in turn 3, burn the Land Raider with Melta weapons, and then survive the ensuing assault or counter-melta fire (since they're conveniently dropped into Melta range...).

You really need to load up on concurrent units like Terminators, Possessed, Chosen, and Lesser Daemons: The Terminators/Possessed/Chosen to carry an Icon to make their Deep Strike reliable, and Lesser Daemons to provide a shooting and assault screen for the Obliterators to do their thing with being where you opponent wants them.

Whats wrong with giving an icon to some plague marines or berzerkers. They can hold them just as well. That said deepstiking my oblits have never done me any favours. I think its an option but not one that should be used often. However, a squad of 6 havocs with lascannon almost the same as 3 oblits, but dont have 2+ armour saves, 5+ inv saves, arent fearless and can only use one gun. They do have one extra lascannon though. Overall i dont think that its worth it. You have to pay extra points to make sure that the havocs dont run away if they get shot at and they die faster anyway.

I like my Havocs. I use the same configuration up to 1500 points in all my games ...

5 Havocs, 3 Melta, 1 Flamer in a Rhino ... 145 pts.
or
5 Havocs, 3 Flamer, 1 Melta in a Rhino ... 135 pts.
or
5 Havocs, 2 Flamer, 2 Melta in a Rhino ... 140 pts. ( my favorite )

Mobile, efficient Now, this works well depending on what else you field but I use two or three squads of them. The only problem with multiple Rhinos is kill points ... but it's your opponents problem too if you take out their tanks and they can't touch you anymore.

I'm not too worried about scoring troops ... you can always take PMs to fill in your list.

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:

I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more?

That's not nearly enough meltas for a 5th ed game of 1750+ points unless you have a significant amount of alternative AT fire... but 8 meltas is far under the bar.

BS. Even though I have alternative AT fire, having 4 squads with 2 meltas each is hardly below the bar. Thats over 1000 points (over half the list) of basic troops with the maximum number of meltas each.

Then you don't play the same people I do. I ran mech IG versus a chaos player with nine oblits, two Tzeentch princes, and four (five?) squads of minimal Plague Marines with 2 meltas each and blew him off the table in an Annihilation scenario.

I often play Chaos Marines with 9x Termicide and max meltas spread across my Rhino squads, plus Oblits, and it still doesn't feel like enough against certain good players with good 5th ed lists. The bar is far, far higher than 8 meltaguns.

Your statement about spending 1000 points to get 8 meltaguns exemplifies my viewpoint perfectly; you can't dedicate 1,000 points of your list to any AV13/14 that you might encounter and only have 8 meltaguns. The other 32 men are worthless until you bust the Land Raider open. Termicides and even Rhinos with combi meltas are a cheaper way to double up on AT fire, and necessary in 5th ed against good mech lists. Melta density is just as important as melta quantity, and basic CSM lack both. They're backup AT, not primary AT. Both are necessary.

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

Oblits are often in range due to rhino-borne icons and deep strike. Oblits aren't exempt from the 'work together to gain synergy' that we're attributing to the rest of the HS choices. In my experience, Deep Strike is the best way to run them unless you're facing off against predominantly AV10-12.

IF you have sufficient anti-tank then 8 meltas is enough, but arent you running havocs with autocannon? so that means your only way to deal with AV13+ vehicles is through those 8 meltas. I would hardly say that that is enough anti-tank. At the very least its going to take you a couple of turns to get into melta range, presuming you move all your scoring units up the board so that they dont just get shot out of their transports. In the meantime theres going to be all sorts of nastyness coming your way.

Also, lots of armies are taking transports these days, so they they can get troops closer to objectives. So if your opponent is driving his transport hell-for-leather at your objective then it is quite likely that at some point hes going to be within 12" of your oblits. Remember you also cant target units inside transports, even though they can still score, so destroying the transport become a top priority. At that range 3 multi-meltas completely outclass every other form of anti-tank available to CSM. Then there will even be plasma cannon to deal with anything that falls out next turn.

QFT+3.

It's really turned into more of a debate then helping me. ;(

If you consider the various opinions being promoted here, and weigh them against each other, then you may find it helps you.

@Shadowbrand:

Original Post

Lately my Obliterator's have failed me. Deep striking to their death's failing to hit thing's with their wep's I always field a defiler, but alone it isn't very competitive.

I am thinking of having Havoc's with launcher's or fielding my Land Raider.

Are their alternative's to the Lash/Oblit list, or was i foolhardy for making a Cult marine army?

Oblits failed you… could it have been you failed the oblits?
Why are you deepstriking, they should be walking from your deployment zone sowing death with plasma cannon fire then multimelta.
Leave the deepstrike special weapons to terminators.

Havocs with Launchers: flexible but highly meh.
Land Raider: what are you transporting in it? It’s a hvy support, but it’s main purpose is to transport a squad into combat, gun boat second……
The fire power of the LR is not gonna be as useful as the three Oblits’ firepower.

This whole ‘discussion’ has been about alternatives to Lash/Oblit……

In addition… what’s the rest of your list, what points, how many oblits are you giving up… what happen to the oblits.
If you don’t give us more information, we can only discuss things in over simplifications.

My 7 Cents.

I have 6 dreads in my Chaos army. Though I may remodel them to have x2 CCW, rather than an assortment of shooty things as they do now.

I have 5, 5 man Havoc units. One with 4 AC, 1 with 4 HB, 1 with 3 LC and 1 PC, and one with 2 flamers and 2 plasma guns (I ran out of heavy weapons at this point ).

Since my 8 CSM troop squads are only 7 men strong, it means I can sub in some HW or extra special weapons in regular sized games if I want to.

I only have 2 oblits as while they are nice I have other models to take their place, rather than spending more £ on some more Oblits, I can use and convert the stuff I already have.

I have to admit not being a big player, and my CSM army has never seen combat, so I have no idea how well it would do in an actual game.

Sanctjud wrote:
/mini rant

DaemonPrince.
Plague marines.
CSM.
Rhino's.
Oblits.

All you will ever need in the CSM Codex.

Fast attack? What Fast Attack?
Elites? Non-fearless termies reduced to suicidal deepstrikes and chosen that only have one viable way of using (mech).
Troops: Lesser daemons? Really?
Thousand Sons? Nerf stick Check.
Quadruple costing Blastmaster?
Independent characters? What are those?

Spawn...really, no... I mean seriously..?

Then we have hvy support...
Oblits = plasma cannons and multi-meltas... kings of killing almost everything in 40K.
Havocs = non scoring CSM...think about it... you have hvy weapons sure, but you could just get a scoring unit with special weapons...eat up a Troop choice instead of a heavy.
Defilers/land raiders have identity crisis... one's also too big for cover while the other is missing out on so many things the loyalists get.
Pred Chassis's were nerfed by 5th ed.

That's the normal stuff that people have issues with as I see it with the CSM codex. I realldy wouldn't say it's a 'good' codex, esp. loss of legions...the lack of smurf love with our named characters..

/mini rant off.

I fully agree with you... as does the other guy who plays chaos in my gaming group. Everyone else is confused when i burst into cursing when i read the SM codex T_T

i play no competitive, and am limited by models, but my havocs have served me well. They aren't a core part of my army and truthfully, they could be swapped out for something more competitive/better suited for the role, but... they've earned their place. I basically wanted a squad to sit back and shoot anything up to AV13, infantry, and transports. 6 mang squad with 2 ML/2 AC. For 20 points more i could get 2 oblits, but they have gotten no where near the kill ratio sitting back. The oblits were godly for "icon Deepstrike/melta the trukk/next one twinlinked flamer the boyz that survived", but they aren't going to sit on the other side of the map and be as effective. Pred with Lascannon sponsons is something else i am a fan of, but thats honestly because i am not the proud owner of a Landraider. True the Pred doesn't seem half as tank as a space marine tank...well... should be? But its soaked up missle/lascannon shots and spat hot death at transports, so it works for me.

Again- only a casual player here. But a good hint for other casuals...

sourclams wrote:Termicides and even Rhinos with combi meltas are a cheaper way to double up on AT fire, and necessary in 5th ed against good mech lists. Melta density is just as important as melta quantity

If you want, nay, if you NEED to take out a vehicle, don't trust 1 lascannon. dont trust 1 melta gun. Try to make sure your AT fire can focus on one vehicle at a time, and mech lists will become alot less painful than they can be!

Well I guess I am being too fussy my Die failed me not the Oblit's.

Right now i'm running

Daemon Prince with Warp time

3 9 man Noise Marine Sqaud's with sonic blaster's Doom siren's and power wep's/fist, made moblie with Rhino's.

A Chaos Dreadyy with a plasma cannon or Multi-Melta

And 3-4 Oblit's in higher point game's I use 2 pair's

A Defiler with reaper and cc arm

My Oblit's just have had some bad luck, A gunline though sound's neat. I have used them to that effect before, But Flanking them with my Prince and Summoning in the Oblit's with Tled Melta gun's and BOOM no more Tank!

*I'm lazy and did'nt post the point's I know bad Shadow But I can edit them in anytime, I usually play 1700-1500 which is what my army is mostly centered around*

sourclams wrote:

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:

I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more?

That's not nearly enough meltas for a 5th ed game of 1750+ points unless you have a significant amount of alternative AT fire... but 8 meltas is far under the bar.

BS. Even though I have alternative AT fire, having 4 squads with 2 meltas each is hardly below the bar. Thats over 1000 points (over half the list) of basic troops with the maximum number of meltas each.

Then you don't play the same people I do. I ran mech IG versus a chaos player with nine oblits, two Tzeentch princes, and four (five?) squads of minimal Plague Marines with 2 meltas each and blew him off the table in an Annihilation scenario.

I often play Chaos Marines with 9x Termicide and max meltas spread across my Rhino squads, plus Oblits, and it still doesn't feel like enough against certain good players with good 5th ed lists. The bar is far, far higher than 8 meltaguns.

Your statement about spending 1000 points to get 8 meltaguns exemplifies my viewpoint perfectly; you can't dedicate 1,000 points of your list to any AV13/14 that you might encounter and only have 8 meltaguns. The other 32 men are worthless until you bust the Land Raider open. Termicides and even Rhinos with combi meltas are a cheaper way to double up on AT fire, and necessary in 5th ed against good mech lists. Melta density is just as important as melta quantity, and basic CSM lack both. They're backup AT, not primary AT. Both are necessary.

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

Oblits are often in range due to rhino-borne icons and deep strike. Oblits aren't exempt from the 'work together to gain synergy' that we're attributing to the rest of the HS choices. In my experience, Deep Strike is the best way to run them unless you're facing off against predominantly AV10-12.

IF you have sufficient anti-tank then 8 meltas is enough, but arent you running havocs with autocannon? so that means your only way to deal with AV13+ vehicles is through those 8 meltas. I would hardly say that that is enough anti-tank. At the very least its going to take you a couple of turns to get into melta range, presuming you move all your scoring units up the board so that they dont just get shot out of their transports. In the meantime theres going to be all sorts of nastyness coming your way.

Also, lots of armies are taking transports these days, so they they can get troops closer to objectives. So if your opponent is driving his transport hell-for-leather at your objective then it is quite likely that at some point hes going to be within 12" of your oblits. Remember you also cant target units inside transports, even though they can still score, so destroying the transport become a top priority. At that range 3 multi-meltas completely outclass every other form of anti-tank available to CSM. Then there will even be plasma cannon to deal with anything that falls out next turn.

QFT+3.

Honestly, I have no idea what youre trying to argue here.

Im sorry, but so? Youre saying oblits cant even win, as if theyre the best option, which is exactly what Im arguing against. Good for you, you won a game against someone else...congrats?

Transports coming at me and moving within 12 inches of oblits...? How did they even get that far? Did other armies magically get to take 15 transports that 8 meltas, prince, dreads, etc. cannot destroy?? Why is it that a predator with 2 autocannons and 2 lascannons for less than the cost of 2 oblits cannot take them out? What about my 150 point, 8 autocannon shots havocs?

You talk as if the Tzeentch Prince is optimal...talk about waste of points.

Everything in my list can easily destroy transports. Everything. The difference is my options are far cheaper than yours so I get many more units, which can cover more ground. Oblits dont do it better because theyre slow and multimelta is useless unless your opponent willingly gets within the range of 6-12"-> and raptors do it better anyways! Theyre guaranteed to melta anything within 18", whereas oblits only do it if they roll a 6. They also cost more so thats less shots per point for the same guns, and are worse in CC (so you better hope you actually destroy it with those 3 shots).

After my meltas shoot, they charge and destroy the tank with a fist and continue on. Terminators shoot, and then theyre useless. Im not saying theyre bad, Im saying its 105 points you dont need to spend if you have enough guns elsewhere.

8 melta guns, backed up with 8 autocannons and 4 lascannons is hardly a joke. Then you have every unit being a threat in CC to vehicles and it gets even better.

Night Lords wrote:
You talk as if the Tzeentch Prince is optimal...talk about waste of points.

You're playing 4th ed.

Everything in my list can easily destroy transports. Everything.

What in your list kills Land Raiders? 6 meltaguns. The havocs and your laspreds don't do squat.

Oblits dont do it better because theyre slow and multimelta is useless unless your opponent willingly gets within the range of 6-12"-> and raptors do it better anyways!

Deep Strike your Oblits off of icons. It's a free alpha strike. And Raptors don't get 3 TL meltaguns, or 3 multimeltas. Quit playing 4th ed.

After my meltas shoot, they charge and destroy the tank with a fist and continue on. Terminators shoot, and then theyre useless. Im not saying theyre bad, Im saying its 105 points you dont need to spend if you have enough guns elsewhere.

5th ed is about forcing the other guy out of his transports before you get forced out of yours. If you're using power fists as transport killers then you've already failed.

8 melta guns, backed up with 8 autocannons and 4 lascannons is hardly a joke. Then you have every unit being a threat in CC to vehicles and it gets even better.

Let's see what other lists bring in 2k points:

Flying Salamanders: 3-4 meltas, 12-14 multimeltas, plus heavy flamers and thunderhammers
Mech Guard: 12-15 meltas, 5-10 plasma cannons, 9-18 lascannons, plus an assortment of autocannons, multilasers, and heavy bolters
Mech Sisters: 12-18 meltas, 4-6 Twin-Linked heavy flamers on fast tank transports, plus even more optional meltas, combimeltas, flamers, and combiflamers
Mech Eldar: 10-15 meltas, 0-3 Fire Prisms or 0-18 scatter lasers, plus even more scatter lasers, shuriken cannons, or bright lances
Mech Chaos with Termicide and Alpha Oblits: 6-10 meltas, 3-9 combi meltas, 9 T/L meltas or multimeltas

These are basic builds for those lists. 8 meltaguns, 8 autocannons (on 10 guys that can't move and must be outside a transport to fire optimally) and 4 lascannons is a complete and utter joke. Quit playing 4th ed.

sourclams wrote:
You're playing 4th ed.

Youre spending 50 points for a spell that may kill 4 guys all game, provided you get into the right situation. The 4+ invul is useless when you can easily play to cover.

Everything in my list can easily destroy transports. Everything.

What in your list kills Land Raiders? 6 meltaguns. The havocs and your laspreds don't do squat.

Hmm, 2 dreadnoughts, 8 meltas will all destroy them...then a Prince, 4 lascannons can still take it down. Even basic CSMs can glance it to death in the worst case scenario. Again, I have no idea what you were trying to prove here.

Deep Strike your Oblits off of icons. It's a free alpha strike. And Raptors don't get 3 TL meltaguns, or 3 multimeltas. Quit playing 4th ed.

Cool, and then you get even fewer shots off per turn and then they get smacked in close combat. TL melta guns on oblits...haha, never used them once. Raptors dont need multimeltas, because they can get the melta bonus better than oblits can.

5th ed is about forcing the other guy out of his transports before you get forced out of yours. If you're using power fists as transport killers then you've already failed.

LOL...Tanks anyone? Or do you keep your guys inside all game because youre afraid of getting out into the line of fire? Pathetic.

Let's see what other lists bring in 2k points:

Flying Salamanders: 3-4 meltas, 12-14 multimeltas, plus heavy flamers and thunderhammers
Mech Guard: 12-15 meltas, 5-10 plasma cannons, 9-18 lascannons, plus an assortment of autocannons, multilasers, and heavy bolters
Mech Sisters: 12-18 meltas, 4-6 Twin-Linked heavy flamers on fast tank transports, plus even more optional meltas, combimeltas, flamers, and combiflamers
Mech Eldar: 10-15 meltas, 0-3 Fire Prisms or 0-18 scatter lasers, plus even more scatter lasers, shuriken cannons, or bright lances
Mech Chaos with Termicide and Alpha Oblits: 6-10 meltas, 3-9 combi meltas, 9 T/L meltas or multimeltas

These are basic builds for those lists. 8 meltaguns, 8 autocannons (on 10 guys that can't move and must be outside a transport to fire optimally) and 4 lascannons is a complete and utter joke. Quit playing 4th ed.

CC, CC, CC, CC, CC. My list, and chaos in general, will slaughter all of them in CC. 28 shots alone that can take out transports on my side, plus assaulting. Wow, surprised that an army with 1/3 the cost for infantry can take more meltas?? Who woulda thought?? Your game is completely based around the one turn where meltas are useful. Your lack of numbers is where youll pay. I find it ironic that you list those armies out with all those guns, yet 1000 points is based around 18 guys that die just as easily to all those big guns.


Dont worry, I used to be ignorant too. I read the Oblits entry and Im like "every gun!? Sold!". Then I realized how much they cost when they dont shoot anymore than a havoc does, for 2x the price. I will take down transports better than anything you have in your list, yet you claim Im the one running a 4th edition list because "5th is all about taking out transports first". That plus the fact that the few men you do have on the field dies just as easily as a marine just makes me laugh. Let me guess, you take plagues for +8 points each too just to make your side of the argument contradict itself some more ?

Clamsy,

What does the Tzeentch Prince gain over the lash prince, aside from the flamer template that takes advantage of 5th edition?

Heeeey, dont be a hater of the Tzeen DP - I love that guy!

I rate the Warptime + Wind of Chaos mix. Rerolling 4+'s and attacks is just tasty! Also as my opponents are Mech'd to the hilt, lash just doesnt carry much punch.

@darkkt:

The '205' Prince is IMO the only Tzeentch Dp I'd ever suggest.
Then there is the 'Crono' Prince, Warp time and mark or not.
Then there's (my fav.) Spartan Prince, with just wings.
__________________

I see Night Lords way of death dealing more of a late game thing.
While sourclams is pushing a more early game damage dealing.
I say both works. Combat is quite decisive, while shooting heavy starts the death tally earlier.

I prefer shooting though, much faster to resolve.

My 7 Cents.