Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2016/05/10 15:04:19
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Why not just take a Nob with a PK? The cost of a mek with a killsaw is 45 points compared to a tankbusta nob which is 48 points, but is also s9 with 1 more attack, a rokket launcha and 2 wounds. I mean I get that armorbane is better then having 1 more point of strength for attacking vehicles, but the Nob is far more versatile and is at least s8 so he can instant death t4 guys he ends up fighting which for 3 points I think is worth it.
The problem is that the Tankbusta Nob does not have a melee weapon to trade for a PK. He only has a rokkit launcha, just like the rest of his unit. The only legal way to give him a PK is to upgrade a Tankbusta with a Tankhammer, then make him a Nob, then give him a PK. 13+15+10+25 = 63 points. Which is ridiculous.
Yes, it's an oversight and you could argue RAI, but that's what it says in the codex.
Let's hope that an Ork FAQ is going to happen soon which will fix this problem (along with several others in the Ork codex).
But wouldn't the nob be treated as he has a close combat weapon, because he has nothing else in his inventory? And in that manner, wouldn't he be able to swap that out for those upgrades?
2016/05/11 00:31:12
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
Let's hope that an Ork FAQ is going to happen soon which will fix this problem (along with several others in the Ork codex).
I'm dreading this considering how much the FAQ hurt us. Next thing we know, mob rule will only work on grots, cybork body stacked with a painboy will lower toughness by 1, the blitza-bommer will only be able to drop bombs off the table, and bosspoles will become a melee weapon.
But hey, here's hoping for the best.
"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted
2016/05/11 00:51:07
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
Since GW has said the the codex FAQ are going to be done in the same manner as the Rule book FAQ, I'd suggest we really tell GW what we want changed in the codex and how we want it change. We stand to make a lot of improvement if the community pushes hard on certain issues.
Armies:
The Iron Waagh: 10,000+ 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-7-1
Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
2016/05/11 02:18:18
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Why not just take a Nob with a PK? The cost of a mek with a killsaw is 45 points compared to a tankbusta nob which is 48 points, but is also s9 with 1 more attack, a rokket launcha and 2 wounds. I mean I get that armorbane is better then having 1 more point of strength for attacking vehicles, but the Nob is far more versatile and is at least s8 so he can instant death t4 guys he ends up fighting which for 3 points I think is worth it.
The problem is that the Tankbusta Nob does not have a melee weapon to trade for a PK. He only has a rokkit launcha, just like the rest of his unit. The only legal way to give him a PK is to upgrade a Tankbusta with a Tankhammer, then make him a Nob, then give him a PK. 13+15+10+25 = 63 points. Which is ridiculous.
Yes, it's an oversight and you could argue RAI, but that's what it says in the codex.
Let's hope that an Ork FAQ is going to happen soon which will fix this problem (along with several others in the Ork codex).
But wouldn't the nob be treated as he has a close combat weapon, because he has nothing else in his inventory? And in that manner, wouldn't he be able to swap that out for those upgrades?
No. He has a ranged weapon, the rokkit launcha. He and the other Tankbustas fight in CC the same way that Shoota Boyz do. He does not have a melee weapon to trade by default, so he cannot take a PK unless you give him a melee weapon first. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd -- for the better.
Cleatus wrote: He has a ranged weapon, the rokkit launcha. He and the other Tankbustas fight in CC the same way that Shoota Boyz do. He does not have a melee weapon to trade by default, so he cannot take a PK unless you give him a melee weapon first. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd -- for the better.
Did anybody think to ask that question? I wasn't looking for the grenade nerf, so I never thought to take a PK with the nob.
2016/05/11 06:01:31
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
Well, i'm glad i've never come to actually buying tankbustas - just used rokkit and BS models for them. The blitza bomber nerf hurts, however, mine is made from a ww2 flyer and is not painted yet, so it can become any plane. Think that just a regular dakkajet will do as a source of -1 to enemy reserves and some mediocre shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/11 06:01:55
2016/05/11 06:09:21
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
No. He has a ranged weapon, the rokkit launcha. He and the other Tankbustas fight in CC the same way that Shoota Boyz do. He does not have a melee weapon to trade by default, so he cannot take a PK unless you give him a melee weapon first. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd -- for the better.
This isn't the only interpretation.
It says clearly in the Tankbusta section that the Nob "may take a weapon from the melee list (with page reference).
In the Melee list, it mentions at the top that the weapon can be changed. But I think the first statement clearly trumps the second. The codex says "may be taken" and I think that trumps our worry that he doesn't have a CC weapon to trade.
More importantly, you can't conga line the VSG now. Actually I think it's worded that if so much as one model is out of range of the VSG's 12" bubble, then the whole unit forfeits the VSG.
YMDC = nightmare
2016/05/11 13:47:27
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
Groan... I was using a vsg to offer extra protection to a blitz brigade parking lot full of lootas, flash gitz and tankbustas.
Only used the list once and really enjoyed it... shame
my vsg was a pimping plasma ball lamp as well.
mean green fightin machine
2016/05/11 13:51:12
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
No. He has a ranged weapon, the rokkit launcha. He and the other Tankbustas fight in CC the same way that Shoota Boyz do. He does not have a melee weapon to trade by default, so he cannot take a PK unless you give him a melee weapon first. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd -- for the better.
This isn't the only interpretation.
It says clearly in the Tankbusta section that the Nob "may take a weapon from the melee list (with page reference).
In the Melee list, it mentions at the top that the weapon can be changed. But I think the first statement clearly trumps the second. The codex says "may be taken" and I think that trumps our worry that he doesn't have a CC weapon to trade.
That's an interesting interpretation. Not how I read it, but I'm not going to get into a rules debate here. Feel free to start a thread in YMDC if you want.
When GW asks for Ork codex specific questions perhaps we can get a clarification.
Never used one, so I'm neutral to this nerf. The things that realy need answering are tankbusta nob weapon swap, the mechanism of Str D being downgraded by ramshakle and if you can swap the warboss in the ork core formation for Grukk of Ghaz (I know it's prety unlikely, but one can still dream).
2016/05/11 14:06:43
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
I think the general rulebook FAQ stated that Ramshackle does indeed downgrade D shots, and that Grukk and Ghaz can't be taken as a Warboss in the Great Waaagh! Band detachment.
2016/05/11 14:24:43
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
Well, I might have to take a second look if that is the case. Still, one minor issue - Da Fixer Uppers and the Mek&Big mek only part. Not game changing, but needs to get fixed.
2016/05/11 19:34:17
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
I may end up snagging one as giving my opponent a -1 to reserves is very tempting (there is a regular who plays KDK ). I am very tempted to try out the new one, to be honest. May not be the best use of points, but I'd like to see how it runs in a game before I really judge it.
0%. I want objectives. For 35 pts, I get an objective secured fast vehicle that can tank shock and reroll dangerous terrain. I can get 4 of these for a blastajet.
2016/05/12 01:28:10
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
I have to agree with Jim. I really only take one flyer at a time, and that's the bomber, and it's never really performed spectacularly, only fairly at best (save for one game where it routinely killed Lieutenants hiden in blobs somehow.)
Better to just go with fast attack and objective grabbing. I wouldn't bother trying to counter other fliers with our fliers, anyway. One of the good things we somehow have is decent anti-air with lootas and traktor kannons.
"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted
2016/05/12 02:25:58
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
I don't have enough money for this, but if I was building a tournament list with unlimited funds I would scrap tankbustas and build Meganobz. You just switch from best to second best.
Each killsaw is 4 S8 Armourbane attacks, or 5 S9 2D6 attacks on the charge. That is no joke, and it's a savage and effective unit against anything it hits for a reasonable price.
S8 + 2d6 AP1 vs AV13 = 26/36 = 72.22~% to Penetrate
S8 Meltabomb w/ Tank Hunters (reroll to Glance) = 1-(5/6) = 1/6
(1/6) * (5/6) = 13.8~%
13.8~% + 83.33~% = 97.22~% to Glance
S8 Meltabomb w/ Tank Hunters (reroll to Pen) = 1-(26/36) = .27~
(.27~) * (.722~) = 20%
20% + 72.22~% = 92.28% to Pen
Average Hull Points dealt in combat by 1 Tankbusta Meltabomb:
( 50% to hit ) * ( 97.22~% to Glance ) = .4861~
( 50% to hit ) * ( 92.28% to Pen ) * ( 1/3 chance to Explode ) * [(1+2+3)/3] = .3076
.7937 Hull Points stripped on average at Init 1 by Tankbusta
1.125 average hull points stripped per turn of combat at initiative 2 by 1 tankbusta with tankhammer that charged that turn
Spoiler:
.5*[.5+(.5*.5)] = .375 per attack
.375 * 3 = 1.125
No chance to explode due to AP3
.83333 average hull points stripped per turn of combat at initiative 2 by 1 tankbusta with tankhammer that did not charge
Spoiler:
.5*[.33+(.66*.33)]=.278 per attack
.278 * 2 = .833
2.148~ Average Hull Points stripped per turn of combat at Initiative 1 by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist
2.98594~ Hull Points stripped per turn of combat at Initiative 1 by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist on the Assault
S8 + 2d6 AP2 vs AV13 = 30/36 = 83.33~% to Glance per hit
S8 + 2d6 AP2 vs AV13 = 26/36 = 72.22~% to Penetrate per hit
Average Hull Points dealt in combat by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist:
( 50% to hit ) * ( 83.33~% to Glance ) = .416~
( 50% to hit ) * ( 72.22% to Pen ) * ( 1/6 chance to Explode ) * [(1+2+3)/3] = .12
.416~ + .12 = .537 Hull Points per attack
.537 * 4 = 2.148~ Hull Points stripped per turn of combat at Initiative 1 by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist
S9 Chainfist (Furious Charge)
S9 + 2d6 AP2 vs AV13 = 33/36 = 91.6~% to Glance per hit
S9 + 2d6 AP2 vs AV13 = 30/36 = 83.33~% to Penetrate per hit
Average Hull Points dealt in combat by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist on the Charge:
( 50% to hit ) * ( 91.6~% to Glance ) = .4583~
( 50% to hit ) * ( 83.33~% to Pen ) * (1/6 chance to Explode) * [(1+2+3)/3] = .138~
.4583~ + .138~ = .59718~ Hull Points per attack
.59718~ * 5 = 2.98594~ Hull Points stripped per turn of combat at Initiative 1 by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist on the Assault
.583 Hull points damaged on average per turn of combat by MAN w/ Powerfist
1.22~ Hull points damaged on average per turn of combat by MAN w/ Powerfist in the Assault
Spoiler:
MANz vs AV13 superheavy walker
S8 Power Fist = .5*.33 chance to Glan = 16.6~% chance to Glance per hit
S8 Power Fist = .5*.16 chance to Pen = 8.3~% chance to Penetrate per hit
Average HP stripped per turn of combat per MAN w/ Powerfist=
.16~ * 3 = .5 Hull Points
( .083~ * 3 ) * .16 * [(1+2+3)/3] = .083 Hull Points
.5 + .083 = .583 Hull points damaged on average per turn of combat by MAN w/ Powerfist
S9 Power Fist = .5*.5 chance to Glan = 25% chance to Glance per hit
S9 Power Fist = .5*.33 chance to Pen = 16.6~% chance to Penetrate per hit
Average HP per turn of combat per MAN w/ Powerfist on charge =
.25 * 4 = 1 Hull Point
(.16~ * 4 ) * .16 * [(1+2+3)/3] = .22~ Hull Pointz
1 + .22~ = 1.22~ Hull points damaged on average per turn of combat by MAN w/ Powerfist in the Assault
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/05/12 03:11:55
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2016/05/12 03:05:52
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
I honestly prefer MANz anyway, when it comes to big game hunting. They're more likely to actually get into CC with the tank if you stick them in a trukk. Leave tankbustas for the lighter tanks that the MANz shouldn't have to bother with.
"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted
2016/05/12 03:36:25
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
BAN wrote: Groan... I was using a vsg to offer extra protection to a blitz brigade parking lot full of lootas, flash gitz and tankbustas.
Only used the list once and really enjoyed it... shame
my vsg was a pimping plasma ball lamp as well.
It still works with vehicles. Just not grants immunity to plasma and haywire any more.
2016/05/12 07:22:51
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I am sad to see our entire codex just boiling down to spamming meganobz.
I have 3 squads of elites in my army assembled/painted
Burnas
Kommandos
Big Choppa Nobs (footslogging, not on bikes)
In my defense I started on the previous codex, back when those units were kinda nice. But getting back in the swing of things, finding out I need 2 squads of 10 tankbustas and 6 MANZ in a trukk to even think about playing is annoying. Meta shifts are difficult in Warhammer compared to say, video games because there is a huge effort into buying and painting. Its a lot of money to switch my entire elite choices, and how long before THAT even goes out the window?
"People say on their first meeting a Man and an Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't care much for what they saw, and shot each other dead."
2016/05/12 07:24:56
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
koooaei wrote: Well, i'm glad i've never come to actually buying tankbustas - just used rokkit and BS models for them. The blitza bomber nerf hurts, however, mine is made from a ww2 flyer and is not painted yet, so it can become any plane. Think that just a regular dakkajet will do as a source of -1 to enemy reserves and some mediocre shooting.
The models I'm currently using as TB's are the same ones I used as Lootas in the last codex. MorkaGorka slugga choppa Boyz with the slugga removed and an IG missile in its place (painted blue of course!). More than any other army Orks lets you get away with "counts as" better than anyone else.
Fighting crime in a future time!
2016/05/12 19:37:16
Subject: Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted 
mean green fightin machine 
