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2020/09/05 09:18:02
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
grouchoben wrote: The change happened quite a while ago, mid-8e if I remember correctly. GW didn't like Mr 2++ bigbird
Yeah, a nice choice for summoning, but they won't have obsec as they're not part of a daemons detachment at that point.
Oh you mean if you combine the impossible robe with warp surge?
Good catch with ObSec. Normally it would not be that important if they just flood the objective, but i had it quite often that they advanced turn one to barely reach a objective in which case ObSec would be mandatory.
2020/09/05 22:00:20
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I have an old(ish) TS army that's been sitting around for awhile, I didn't keep up on the changes the faction got going into 9th and through PA. Me and a couple of my mates are about to run a 'tournament' between the armies we've all got. As the guy who has the most armies, my friend is going to use my TS as his second army to make 8 in the tournament.
So I need to build as good a list I can for/with him and try to get the rundown on how they play in 9th. None of us are expecting them to perform, but it'd be nice to give them a chance (and you never know what they could do).
Anyway, these are the models I have for TS- fully painted too, used to be my pride and joy :
Magnus
Ahriman on disc
Exalted sorcerer box (1 disc, 2 foot)
Demon prince with talons
30 rubrics
30 tzaangors (oh the joy of the tzaangor bomb)
20 cultists
10 occult terminators
9 enlightened with bows
Tzaangor shaman
Rhino
Predator
Land raider
So, is there a decent list hidden anywhere in there? I've also got some khorne zerkers/aos stuff that could be allied, but they're probably no good.
I know that rubrics are ok, princes are still great and a brick of 10 terminators is ruthless. This correct?
And with the changes in PA, which would be best for an army like this? And what do they actually all do?
Well while no top tier army i`d say TS can certainly hold their ground.
You will give up quite some points for the abhor the witch (and most of the time assassinate) secondary, so the list should be able to score good on primaries and secondaries as well.
The good news is, TS got many tools and units to zip around the table, take objectives and hold them.
Our PA book was really good with the different Cults offering nice stuff (mainly Duplicity, Magic and Time Cult) and a few really fantastic strategems.
I would go for something like this:
Cult of Duplicity Battalion:
Ahriman on Disc (still one of the best HQ`s)
Daemon Prince with wings & talons (Dark Matter Crystal relic)
Exaltet on disc (for the extra speed & flexibility, which is great in 9th)
3 x 10 Rubrics (1 can infiltrate with Risen Rubricae, 1 can drive in the Rhino and the other can use Warptime or Sorcerous Facade)
10 Scarab Occult Terminators (good output in shooting and close combat, also great target for psychic buffs)
1 Tzaangor Shaman (New detachments make it hard to get many psykers, as an cheap elite psyker he is quite valuable)
1 Rhino
This is about 1650 points and a solid core to play with, so with the remaining 350 you could go for 4 variants:
1) Kick the Rhino and reduce 1 of the Rubric squads to add Magnus. He is still one hell of a psyker and if the opponent has lots of dakka you could put him into strategic reserves for 2 CP so he survives turn 1 and can then get bully buffed with 3++ & -1 to hit.
2) While they got quite a price increase and suffer from blast, Tzaangors still do their thing and can as well clear an objective as hold it afterwards. T4 with 5++ that can be further buffed and is a solid unit with ObSec and 280 for a full squad with Brayhorn can use Webway Infiltration or Sorcerous Facade and get off that 8" charge. If the Shaman can buff them they become even better and they help you screen your characters together with Rubrics. Enlightened got the worst points increase, but they can help scoring secondaries and get on objectives so 1 squad of 3 would work good in that list, maybe even a second one if you reduce the Tzaangors.
3) If you really want to go psyker heavy you could add another patrol detachment with the 1-2 other exaltet and either 1-2 minimum Tzaangor squads or 1-2 x 10 cultists. Depending on what you take you could add 1-2 x 3 Enlightened for secondaries as well.
4) Adding soup is certainly an option, but not mandatory. Best take would be a Daemon detachment with Nurglings (they are fantastic to grab objectives early on) or maybe horrors.
If your buddy is not that used to play TS and you wanna go for a tournament i`d skip Magnus and go for one of the other options.
The Rhino gives the option to drive a squad Rubric Marines around but while transports with durable troops are good in 9th overall, i would actually kick it because it`s the only vehicle in that list and i wouldn`t bother with the Land Raider or Predator either.
The more troops you got the longer will the characters be able to get screened and to minimise the opponents secondaries they should be kept safe as long as possible.
Since TS no longer keep the smite warpcharge at 5+ you don`t want to go for more than 5 smites. Also there are a few powers you really want to take so with just 4 psykers it gets kinda hard to do many mortal wounds in addition to the most important buffs / debuffs.
Warptime (extra move), Glamour of Tzeentch (-1 to hit), Weaver of Fates (+1 invul), Prescience (+1 to hit), Temporal Manipulation (heal D3 wounds), Gaze of Fate (1 free reroll, especially important for rerolling 1 of two dice with charge rolls or psychic tests) are your buffs you really want to take.
Death Hex (take a units invul away) is always a good take, Diabolic Strength (+2 S & +1 A) is a great buff to get your Prince to 9 S9 attacks when charging / getting charged.
Doombolt (halves 1 units movement, prevents advancing and does D3 mw) is a nice to have gimmick and is one of the 4 psychic powers that can be used to snipe units / characters. The others - Infernal Gaze (3D6, each 4+ is 1 mw) and Tzeentchs Firestorm (9D6, each 6 is 1 mw) are always a good take, especially as smite alternative to do damage and bypass the increasing smite warpcharges.
You get 8-9 casts per turn with your characters + 3-4 casts with the Aspiring Sorcerers, but only from the change discipline and without bonus. If you go for the right relics and WL traits you could get a +1 on 7-8 of these casts. While there is no perfect way of choosing and allocate the powers, i personally go for this most of my games:
Ahriman: Warptime, Prescience, Death Hex or Doombolt
Warlord Exalted Sorcerer Glamour of Tzeentch & Weaver of Fates
Prince: Gaze of Fate & Diabolic Strength
Shaman: Temporal Manipulation
Those are my main detachment psykers, in addition i take a Magic Cult Daemon Prince that has an extra WL trait & relic (Devastating Sorcery & Arcane Focus) for +1 to psychic tests and 1 extra MW each time he does MW in the psychic phase. I run him with Infernal Gaze & Tzeentchs Firestorm, that way he does 4-5 MW on a character each turn or just goes for the Cult Psychic power + Smite which adds up to 10+ MW quite easy if the opponent has a few units too close together.
If you don`t have a second prince you can change the first one for an exalted if you wanna go that route.
So here is my suggestion how i would run Thousand Sons with the models you got:
Duplicity Cult Battalion:
Ahriman on Disk [Warptime, Prescience, Death Hex]
Exaltet Sorcerer [Warlord: High Magister, Weaver of Fates, Glamour of Tzeentch]
Daemon Prince with Wings [Relic: Dark Matter Crystal, Gaze of Fate, Diabolic Strength]
3 x 10 Rubric Marines [Soulreaper Cannons, Boon of Mutation, Doombolt, Tzeentchs Firestorm]
29 Tzaangors with Brayhorn 10 Scarab Occult Terminators [2 Soulreaper Cannons & 2 Hellfire Missile racks Weaver of Fates]
Tzaangor Shaman [Temporal Manipulation]
3 Enlightened
Magic Cult Auxiliary Detachment:
Exalted Sorcerer on Disk [Magister: Devastating Sorcerery, Relic: Arcane Focus, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentchs Firestorm, Astral Blast]
You could reduce the Tzaangors by 7 to take another 3 Enlightened for more flexibility and maybe split them in 2 squads of 11 Tzaangors to sit on objectives or do the same with cultists that are cheaper but less durable. But i like the Tzaangors in Reserve with Webway Infiltration. One squad Rubric Marines can infiltrate on an objective with risen Rubricae and they have quite firepower if you use Infernal fusillade on them, especially when combined with Prescience, reroll 1 and veterans of the long war.
With the teleport power of the duplicity Cult that can be used on all units, the teleport Relic Dark Matter Crystal, the Webway Tzaangors, the deepstriking Terminators, Warptime and fast psykers that list can be played very flexible and threat all corners of the table. Also it does damage in all 3 phases and has good units to flip and hold objectives. Key is to keep your characters alive as they will probably give away lots of secondary points while being important for your plans.
Hope that does help, there are other ways to run you models as well but i feel like that might be a good take, especially for someone new to TS and trying to get most out of the primaries & secondaries.
All is dust!
2020/09/06 19:45:39
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Grotrebel wrote: Well while no top tier army i`d say TS can certainly hold their ground.
You will give up quite some points for the abhor the witch (and most of the time assassinate) secondary, so the list should be able to score good on primaries and secondaries as well.
The good news is, TS got many tools and units to zip around the table, take objectives and hold them.
Our PA book was really good with the different Cults offering nice stuff (mainly Duplicity, Magic and Time Cult) and a few really fantastic strategems.
I would go for something like this:
Cult of Duplicity Battalion:
Ahriman on Disc (still one of the best HQ`s)
Daemon Prince with wings & talons (Dark Matter Crystal relic)
Exaltet on disc (for the extra speed & flexibility, which is great in 9th)
3 x 10 Rubrics (1 can infiltrate with Risen Rubricae, 1 can drive in the Rhino and the other can use Warptime or Sorcerous Facade)
10 Scarab Occult Terminators (good output in shooting and close combat, also great target for psychic buffs)
1 Tzaangor Shaman (New detachments make it hard to get many psykers, as an cheap elite psyker he is quite valuable)
1 Rhino
This is about 1650 points and a solid core to play with, so with the remaining 350 you could go for 4 variants:
1) Kick the Rhino and reduce 1 of the Rubric squads to add Magnus. He is still one hell of a psyker and if the opponent has lots of dakka you could put him into strategic reserves for 2 CP so he survives turn 1 and can then get bully buffed with 3++ & -1 to hit.
2) While they got quite a price increase and suffer from blast, Tzaangors still do their thing and can as well clear an objective as hold it afterwards. T4 with 5++ that can be further buffed and is a solid unit with ObSec and 280 for a full squad with Brayhorn can use Webway Infiltration or Sorcerous Facade and get off that 8" charge. If the Shaman can buff them they become even better and they help you screen your characters together with Rubrics. Enlightened got the worst points increase, but they can help scoring secondaries and get on objectives so 1 squad of 3 would work good in that list, maybe even a second one if you reduce the Tzaangors.
3) If you really want to go psyker heavy you could add another patrol detachment with the 1-2 other exaltet and either 1-2 minimum Tzaangor squads or 1-2 x 10 cultists. Depending on what you take you could add 1-2 x 3 Enlightened for secondaries as well.
4) Adding soup is certainly an option, but not mandatory. Best take would be a Daemon detachment with Nurglings (they are fantastic to grab objectives early on) or maybe horrors.
If your buddy is not that used to play TS and you wanna go for a tournament i`d skip Magnus and go for one of the other options.
The Rhino gives the option to drive a squad Rubric Marines around but while transports with durable troops are good in 9th overall, i would actually kick it because it`s the only vehicle in that list and i wouldn`t bother with the Land Raider or Predator either.
The more troops you got the longer will the characters be able to get screened and to minimise the opponents secondaries they should be kept safe as long as possible.
Since TS no longer keep the smite warpcharge at 5+ you don`t want to go for more than 5 smites. Also there are a few powers you really want to take so with just 4 psykers it gets kinda hard to do many mortal wounds in addition to the most important buffs / debuffs.
Warptime (extra move), Glamour of Tzeentch (-1 to hit), Weaver of Fates (+1 invul), Prescience (+1 to hit), Temporal Manipulation (heal D3 wounds), Gaze of Fate (1 free reroll, especially important for rerolling 1 of two dice with charge rolls or psychic tests) are your buffs you really want to take.
Death Hex (take a units invul away) is always a good take, Diabolic Strength (+2 S & +1 A) is a great buff to get your Prince to 9 S9 attacks when charging / getting charged.
Doombolt (halves 1 units movement, prevents advancing and does D3 mw) is a nice to have gimmick and is one of the 4 psychic powers that can be used to snipe units / characters. The others - Infernal Gaze (3D6, each 4+ is 1 mw) and Tzeentchs Firestorm (9D6, each 6 is 1 mw) are always a good take, especially as smite alternative to do damage and bypass the increasing smite warpcharges.
You get 8-9 casts per turn with your characters + 3-4 casts with the Aspiring Sorcerers, but only from the change discipline and without bonus. If you go for the right relics and WL traits you could get a +1 on 7-8 of these casts. While there is no perfect way of choosing and allocate the powers, i personally go for this most of my games:
Ahriman: Warptime, Prescience, Death Hex or Doombolt
Warlord Exalted Sorcerer Glamour of Tzeentch & Weaver of Fates
Prince: Gaze of Fate & Diabolic Strength
Shaman: Temporal Manipulation
Those are my main detachment psykers, in addition i take a Magic Cult Daemon Prince that has an extra WL trait & relic (Devastating Sorcery & Arcane Focus) for +1 to psychic tests and 1 extra MW each time he does MW in the psychic phase. I run him with Infernal Gaze & Tzeentchs Firestorm, that way he does 4-5 MW on a character each turn or just goes for the Cult Psychic power + Smite which adds up to 10+ MW quite easy if the opponent has a few units too close together.
If you don`t have a second prince you can change the first one for an exalted if you wanna go that route.
So here is my suggestion how i would run Thousand Sons with the models you got:
Duplicity Cult Battalion:
Ahriman on Disk [Warptime, Prescience, Death Hex]
Exaltet Sorcerer [Warlord: High Magister, Weaver of Fates, Glamour of Tzeentch]
Daemon Prince with Wings [Relic: Dark Matter Crystal, Gaze of Fate, Diabolic Strength]
3 x 10 Rubric Marines [Soulreaper Cannons, Boon of Mutation, Doombolt, Tzeentchs Firestorm]
29 Tzaangors with Brayhorn 10 Scarab Occult Terminators [2 Soulreaper Cannons & 2 Hellfire Missile racks Weaver of Fates]
Tzaangor Shaman [Temporal Manipulation]
3 Enlightened
Magic Cult Auxiliary Detachment:
Exalted Sorcerer on Disk [Magister: Devastating Sorcerery, Relic: Arcane Focus, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentchs Firestorm, Astral Blast]
You could reduce the Tzaangors by 7 to take another 3 Enlightened for more flexibility and maybe split them in 2 squads of 11 Tzaangors to sit on objectives or do the same with cultists that are cheaper but less durable. But i like the Tzaangors in Reserve with Webway Infiltration. One squad Rubric Marines can infiltrate on an objective with risen Rubricae and they have quite firepower if you use Infernal fusillade on them, especially when combined with Prescience, reroll 1 and veterans of the long war.
With the teleport power of the duplicity Cult that can be used on all units, the teleport Relic Dark Matter Crystal, the Webway Tzaangors, the deepstriking Terminators, Warptime and fast psykers that list can be played very flexible and threat all corners of the table. Also it does damage in all 3 phases and has good units to flip and hold objectives. Key is to keep your characters alive as they will probably give away lots of secondary points while being important for your plans.
Hope that does help, there are other ways to run you models as well but i feel like that might be a good take, especially for someone new to TS and trying to get most out of the primaries & secondaries.
All is dust!
Wow! thank you man. This is far more detail than I thought I would've gotten, and it's definitely helped me understand the faction now a lot better.
I like the look of the list you gave me, it seems strong. Turns out my mate does have a second prince, so he's going to use that. Made a couple of little changes and I think this is what I'm going to use:
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Cults of the Legion: Cult of Magic
Detachment CP [-2CP]
+ Stratagems +
Relics of the Thousand Sons (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [10 PL, -1CP, 200pts]: Arcane Focus, Devastating Sorcery, Infernal Gateway, Magister, Malefic talon, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Wings
++ Total: [108 PL, 8CP, 1,998pts] ++
So I added that second prince, and due to this dropped the third squad of 10 to a 5 man. The full squad of tzaangors left me with a little room, so I dropped some from there and opted for the second enlightened squad. They're super fragile but they seem great for playing objectives- Didn't realise they had assault weapons! It also means that the tzaangor squad is that beautiful multiple of 9- bound to swing the victory to tzeentch.
What is the way to play with this army though? how do I use the threats of the scarab occult and tzaangors effectively whilst also character screening? And finally, starting with 8CP, how do I ration this? what are the essential stratagems I need to keep in my mind?
The first matchup is against BA and running 15 death company and 16 sang guard. Might be a tough one, especially as my mate has never played TS, but I think MW surplus will seriously thin those squads, and inferno fire will wither the DC to nothing real quick.
I'm thinking of taking the list for a spin myself soon too, It seems really cool to play. Thank you again for the great advice.
I really like that list, that second prince adds a lot extra utility. Only minor things are the 2 missing Soulreaper Cannons for the Scarab Occult Terminators, that S5 AP3 is a neat bonus, especially against Marines. Also the Exalted Sorcerer is on foot, with the other units being so flexible and teleporting around i found that 6" extra movement + fly to be quite worth it. That would be 15 extra points for the Termis and 20 for the Exalted - thats 6 Tzaangors though or 2 just for the Soulreaper Cannons.
Screening is quite challenging if you split your army and try to get to all objectives and hold your own as well. They work great against Gunlines but keeping your characters alive will be a tough task. Personally i take 30 Pink Horrors for that, they live long enough to keep my characters safe for 1-3 turns, then my princes go forward while Rubrics and Scarabs pose as multiple threads.
In this list this will be kinda tricky, especially against those sneaky Bloodies that can reach those poor Sorcerers quite easy and charge after redeploy turn 1 or deepstriking.
Those 25 Rubrics might be enough to screen turn one, but i doubt they can keep that up forever. I would consider deploying the Tzaangors to wrap the characters + at least 1 Rubric squad in this matchup so they can do their thing. They can still be teleported by the Duplicity power or with the DMC later on.
The army can take down the 30 models DC + SG without breaking sweat, but they can whipe a squad Rubrics plus characters as well.
The Enlightened, the Shaman and the small Rubric squad can also help to screen until you dealt with the threads, they just need to be kept at distance long enough.
As soon as the DC & SG is dealt with you can jump the Tzaangors and the 10 Scarabs are coming down turn 2 or 3 wherever you need them.
If you deepstrike your Scarabs try to safe the Gaze of Fate reroll for their charge. The command reroll rerolls both dice, but you want that Gaze reroll for a result like 1,6.
Try to get Prescience on them as well or get a Prince near them. That 3+ S4 can be very swingy and if they make the charge you want that it hurts. ^^
Remember they get +1 to hit for both shooting and CC.
8 CP is tough but TS can manage it, since you will get another 5. I often start with 6-7 and just go for the most important strategems.
The good thing about TS strategems is, that most of the good ones cost just 1 CP so you can stay kinda flexible which ones to use and you get to keep using them in later turns as well.
The most important ones are:
Pregame:
Webway Infiltration (1 CP / 3 CP): Deepstrike Infantry, good option for Tzaangors (not in this matchup though)
Risen Rubricae (1 CP): Infiltrate 1 unit Rubric Marines, fantastic to grab midfield objectives but since you do this before rolling off it`s kinda risky. I do this a lot with 20 Rubrics.
Psychic Phase:
Cabalistic Focus (1 CP): +2 cast if caster has 2 other Psykers around. Great to pull of key powers
The great Sorcerer (1 CP): 1 extra cast, best used on someone with +1 or on that Magic Cult Prince for maximum MW`s
Chaos Familiar (1 CP): Exchange 1 psychic power for 1 from any discipline. Great tool if a key psyker died and you can choose from any disciple. Situational but can safe your ass.
Sorcerous Infusion (1 CP): Heal D3 wounds after a 9+ cast or bring back 1 Rubric / Scarab if there are no wounded models in the unit. Can be used by characters on themselfes. Neat bonus, especially when the sorcerers start hurting themselfes or when this gets you back a 40 points Termi.
Adept of the Immaterium (1 CP): prevents perils, good for wounded characters or on Asprining Sorcerers. Use this for 6,6 peril and use the command reroll for 1,1 perils.
Shooting:
Infernal Fusillade: (1 CP) Shoot twice with Rubrics / Scarab Occult if they did not move. This is bonkers but hard to pull off. Risen Rubricae is a high risk high reward move with this, especially on large squads. Getting 80 shots with full psychic buffs is devastating for anything that is not T8 2+. Even 10 Rubrics can hurt quite a bit.
Veterans of the long war: (1 CP) The classic, +1 to wound, gets even better on large squads and if you combine strats & psychic powers.
Close Combat:
Cycle of Slaughter (2 CP): Tzaangor unit fights a second time. Especially good combined with VotlW (because this only works 1 phase you can / have to cast it again in the combat phase) and / or a Shaman nearby for +1 to hit.
Others:
Indomitable foes (1 CP): Rubrics or Scarabs chosen as target get +1 invul. This can be combined with Weaver of Fates for a neat 3++ and also works with All is Dust, which means against attacks that have 1 dmg but AP 2 or better (power swords, non-overcharged plasma, some indirect weapons) you get an 2++. Combined with Glamour (-1 to hit) this can make a unit Rubrics / Scarabs quite tanky.
Those are the most relevant strategems for this list, there are a few others that can be used as well but are highly situational, too expensive or just not worth the CP at all.
With the exception of Cycle of Slaughter they are all just 1 CP so you can have a good go before CP run out.
Infernal Fusillade is the one that gives the largest damage boost, especially if you stack strats & psychic powers. Don`t use it on 5 Rubrics though.
The healing / prevent perils strategems can somewhat be accomplished by casting Temporal Manipulation, only use those if you would loose that psyker otherwise or have 2+ Psykers to heal. They all have enough wounds to tank at least 1 peril. Special note on Aspiring Sorcerers: If you kill them with peril that is basicly 2D3 MW on your own squad, since his MW spill over and his unit is in 3" to himself so gets another D3 MW if he dies. For that reason use reroll, Gaze of Fate or the anti-peril strat on them, you don`t want to loose 120 points of Terminators for rolling perils. Little trick that you can pull off is allocating the D3 wounds to his unit not the sorcerer, so he survives. GW clarified this is possible in the FAQ.
Will you change army lists or play the same all the time?
2020/09/07 01:09:09
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Yeah, I dropped the 6 tzaangors to get the disc + the double soulreaper. I forgot that a soulreaper on termies is only a 7pt upgrade, and they're probably far more consistent across a game than banking on infernal fusillade for the fire twice (this strat is bolters only, right?)
And yes, lists aren't going to change throughout the tournament so this isn't optimised for BA- plus I should've had the list sorted before I knew matchups lol It'll only matter if the TS progress haha!
I also just realised how good gaze of fate is now that it can be used for so much more than a CP reroll- what a fantastic power.
I hadn't quite grasped the seemingly obscene flexibility of the TS this edition.
For secondaries in the BA matchup;
good idea for while we stand we fight? That'd be ahriman and the two princes who want to get their feet wet but not necessarily fully stuck in, so maybe playing cagey and taking that would be good. However then it would be a very binary game for the BA coming down to either killing those psykers or not, getting abhor the witch+assassinate+denied while we stand we fight points.
How is raise banners in a 6 objective game? The enlightened and the 5 man can sacrifice their shooting without taking too much of a hit. Possibly good
Engage on all fronts is very attractive, although do we get in 4 quarters and stay there? Using the duplicity power to pop into a corner if needs be is a nice flexibility. Or is domination stronger for the TS here?
Against this BA list, assassinate is a given. He's got 5 or 6 characters and they can all get MWd to death.
Finally, mental interrogation/psychic ritual is quite nice on the shaman, no? He doesn't sacrifice powers by doing a psychic action. Given the abundance of characters in my face from the BA, it's probably best for interrogation right?
So against the BA, mission and map dependant, I think I'd take assassinate, mental interrogation, and then engage/WWSWF/banners.
Again thanks so much for the help, kind of jealous my buddy is getting to use this list now
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/07 01:10:32
2020/09/07 07:29:01
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Yeah the strat is bolters only. Don`t forget, the Terminators get to double tap at 24" at all times, even if they moved so they rock 4 shots even without the strategem. Since deepstriking counts as having moved you won`t be able to fusillade them before turn 3-4. But still that extra S and AP is always worth it.
Yeah Gaze of Fate is fantastic. Last game Ahriman failed Prescience 3 times when i really needed it and the reroll safed his casting. That free reroll is just so damn good.
Concerning secondaries, while we stand sounds like win or loose, thats for sure.^^ Might be worth a try but keep in mind they all pack quite a punch in CC, so for me that means i want to get at least 1 prince in CC from turn 2-3, otherwise you could just go for an Exaltet and safe points. With Death to the false emperor a Talon prince gets about 9-10 attacks that shred Primaris.
I play my TS very objective heavy so i end up with engage + raise the banners a lot. It`s very easy to get at least 15 / 30 points and most of the time i end up with 20-25.
Unless there is a great mission secondary or an easy take like bring it down or assassinate i always go for the safe bet.
Engage is kinda a get-there-and-die thing, at least if the opponent knows what he is doing. 3 Enlightened or 5 Rubrics are not that hard to take down, but if Scarabs or the larger squads join later they hopefully survive. 3 quarters 5 turns is an easy 10 points in my oppinion with the realistic option to score a bit more if you get to 4. Last two turns depends on who is winning, if i table him it`s a no brainer with raise the banners combined, if it`s the other way around it doesn`t matter anyway. I had more games with a score of 90:30 than a close ~60:50 score - most of the time it swings in one direction.
Domination and raise the banners depend heavily on the mission and number of objectives. 5 is great for domination, 6 is great for raise. 4 is kinda meh to max out.
The Shaman is my dude if it comes to warpcraft, but sometimes i use my Changecaster / Fluxmaster for that as well.
But to be honest i just go for psychic ritual if the opponent has no means to deny it or rush the middle. (Tau, Admech) I guess the BA will bring Mephiston or some other Psyker? In that case it can be denied and i would`t bother. A few bad rolls and you get no points. Also if the Shaman dies that means 1 other Psyker looses his whole turn just to do psychic actions.
But if you wanna go there, mental interrogation will be the best take.
2020/09/07 14:28:39
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Just my 2 cents, but I always preferred line breaker over engage on all fronts. Ts cult of duplicity can easily get units into the opponents back line by t2 or 3, your typically wanting to put pressure on the opponents "safe" backfield objective anyways, and you get more vp for that a turn than engage on all fronts.
Also deploy scramblers is super easy. It doesn't have to be the same unit that does it so you could theoretically pull it off t5 easily. The final overlooked one is deploy teleport homers. Its more board dependent but I have had a few games where after seeing the board and deployment zones it became a good choice. T2 teleport a small, almost destroyed rubric squad behind obscuring terrain out of the way and do that for 4vp if they live until next turn? And more than 1 unit can try for it at a time, you can spike and get a lot of 2ndary pts for a small amount of investment. And if your opponent does send something to get rid of the small squads then they are not focusing that power on your bigger things. Like i said, its a more board dependent choice, i only take it if I see places to hide mid to late game, but it also helps for linebreaker so can be a useful option to consider.
2020/09/07 17:55:23
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Yeah those secondaries depend heavily on the mission, deployment zones and of course the opponent. All three Battlefield Suppremacy secondaries have their pros and cons but all three are managable for TS. Some goes for the Shadow operations, where Raise the Banners is a safe play to chip away some points but the others will max out with 3-4 bold turns.
The downside on Linebreaker is you need two units in your opponents deployment zone and using Sorcerous Facade means you need to stay 9" away from enemy models.
I play against tank heavy Guard and castling Admech a lot though, against Knights or Custodes it`s something else entirely.
Three turns on this will give you 12 points though.
Domination is horrible with 4 objectives, especially if each player has basicly two directly in front of the deployment zone. It`s good on 5 objectives and against low model count armies or armies that care about killing more than board controll.
Engage needs 2 units in the opponents half of the battlefield to max out but leaves a bit more room to breath and is something you can reach with advancing Enlightened or porting cultists at the edge of the table. Downside is one bad turn can prevent maxing out.
Deploy Scramblers is an kinda easy one but maxes out at 10. If this had an extra condition to max it out or at least get 12 points i would consider it more often.
Teleport Homer is a huge gamble against some armies plus indirect fire with AP is not rare and can still wipe those Rubrics.
Also you can only start the same action once per turn so this is quite easy for the opponent to intervene and it`s not possible to get more than 4 points from this in 1 turn.
But yeah i agree, some of those can be really good in some matchups / missions plus they depend heavily on what kind and amount of terrain you use.
To put pressure at the enemys backyard is a good point though.
There is no best take for secondaries and I would go for the one that suits your army and playstyle best. I have to admit i lack the balls to try pulling of something like linebreaker consistantly but felt quite comfortable with throwaway scoring on engage / Raise the banners.
The stress of picking Psychic Ritual from time to time is all my nerves can handle.
2020/09/07 21:52:24
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Well, on the other hand, you could do the deamon ball blitz strategy. It still works just fine.
Make your warlord a deamon prince and give him Aetherstide.
Take a squad of tzaangors with the brayhorn for+1 to charge.
Finally take a defiler or maulerfiend (i prefer deffy).
T1 you advance/warptime your dp onto a flank, with reroll charges and advance+charge he will definitely be able to t1 alpha strike. Now you dark matter crystal the tzaangors onto the same front. Finally you teleport deffy up to that front as well. This works best when hitting a single flank, if you go in the middle your giving up all 3 units to your opponents entire army. But if you do a flank there is a great chance you will be able to overwhelm it and / or be outside some range of your enemy's guns.
Hit the flank hard, you should get 2 of the 3 in if not all 3. This sudden blitz maneuver has won me a lot of games because it doesn't have to play that way. On the table you can easily not do that and play a more standard tson force with no changes to the list. But when you do hit your opponent super hard like this it will make them try and deal with the threat you suddenly shoved in his face very quickly or get swept away.
It also gets you linebreaker or engage on all fronts pretty easily.
Finally you can swap those things out to what you like. Heck you could do it with 3 deamon princes (which would also be funny) for smite / strike shenanigans.
2020/09/08 07:24:45
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Ritual is a risk, but if you're running a 20-man Rubric blob and a Shaman it does give you options. Obviously not one to take into a load of snipers though.
The one i'd likely drop the most though would be Banners, in favour of either the mission specific one or one of the killy ones, based on my opponents army.
2020/10/05 18:24:58
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
So the FAQ`s to bring Marines & Chaos in line with the new changes are here.
Most important stuff: Scarabs get S5 power swords, (Heavy) Flamers get 12" range, Meltas get the 2+D6Dmg treatment Marines got as well, Multimelter is 2 shots now (Hellbrute likes this), Heavy Bolter is D2 now (neat), Demolisher Cannon D6 Blast, Reaper Autocannons get AP2, plasma cannon & pistol just overheat on unmodified 1s, Force sword gets +1S and Force Staff +1S as well (All sorcerers get S7 instead S6 now, sweet!).
Sadly Warpflamers are still 9" and no 2 wound Rubrics for now. Still a nice buff and no point increases with this update.
Also some other changes if you soup other Chaos stuff but mostly its bringing all those weapons on par.
2020/10/06 20:10:44
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Ok after digesting the faq and spending a day raging at the chaos gods for not letting us have 12 inch flamers I’m ready to digest.
The biggest changes for us seem to be multinelta changes and heavy bolter. Multinelta because we lack anti tank and this gives us some really good AT firepower. I think the best chassis for multinelta are contemptors, hitting on 2s and moving 10 inches allows for a threat range of 32 inches with warptime to get the melta rule. Plus if the dread has a fist you want it up close and personal anyway.
The heavy bolter I think goes great with our helbrute, if you have the CP I think it’s worth it to give it inferno bolts for -2ap. You can then stick it somewhere and between prescience and fire frenzy you can get 12 ap-2 D2 str 5 shots off. That’s going to put a big hurt in anything but particularly t4 units.
Power swords are a nice boost to SOT and against t4 gives them a good boost, with prescience and veterans you’re hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s at ap-3. Still at only D1 you’re not going to do a lot against marines so make sure they don’t hVe ap-2 weapons.
Sadly that’s all that seems relevant to us. We have to wait til we get our codex to really achieve our true power.
2020/10/12 12:15:33
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
im a old 40K player getting back into the hobby after a decade long remission. I'm currently collecting Admech, and just starting custodes, but im looking further afield to where next. I'm looking for something Not Imperial, and im currently getting drawn towards the Thousand Sons. I have a few questions:
1) which books are needed to play them? codex: Thousand sons is obivous, and i understand their PA book was "ritual of the Dammed", but do you need the regular Codex: chaos space marines, or Chaos deamons? or are the rules for the relevant stuff all on Codex thousand Sons?
2) Tzaangors. these are the same models form the Age of sigmar range, yes? i see they offer a "upgrade sprue" of chainswords and pistols, is that worth getting? it feels like the option of shooting isnt really worth a +50% real world cost increase (£27.50 for a box of Tzaangors, £16 for 2 upgrade sprues", and it kinda limits your ability to also feild them in AOS (should you wish to), so do people do it?
edit: additional question:
3) forge world stuff. do the Tsons have any access to that? I know that a lot of FW stuff is sorta-imperial, sorta chaos, but i dont know if stuff like, say, the tsons compemtor dread is 40K legal or just 30K becuase of the Rubric or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 15:24:32
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
2020/10/12 15:22:54
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
im a old 40K player getting back into the hobby after a decade long remission. I'm currently collecting Admech, and just starting custodes, but im looking further afield to where next. I'm looking for something Not Imperial, and im currently getting drawn towards the Thousand Sons. I have a few questions:
1) which books are needed to play them? codex: Thousand sons is obivous, and i understand their PA book was "ritual of the Dammed", but do you need the regular Codex: chaos space marines, or Chaos deamons? or are the rules for the relevant stuff all on Codex thousand Sons?
2) Tzaangors. these are the same models form the Age of sigmar range, yes? i see they offer a "upgrade sprue" of chainswords and pistols, is that worth getting? it feels like the option of shooting isnt really worth a +50% real world cost increase (£27.50 for a box of Tzaangors, £16 for 2 upgrade sprues", and it kinda limits your ability to also feild them in AOS (should you wish to), so do people do it?
1. That is really it. It depends on whether or not you want to soup. Personally, I went with War Dog Knights and a despoiler for allies.
2. It depends on how you want to play them. The most cost effective way to get the upgrade sprues is to get the Start Collecting boxes in multiple, even if you end up with multiple Ahrimans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 15:25:22
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Ok, thanks for the answers.
I keep hearing people on this forum talking about "soup". am i right in understanding this to mean "taking a non battle forged force from multiple allied factions to min-max up the ying-yang while loosing the detachment abilites you get for being battle forged?"
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
2020/10/12 16:02:53
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I believe taking a non battle forced army is illegal for matched play, so no you can´t soup say a DG Blight spawn in your otherwise TS list. What people mean by soup is taking 2 (or more) battle forged detachments alongside each other. So you'd have say one TS patrol containing Ahriman and some rubrics and then a second patrol with a Deamon Prince of Nurgle and some Plague Marines. This way both patrols keep their rules and you have a legal army.
2020/10/12 16:26:30
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
A common example I do is souping in a Tzeench Demons patrol alongside my Thousand Sons battalion. Soup doesn’t have to be min-maxing; sometimes it’s fluffy instead.
2020/10/18 15:06:31
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I am almost finished painting the models I have for my main army, and while I'm waiting for the codex, I wanted to start a crusade vs a friend of mine.
I really love the aspect of Rubrics, and happens that I have the beginning of a 1000k sons KT in a box. 10 Rubrics and 10 Tzaangors. What should I get ro have a fun entrance to the army? I don't care about being competitive, but I know I'm going to love Psiquic shenanigans.
I was thinking in an HQ (obvious) and a Chaos Rhino.
The Bloody Sails
2020/11/06 22:04:48
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I'm fairly new to the TSons, and I almost have built up my force to a full 2K points. I'm essentially only missing another squad of SOT to fill out the rest of the list, as I'm painting each unit as I build.
I had my largest game yet the other day, against Harlequins, and won literally by a single point *Cue maniacal laugh*.
Now, I truly believe that I only won because he played Midnight Sorrow instead of Soaring Spite for his masque form. Because he could not advance and fire his fusion pistols, I was able to deploy outside of the range of the fusion for the start of the game (he took first turn) so my Rhinos x2 and my MVB were both safe to start the game. His jetbikes were also shuriken cannons instead of haywire due to points, so my rhinos and MVB ended up overperforming. If he had played soaring spite, and had used haywire on his bikes (both of which would be expected at 2K) he would have statistically destroyed both Rhinos, and assuming a bit of luck would have dusted the MVB in shooting, and then charges with the bikes would have killed something else.
So, now that I got that bit out of the way, I have a question. How do you guys tend to play against armies that are so fast like that, and can put out such a strong alpha strike as TSons?
I've played Orks exclusively since 7th edition, so this is new territory for me, and I want to make sure I don't miss something obvious.
I know all the meta builds for TSons, so I'm not looking for army construction advice (I know the MVB isn't really competitive) but more for deployment and general tactics talk centered around dealing with any army that is fast, aggressive, and killy like the Harlequins. It seems like a pretty bad match up for TSons on paper, but maybe I'm missing something.
Or perhaps it really is just as simple as pump out mortal wounds until they're gone?
2020/11/17 12:27:46
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I received a TS start collecting box for my birthday yesterday, have already bought some extras to bulk out the force a bit, and have put together a rudimentary list, hoping for some feedback before I buy anything else:
HQ Ahriman on Disk
Exalted Sorcerer on Disk
Exalted Sorcerer
Elites Hellbrute - Scourge and Twin Las
Hellbrute - Scourge and Twin Las
5x Scarab Terminators - Hellfire Missiles and Soulreaper
Overall this comes to 1677pts (approx.). I feel that perhaps this could do with some more Heavy Support; I've always loved the Defiler and it's considerably more competitive than it was before so hoping to keep this in the list. I'm unsure as to wherever it's worth taking some Fast Attack, as according to BS the only choices that aren't FW are Tzaangor Enlightened and Spawn, neither of which leap out as particularly effective.
Thoughts?
2020/11/17 13:36:38
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I personally really enjoy Spawn and their potential. They can be a pain to use well, but when they work, they really can pull their own weight several times over.
As for more heavy support etc, more Termies i guess. We don't have a great deal of options now that we've lost FW access. Could always run more Defilers but that'll be up to others to advise on, as i'm not well versed in using them.
For me, it's bodies, bodies and more bodies and then play around the missions.
2020/11/17 16:21:21
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Well, upgrading the sorcerers to princes is the easiest way to add more punchiness. a prince and easily bully a weak unit off an objective on his own (even a small marine unit), and our princes are pretty nasty overall.
Also, spawn are suprisingly effective. they are not very great, but against a wiser opponent, he might be aware of the Fated Mutation stratagem, and just how nasty they become under it-and they are VERY cheap for what they do-making them yet another decent bully unit.
Basically, if you plan to march up the board and try to fight things off objectives, princes and spawn cant really fail you.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2020/11/22 10:11:18
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
do you guys prefer to run your Tzaangors with the big swords or with pistols and chainswords? i'm planning on getting the start collecting box to, y'know, start collecting the Tsons, and im wondering about if theirs a noticeable difference between the two on the board?
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
2020/11/23 09:14:46
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
So im running a Tzeentch demons/tsons list and im curious how I should finish the list off. The tsons side has the following:
Ahriman, DP w/wings, exalted sorcerer
3x units of 5 Rubrics
5x Scarab Termies
Forgefiend
Ive been considering swapping around the exalted and termies for a second DP and another unit of Rubrics. Would this be worth it or are the termies good atm?
2020/11/27 10:31:09
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
ok, im still really new to the current version of the rules. what are the rules for mixing two allied factions like this?
As I understand it, it can be done as both share the "TZEENTCH" keyword, so they can be used in a matched play army (as "CHAOS" isnt allowed as shared keyword). The two forces must be in valid force org detachments, and you play a CP tax for the detachment that doesnt have your warlord in it. Only one has a warlord in it, and thus only one army has its warlord trait and free relic (but you can pay CP for a relic in the other detachment). Both detachments get their respective detachment bonuses (ie their factions OBSEC rule and whatever special faction rule they have, like "BROTHERHOOD OF SORCERERS" or "DAEMONIC LOCI"), but those rules only apply to thier own part of the army.
Is that right? am i missing something?
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
2020/11/27 12:03:06
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
It'll only matter if the 
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
Watch Company Rho 1650pts
The Bloody Sails 
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 