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Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




lurch wrote:
I think the level of fantasy argument in Warhammer largely comes from the way the level of fantasy varies from army to army and how it has varied over time and editions.

how much fantasy you think is normal in the setting comes from when you entered and what form novel/game/rpg you experienced it the most.

As someone who came in during sixth edition, to me there was a notably increase in "high fantasy" elements over time especially in 8th. I bet if you started in 7th or especially 8th these additions don't stand out so much.


You'd think that, but you can go back to the books published in 1989 and 1990 (Wolf Riders and Ignorant Armies) and find travelling carnivals with wyverns, mentions of demi-gryphs, intelligent bug colonies wearing people suits as skins, Drachenfels (the origin point for both Nagash and Bel'akor), spaceships, tanks made out of mithril, etc, etc. The high fantasy elements were there from the beginning, they just weren't on the tables because of GW's model casting limitations. Early Warhammer was actually a lot crazier before it got nailed down and codified by copypasta background transcribed from army book to army book with only minor tweaks.

You came in at a point where things were getting toned down for no apparent reason. Slann were demoted to servants, and the Old Ones created out of nowhere. Slann were the original old ones, the crazy gardeners terraforming the planet and poking various species to see how they turned out, then falling to barbarism after their polar gateways collapsed. That changes the fundamental assumption of the setting a lot, and a lot of army lists became similarly less fantastical. Wizards just tossed a few fireballs and similar damage spells, rather than ripping open gateways for demonic incursions and creating terrain. The human armies became more historical and less weird, and the elven armies were still stuck on being copies of each other in large chunks. Someone at the studio was trying to move away from the fantasy aspects that had been everywhere in the setting and it really showed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 03:11:02


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Didn't they retcon the retcon of Old Ones and Slann? Either during the End Times or after, it was revealed the lizardmen were Old ones.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Chaos Terminator






Surfing the Tervigon Wave...on a baby.

 GaroRobe wrote:
Didn't they retcon the retcon of Old Ones and Slann? Either during the End Times or after, it was revealed the lizardmen were Old ones.



Uh. No. That was never the case. The Lizardmen have always been servants of the Old Ones, with the Slann being old enough to remember them. There was never a retcon of them to be the Old Ones.


Now only a CSM player. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Warhammer pretty much tried to be all things to all people (at least all fantasy miniature wargamers) and have something for everyone. Maybe that's why people disagree about how to label/pigeon-hole it.


Didn’t have a lot for players who wanted Araby, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, Warhammer Africa (what was it called?), or women (except for a few character minis).


Elves for a long time have had a decent number of females mixed in, I think many of the Wood Elf sets were a pretty reasonable mix of male and female. Of course Elves are androgynous enough that "female" just meant alternative torso.

Was there even an Africa? There was Araby, which was quite a large land mass and the Land of the Dead (or whatever it was called, where Tomb Kings / Egypt came from), but then if you went south it was the Southlands, which is more Lizardmen. Don't know what it was in the pre-Lizardmen fluff.

I think with CA/GW expanding further east we're only going to get more crazy / silly fantastical elements.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/15 06:22:07


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Irbis wrote:
A "wild animal"? Is that from some gak fanfiction (aka cd projekt game)? Because in Witcher books, the whole point of the story dealing with dragons was that they are NOT animals and Witcher outright refused to hunt intelligent, beautiful magical creature even when begged by his love...


The dragon being hunted in that story is a wild animal to everyone except Borch. And endangered animal perhaps, but an animal.

Which has nothing to do with the point I was illustrating.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Just saying, but Warhammer "low fantasy" was never that way constantly in the old times. In fact, at the very beginning, it was wildly high fantasy.

So this whole old debate of "not my Warhammer Fantasy" really depends when you started the game and what version you were really fond of.

But Warhammer Fantasy Battle was never meant to be "low fantasy". In Warhammer Fantasy RPG first edition, reason why it felt this way is because the main setting of the adventures was the Old World - and specifically, the Empire where magic is bad and severely controlled, with the common of people highly superstitious and xenophobe, and mutants hunted all the time. But that doesn't mean the whole world was low fantasy - far from it.

Castle Drachenfels adventure book was everything but low fantasy, for example. Or the legendary Something Rotten in Kislev, when the adventurers meet a specific character that is NOT low fantasy at all (and clearly here to show players some humility ).

I don't really see the problem here with Kislev. Actually, it was to be expected GW wish to bring more high fantasy like the Elemental Bears and canons on ice chariot pulled by bears. I mean, you saw the concept art for the Tzarina elite guard with magical ice weapons...

As for the units showed in the trailer, well obviously they wanted to give a good idea of most "awesome" Kislev units. In Total War Warhammer, players can make armies only made of dragons, demygryphs or Steam Tanks (hell even just heroes if they want), even if it doesn't make sense at all in the background. It's a strategic video game in which you can conquer the whole Warhammer map with just one faction. Of course you will see armies of bears just because one player thought it was fun to do so. It's stupid to criticize the game for that. It's clear you can also make a more "balanced" army if you wish it so (and besides, it's also obvious you won't start with only bears in your starting army and won't be able to recruit those that fast in the campaign).

I expect Cathay to be even wilder - and frankly ? I welcome it. It would be boring to just make a copy-paste of historical chinese armies.

This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2021/05/15 09:16:53


 
   
Made in au
Osprey Reader




Having read the last few pages with mild bemusement... when did it become common practice to say 'low/high fantasy' as a synonym for 'low/high magic'?

This isn't meant as a You're Doing It Wrong complaint. Everybody else here is clearly unbothered by it. I'm just having Fry from Futurama moment (whoa, I have been gone a long time). I've seen it used in reference to other settings too, like GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire, and it always makes me do a double-take.

(I'll stick my explanation/rant in a spoiler box because it's a little off-topic.)
Spoiler:
Back in my day ... 'high fantasy' had nothing to do with the amount of magic and crazy stuff in a setting. It meant something more like 'high matters of importance'. That is, fantasy about great world-shaking events, a potential apocalypse, the dawn of a new age... stuff like that.

Or sometimes it meant a setting or story that concerned itself with high and profound themes, like the nature of evil, if and how power corrupts, whether right and wrong still exist if the gods are destined to lose in the final battle at the end of time, and so on.

The Lord of the Rings, by those definitions, is as high as a hobbit on bad pipeweed. But it's very much a low magic setting. As GRR Martin said in an interview once, mostly Gandalf fights with his sword just like everyone else. Even the films (silly Saruman fireball aside) and the GW game are much lower magic than WFB. Heck, most of the 'spells' in LotR SBG are more like Jedi mind tricks to inspire courage or sap the enemy's willpower rather than chuck comets at each other.

By contrast, 'low fantasy' used to mean something like Sword and Sorcery. That is, Conanesque stuff where everyone is basically out to make a buck and stay alive, and the heroes are as self-serving as the bad guys. "Kick the monsters' doors down and nick their stuff! Uh oh, an evil wizard! Quick, call on your sinister god and cut a deal!" Or it meant something more interested in low themes--fights, bawdy humour, fart jokes and so on. Stuff for the cheap seats.

D&D's Planescape in its original form was theoretically high fantasy. Not because of the sheer high-concept weirdness or overdose of magic (entire worlds and planes were made of the stuff), but because it was supposed to be about Big Questions, like philosophical beliefs about how the universe worked. In practice, though, a lot of the actual adventures written for it--and probably a lot of the games played in it--appear to have resorted to 'kick the monster's door in and take their stuff' ... only you're kicking down a door of pure grief to steal a demon's secret love for kittens. Because that's what D&D was set up to do. It ended up being used for regular low fantasy thrills. Only the decor changed. On the other hand, the PC game Planescape: Torment really did go full high fantasy with its themes. You know, 'What can change the nature of a man?' and all that. Same crazier-than-AoS setting, but totally different approaches to the material.

Part of the appeal of WFB is that it's broad enough to encompass all those definitions, high and low. You've got your impending Chaotic apocalypse and great big world-shaking (literally) Slann and High Elf shenanigans, plus scope to explore some interesting themes if you want to... while at the low-fantasy end you've got things like Mordheim and Warhammer Quest (well, the original anyway) where the point is to grab the gold/warpstone/etc and stab the other guy without being stabbed yourself.

What WFB really is, is genre fantasy, or Fantasyland as Diana Wynn Jones called it. But that's fine. It's comfortable. It's fun.


Anyway, I'm of the contrarian opinion that 4th/5th ed WFB was more realistic and low-fantasy (argh, now I'm doing it too) than 6th ed. No, really.

It didn't look like it, because of the art change and the new sculpts and painting style. The aesthetics were all definitely more toned-down and realistic than the cartoonier mid-90s style.* But in terms of writing, there's a surprising amount of everyday detail in those 4th and 5th ed armybooks that feel like they were written by people who really knew their history. Info about how Lizardmen make writing tools and things like that. Likewise, a lot of the old Bill King flavour text dwells more on characters having introspective moments than fight scenes. It feels more grounded in the real world to me.
*except for the 5th ed Vampire Counts book, which easily out-horrors the 6th ed one in both art and lack of proofreading

6th ed seems to have pushed more in the direction of That's Nice, But We'd Like More Cool Violent Battles Please. And everything had to be grim and dark all the time. It gets a bit tiresome. (Yes, I prefer sunny and cheerful 5th ed Bretonnia. You need a few bright spots here and there. It makes the dark darker by contrast.)

On the off-chance that a Zelda comparison might make this clearer: 4th/5th ed WFB feels more like Majora's Mask, while 6th ed feels like Twilight Princess. The former is outwardly colourful and goofy and childish... but full of real, old and troubling things underneath, like the darkness of fairytales. The latter looks darker and grittier and cooler... but has an adolescent shallowness to it.

At least, that's my take after collecting and reading the books from 4th to 6th in the last few years--without having played WFB back in the day, and thus not feeling all that nostalgic for one edition or another.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 10:40:13


 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

If you don’t like how something is being handled in AoS/40k/whatever (such as prevalence of big models), it’s very unlikely to be any different in TOW.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




@Zenithfleet: I think the word just evolved to mean low/high magic over time.
Anyway, what some empire-focused people miss out on is that the empire wasn't the norm in the old world. It was specifically the one place in the world that had magic controlled, technology replacing it slowly, and people living muddy, boring lives barring occasional beastman raid or chaos invasion. Even next town over in Bretonnia you had flying horses, immortal champions of the realm and prayers actually stopping cannon-balls from pulverizing knights. Go a bit further and you have an empire of undead ruled over by mummies. A bit further and you have the gleaming spires of ulthuan where dragons still roam (if in limited numbers!) and magic is still used commonly. Empire was the exception, not the norm.
   
Made in us
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OKC, OK USA

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Was there even an Africa? There was Araby, which was quite a large land mass and the Land of the Dead (or whatever it was called, where Tomb Kings / Egypt came from), but then if you went south it was the Southlands, which is more Lizardmen. Don't know what it was in the pre-Lizardmen fluff.


The pre-Lizardmen fluff for the Southlands was a lot of racist stereotyping like Pygmies. Turning it into Lustria 2: Jungle Boogaloo was probably the best thing they could do for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 12:17:59


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in ch
Regular Dakkanaut




Cronch wrote:
@Zenithfleet: I think the word just evolved to mean low/high magic over time.
Anyway, what some empire-focused people miss out on is that the empire wasn't the norm in the old world. It was specifically the one place in the world that had magic controlled, technology replacing it slowly, and people living muddy, boring lives barring occasional beastman raid or chaos invasion. Even next town over in Bretonnia you had flying horses, immortal champions of the realm and prayers actually stopping cannon-balls from pulverizing knights. Go a bit further and you have an empire of undead ruled over by mummies. A bit further and you have the gleaming spires of ulthuan where dragons still roam (if in limited numbers!) and magic is still used commonly. Empire was the exception, not the norm.


I think a lot of the impression of Warhammer being uniquely ‘Low Fantasy’ comes more from WFRP 1e and 2e than WFB itself tbh.

The war game has always had large monsters, showy magic, legions of daemons/undead etc; whereas WFRP’s ‘you’re a rat catcher, a bone picker, a charlatan and a mercenary who are all dirt poor, adventuring in marginally magical (esp in 2e) renaissance Germany, and are probably all going to go insane and then die’ is such a departure from other RPGs (esp D&D) that it makes rather the strong impression. This has then filtered across to WFB by pop culture osmosis across the fandom.
   
Made in at
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.


There was Bear cavalry in Tuomas Pirinen's Kislev army list in Citadel Journal 15 (that was like 25 years ago), an old artwork of Boris Ursa riding a bear from John Blanche and more bears in Warmaster. Also the Tsar on bear model and background about a bear god worshipped by the Kislevites.You needed the Trailer to figure out that in an army of Kislev would be... bears?

The last range of Kislev miniatures featured one bear, Boris' and the rest were riding horses. I fully expected the flanderisation as soon as the unit of Bear Cavalry showed up since there was no way they were going to stop at one unit/maybe character. Warmaster did have a unit of them, sure, but I don't recall bear-artillery and a giant-bear elemental and I'm sure every other item/spell will be bear-themed.
   
Made in nl
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator




netherlands

what do you people thing gw would do if they did bring back to old world keep the army as they where, there would be no money to make.
and the bear artillery with his magical ice is there to move it on the no snow tables. )

full compagny of bloodangels,
5000 pnt imperial guard
5000 pnt orks
2500 pnt grey knights
5000 pnt gsc 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






There's a million way they could have made some changes to armies while not going over the top.

lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





It's not like the Gryphon Legion or the Winged Lancers are going to go away with these Bear Cavalry in their place. We clearly saw them in the trailers and gameplay footage.

I personally was neutral on Kislev until I read they play like Dwarfs, but with cavalry in place of artillery. That sounds like a cracking combination.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/16 13:26:21


Fernys Hjolda!
 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 skeleton wrote:
what do you people thing gw would do if they did bring back to old world keep the army as they where, there would be no money to make.


Given Kislev haven't existed as an army for a long time (and even then only as a compilation of White Dwarf articles) they probably could have released something reasonably similar to what came before and still made good money on it. There's going to be people who want Kislev that don't own any of the previous models.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 skeleton wrote:
what do you people thing gw would do if they did bring back to old world keep the army as they where, there would be no money to make.


Given Kislev haven't existed as an army for a long time (and even then only as a compilation of White Dwarf articles) they probably could have released something reasonably similar to what came before and still made good money on it. There's going to be people who want Kislev that don't own any of the previous models.


If people take the time to look at the Hussars, Ungols, Character on Bear, etc they'd realize the Kislev army _is_ very similar to what came before. People are apparently so stuck on the outliers that they're not bothering to look at the bulk of the army.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 skeleton wrote:
what do you people thing gw would do if they did bring back to old world keep the army as they where, there would be no money to make.


Given Kislev haven't existed as an army for a long time (and even then only as a compilation of White Dwarf articles) they probably could have released something reasonably similar to what came before and still made good money on it. There's going to be people who want Kislev that don't own any of the previous models.


If people take the time to look at the Hussars, Ungols, Character on Bear, etc they'd realize the Kislev army _is_ very similar to what came before. People are apparently so stuck on the outliers that they're not bothering to look at the bulk of the army.


Yeah, personally I'm not unhappy with what I've seen so far, other than the axe guns looking a bit silly.

I reckon Bear Cav was an inevitability for Kislev. If GW decided to redo Kislev any time in the past 15 years I think it would have had that Bear Cav, maybe it would have been a Rare choice.

The ice skating bothers me more just because it looks a bit silly, but meh, not a big deal.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Arbitrator wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.


There was Bear cavalry in Tuomas Pirinen's Kislev army list in Citadel Journal 15 (that was like 25 years ago), an old artwork of Boris Ursa riding a bear from John Blanche and more bears in Warmaster. Also the Tsar on bear model and background about a bear god worshipped by the Kislevites.You needed the Trailer to figure out that in an army of Kislev would be... bears?

The last range of Kislev miniatures featured one bear, Boris' and the rest were riding horses. I fully expected the flanderisation as soon as the unit of Bear Cavalry showed up since there was no way they were going to stop at one unit/maybe character. Warmaster did have a unit of them, sure, but I don't recall bear-artillery and a giant-bear elemental and I'm sure every other item/spell will be bear-themed.


Is it really flanderization though? The established Kislev lore, at least from what I can see looking at the wiki, heavily involved bears in the first place. Bears are a huge part of their society, with them having a religion involving a God of Bears who is usually depicted as a bear, and becoming a priest involves taming a bear. Consisting that their religion involves a bear and they're tied to Kislev society heavily, a giant ice bear as a manefestation of the land doesn't seem out of place, and neither does an ancient canon being towed by bears. While there are obviously more units involving them now, I don't see much of a chance compared to their importance before.
   
Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 skeleton wrote:
what do you people thing gw would do if they did bring back to old world keep the army as they where, there would be no money to make.


Given Kislev haven't existed as an army for a long time (and even then only as a compilation of White Dwarf articles) they probably could have released something reasonably similar to what came before and still made good money on it. There's going to be people who want Kislev that don't own any of the previous models.


If people take the time to look at the Hussars, Ungols, Character on Bear, etc they'd realize the Kislev army _is_ very similar to what came before. People are apparently so stuck on the outliers that they're not bothering to look at the bulk of the army.


Yeah, personally I'm not unhappy with what I've seen so far, other than the axe guns looking a bit silly.

I reckon Bear Cav was an inevitability for Kislev. If GW decided to redo Kislev any time in the past 15 years I think it would have had that Bear Cav, maybe it would have been a Rare choice.

The ice skating bothers me more just because it looks a bit silly, but meh, not a big deal.


I think if you removed the ice and put some skis there it would look way better.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Koveras wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 skeleton wrote:
what do you people thing gw would do if they did bring back to old world keep the army as they where, there would be no money to make.


Given Kislev haven't existed as an army for a long time (and even then only as a compilation of White Dwarf articles) they probably could have released something reasonably similar to what came before and still made good money on it. There's going to be people who want Kislev that don't own any of the previous models.


If people take the time to look at the Hussars, Ungols, Character on Bear, etc they'd realize the Kislev army _is_ very similar to what came before. People are apparently so stuck on the outliers that they're not bothering to look at the bulk of the army.


Yeah, personally I'm not unhappy with what I've seen so far, other than the axe guns looking a bit silly.

I reckon Bear Cav was an inevitability for Kislev. If GW decided to redo Kislev any time in the past 15 years I think it would have had that Bear Cav, maybe it would have been a Rare choice.

The ice skating bothers me more just because it looks a bit silly, but meh, not a big deal.


I think if you removed the ice and put some skis there it would look way better.


Or even just a slab of ice, rather than the wierd non-flat thing they went for instead. The concept art of it looks better.
   
Made in fi
Charging Wild Rider





 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.


There was Bear cavalry in Tuomas Pirinen's Kislev army list in Citadel Journal 15 (that was like 25 years ago), an old artwork of Boris Ursa riding a bear from John Blanche and more bears in Warmaster. Also the Tsar on bear model and background about a bear god worshipped by the Kislevites.You needed the Trailer to figure out that in an army of Kislev would be... bears?

The last range of Kislev miniatures featured one bear, Boris' and the rest were riding horses. I fully expected the flanderisation as soon as the unit of Bear Cavalry showed up since there was no way they were going to stop at one unit/maybe character. Warmaster did have a unit of them, sure, but I don't recall bear-artillery and a giant-bear elemental and I'm sure every other item/spell will be bear-themed.


Is it really flanderization though? The established Kislev lore, at least from what I can see looking at the wiki, heavily involved bears in the first place. Bears are a huge part of their society, with them having a religion involving a God of Bears who is usually depicted as a bear, and becoming a priest involves taming a bear. Consisting that their religion involves a bear and they're tied to Kislev society heavily, a giant ice bear as a manefestation of the land doesn't seem out of place, and neither does an ancient canon being towed by bears. While there are obviously more units involving them now, I don't see much of a chance compared to their importance before.
A bit, but it was so expected that it doesn't bother me too much. The canon could just have been a canon, or pulled by horses however. Bear imagery may be common, but in terms of its military, Kislev's most iconic units to date were dudes on horses with bows and dudes on horses with lances and wings on their backs - which I know are still in, but obviously overshadowed by big bear things. At least Kislev had the twin inspirations of "bears" and "ice", so that at least not everything is purely bear-based.
Speaking of big bear things though, the elemental bear is a bit much in my view - had expected a temporary spell effect that looks like a bear, but that thing is just enormous. It just made the Bloodthirster look like a Barbie doll. And that's exactly what adding extra bears and magic changes: not just the looks, but the balance of power, the odds of survival. When the armies of the Empire and Kislev largely consist of armed peasants who got a few hours of training before being handed a halberd or axe and told where to stand on the battlefield, their struggle against the forces of Chaos is heroic. When the Khornate demonic hell-machine monstrous cavalry are simply countered with units of monstrous bear cavalry, and the greater daemon of Khorne smashed to bits by a massive elemental bear... less so.
   
Made in us
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 skeleton wrote:
what do you people thing gw would do if they did bring back to old world keep the army as they where, there would be no money to make.


Given Kislev haven't existed as an army for a long time (and even then only as a compilation of White Dwarf articles) they probably could have released something reasonably similar to what came before and still made good money on it. There's going to be people who want Kislev that don't own any of the previous models.


If people take the time to look at the Hussars, Ungols, Character on Bear, etc they'd realize the Kislev army _is_ very similar to what came before. People are apparently so stuck on the outliers that they're not bothering to look at the bulk of the army.


Yeah, personally I'm not unhappy with what I've seen so far, other than the axe guns looking a bit silly.

I reckon Bear Cav was an inevitability for Kislev. If GW decided to redo Kislev any time in the past 15 years I think it would have had that Bear Cav, maybe it would have been a Rare choice.

The ice skating bothers me more just because it looks a bit silly, but meh, not a big deal.


Yeah, the axe-guns seem more like a Chaos Dwarf thing. That's basically what Firepikes are, right?

Fernys Hjolda!
 
   
Made in de
Fully-charged Electropriest






 Arbitrator wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.


There was Bear cavalry in Tuomas Pirinen's Kislev army list in Citadel Journal 15 (that was like 25 years ago), an old artwork of Boris Ursa riding a bear from John Blanche and more bears in Warmaster. Also the Tsar on bear model and background about a bear god worshipped by the Kislevites.You needed the Trailer to figure out that in an army of Kislev would be... bears?

The last range of Kislev miniatures featured one bear, Boris' and the rest were riding horses. I fully expected the flanderisation as soon as the unit of Bear Cavalry showed up since there was no way they were going to stop at one unit/maybe character. Warmaster did have a unit of them, sure, but I don't recall bear-artillery and a giant-bear elemental and I'm sure every other item/spell will be bear-themed.


Well, I have the Citadel Journal 15 right in my hands now. Let's see... Every character can ride a bear. The Sons of Ursa, a cavalry unit, do it anyway. Then there're the Sibyrian beast tamers. With wolves. Or... bears. I think a cannon drawn by bears and an elemental in the shape of a bear are.... bearable.
   
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 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Speaking of big bear things though, the elemental bear is a bit much in my view - had expected a temporary spell effect that looks like a bear, but that thing is just enormous. It just made the Bloodthirster look like a Barbie doll. And that's exactly what adding extra bears and magic changes: not just the looks, but the balance of power, the odds of survival. When the armies of the Empire and Kislev largely consist of armed peasants who got a few hours of training before being handed a halberd or axe and told where to stand on the battlefield, their struggle against the forces of Chaos is heroic. When the Khornate demonic hell-machine monstrous cavalry are simply countered with units of monstrous bear cavalry, and the greater daemon of Khorne smashed to bits by a massive elemental bear... less so.


I'm not expecting the big bear to be in TOW, at least not as big as it is here.

As you say, it's huge, it's hard to tell but maybe Dread Saurian sized. Which makes me think it'll be a FW model or it'll be shrunk somewhat if it's released by the main GW or maybe it won't make it into TOW at all.
   
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 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.


There was Bear cavalry in Tuomas Pirinen's Kislev army list in Citadel Journal 15 (that was like 25 years ago), an old artwork of Boris Ursa riding a bear from John Blanche and more bears in Warmaster. Also the Tsar on bear model and background about a bear god worshipped by the Kislevites.You needed the Trailer to figure out that in an army of Kislev would be... bears?

The last range of Kislev miniatures featured one bear, Boris' and the rest were riding horses. I fully expected the flanderisation as soon as the unit of Bear Cavalry showed up since there was no way they were going to stop at one unit/maybe character. Warmaster did have a unit of them, sure, but I don't recall bear-artillery and a giant-bear elemental and I'm sure every other item/spell will be bear-themed.


Well, I have the Citadel Journal 15 right in my hands now. Let's see... Every character can ride a bear. The Sons of Ursa, a cavalry unit, do it anyway. Then there're the Sibyrian beast tamers. With wolves. Or... bears. I think a cannon drawn by bears and an elemental in the shape of a bear are.... bearable.


Yep

An elemental Bear works for me as the whole point of the Ice Magic users is that they are directly linked to the land - so in extremis it manifesting itself is fine, also its not that far away from the huge ancestor spirits that were first mentioned in .....WFRP 1st ed, 2nd ed introudced more magical beings for Kislev in its own supplement

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.


There was Bear cavalry in Tuomas Pirinen's Kislev army list in Citadel Journal 15 (that was like 25 years ago), an old artwork of Boris Ursa riding a bear from John Blanche and more bears in Warmaster. Also the Tsar on bear model and background about a bear god worshipped by the Kislevites.You needed the Trailer to figure out that in an army of Kislev would be... bears?

The last range of Kislev miniatures featured one bear, Boris' and the rest were riding horses. I fully expected the flanderisation as soon as the unit of Bear Cavalry showed up since there was no way they were going to stop at one unit/maybe character. Warmaster did have a unit of them, sure, but I don't recall bear-artillery and a giant-bear elemental and I'm sure every other item/spell will be bear-themed.


Is it really flanderization though? The established Kislev lore, at least from what I can see looking at the wiki, heavily involved bears in the first place. Bears are a huge part of their society, with them having a religion involving a God of Bears who is usually depicted as a bear, and becoming a priest involves taming a bear. Consisting that their religion involves a bear and they're tied to Kislev society heavily, a giant ice bear as a manefestation of the land doesn't seem out of place, and neither does an ancient canon being towed by bears. While there are obviously more units involving them now, I don't see much of a chance compared to their importance before.
A bit, but it was so expected that it doesn't bother me too much. The canon could just have been a canon, or pulled by horses however. Bear imagery may be common, but in terms of its military, Kislev's most iconic units to date were dudes on horses with bows and dudes on horses with lances and wings on their backs - which I know are still in, but obviously overshadowed by big bear things. At least Kislev had the twin inspirations of "bears" and "ice", so that at least not everything is purely bear-based.
Speaking of big bear things though, the elemental bear is a bit much in my view - had expected a temporary spell effect that looks like a bear, but that thing is just enormous. It just made the Bloodthirster look like a Barbie doll. And that's exactly what adding extra bears and magic changes: not just the looks, but the balance of power, the odds of survival. When the armies of the Empire and Kislev largely consist of armed peasants who got a few hours of training before being handed a halberd or axe and told where to stand on the battlefield, their struggle against the forces of Chaos is heroic. When the Khornate demonic hell-machine monstrous cavalry are simply countered with units of monstrous bear cavalry, and the greater daemon of Khorne smashed to bits by a massive elemental bear... less so.


Could you not say the exact same thing about the Empire? Armies of the Empire that consist of ordinary mortal men is heroic....but then you get those monsterous calvary countered by elite soldiers on ferocious hippogrpyhs or greater daemons countered by Steam Tanks, Luminarks or massive Landships.

These are no doubt going to be the elite high-end units, pretty much every faction has some sort of powerful elite stuff consisting of either magical elements, highly skilled warriors with some extra-ordinary addition, or fantastical technology.
   
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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.


There was Bear cavalry in Tuomas Pirinen's Kislev army list in Citadel Journal 15 (that was like 25 years ago), an old artwork of Boris Ursa riding a bear from John Blanche and more bears in Warmaster. Also the Tsar on bear model and background about a bear god worshipped by the Kislevites.You needed the Trailer to figure out that in an army of Kislev would be... bears?

The last range of Kislev miniatures featured one bear, Boris' and the rest were riding horses. I fully expected the flanderisation as soon as the unit of Bear Cavalry showed up since there was no way they were going to stop at one unit/maybe character. Warmaster did have a unit of them, sure, but I don't recall bear-artillery and a giant-bear elemental and I'm sure every other item/spell will be bear-themed.


Is it really flanderization though? The established Kislev lore, at least from what I can see looking at the wiki, heavily involved bears in the first place. Bears are a huge part of their society, with them having a religion involving a God of Bears who is usually depicted as a bear, and becoming a priest involves taming a bear. Consisting that their religion involves a bear and they're tied to Kislev society heavily, a giant ice bear as a manefestation of the land doesn't seem out of place, and neither does an ancient canon being towed by bears. While there are obviously more units involving them now, I don't see much of a chance compared to their importance before.
A bit, but it was so expected that it doesn't bother me too much. The canon could just have been a canon, or pulled by horses however. Bear imagery may be common, but in terms of its military, Kislev's most iconic units to date were dudes on horses with bows and dudes on horses with lances and wings on their backs - which I know are still in, but obviously overshadowed by big bear things. At least Kislev had the twin inspirations of "bears" and "ice", so that at least not everything is purely bear-based.
Speaking of big bear things though, the elemental bear is a bit much in my view - had expected a temporary spell effect that looks like a bear, but that thing is just enormous. It just made the Bloodthirster look like a Barbie doll. And that's exactly what adding extra bears and magic changes: not just the looks, but the balance of power, the odds of survival. When the armies of the Empire and Kislev largely consist of armed peasants who got a few hours of training before being handed a halberd or axe and told where to stand on the battlefield, their struggle against the forces of Chaos is heroic. When the Khornate demonic hell-machine monstrous cavalry are simply countered with units of monstrous bear cavalry, and the greater daemon of Khorne smashed to bits by a massive elemental bear... less so.


Could you not say the exact same thing about the Empire? Armies of the Empire that consist of ordinary mortal men is heroic....but then you get those monsterous calvary countered by elite soldiers on ferocious hippogrpyhs or greater daemons countered by Steam Tanks, Luminarks or massive Landships.
Absolutely. So guess what my thoughts were on 8th ed's Empire armybook?
Steam Tanks of which there are only 8 still in working condition; good stuff. Griffons as unusual mounts for the highest nobility, love it. Elite infantry, meanwhile, are lads with big swords. The most unusual item available to a fairly common soldier being a particularly long rifle. The crème de la crème? Lads with as much armour as their horsies can carry armed with long pointy sticks.
In my day, you didn't recognize the greatest heroes of humanity because they had to ride the biggest creatures or be massive in size themselves. No, they had the most magnificent facial hair! If it was good enough for Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwarzhelm, it should be good enough for anyone!
   
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Cronch wrote:
@Zenithfleet: I think the word just evolved to mean low/high magic over time.
Anyway, what some empire-focused people miss out on is that the empire wasn't the norm in the old world. It was specifically the one place in the world that had magic controlled, technology replacing it slowly, and people living muddy, boring lives barring occasional beastman raid or chaos invasion. Even next town over in Bretonnia you had flying horses, immortal champions of the realm and prayers actually stopping cannon-balls from pulverizing knights. Go a bit further and you have an empire of undead ruled over by mummies. A bit further and you have the gleaming spires of ulthuan where dragons still roam (if in limited numbers!) and magic is still used commonly. Empire was the exception, not the norm.


Sure, there's all kinds of rainbow unicorn things in Bretonnia, but the fact that they're exclusively reserved for the rich i.e. nobility (including sainthood) makes it grimdark. Also, this is what makes it relatable and interesting, IMHO.

The most interaction an average Bretonnian would have with a Pegasus is clearing the dung off their hooves. As a highly polarized feudal sistem, Bretonnian regular joes have it much worse than in the Empire.

That said, I'd like to throw in a few thoughts on the general high-low discussion that's been going on. A lot of people tend to represent "low fantasy" as gratuitousmiseryporn as here it is probably the most evident (reasonably enough, nobody's a fan of that), but I'd argue that social realism (or coming close to it) is where it's at.

What I personally find lacking in what people generally agree to be "high" fantasy and abound in what we consider "low" fantasy is relatable and/or instinctively understandable cultural and sociological factors, specifics and problems, history and general foreign politics motivators.

I've already mentioned the Bretonnia thing. Empire of mummies? Great, I'm all for it actually, but they need to have an ostensible culture and raison-d'-etre (a society obsessed with eternal life and personality cults). Immortal, perfect high elves riding dragons? Amazing, but let them be crippled by their inner political backstabbing and superiority complex. Empire has it better than most humans in the world? Great, but it is also corrupt, colonizing, xenophobic and carelessly opportunistic on the whole.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/16 22:33:11


 
   
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West Lafayette, IN

 Dreamchild wrote:
Cronch wrote:
@Zenithfleet: I think the word just evolved to mean low/high magic over time.
Anyway, what some empire-focused people miss out on is that the empire wasn't the norm in the old world. It was specifically the one place in the world that had magic controlled, technology replacing it slowly, and people living muddy, boring lives barring occasional beastman raid or chaos invasion. Even next town over in Bretonnia you had flying horses, immortal champions of the realm and prayers actually stopping cannon-balls from pulverizing knights. Go a bit further and you have an empire of undead ruled over by mummies. A bit further and you have the gleaming spires of ulthuan where dragons still roam (if in limited numbers!) and magic is still used commonly. Empire was the exception, not the norm.


Sure, there's all kinds of rainbow unicorn things in Bretonnia, but the fact that they're exclusively reserved for the rich i.e. nobility (including sainthood) makes it grimdark. Also, this is what makes it relatable and interesting, IMHO.

The most interaction an average Bretonnian would have with a Pegasus is clearing the dung off their hooves. As a highly polarized feudal sistem, Bretonnian regular joes have it much worse than in the Empire.

That said, I'd like to throw in a few thoughts on the general high-low discussion that's been going on. A lot of people tend to represent "low fantasy" as mundane miseryporn as here it is probably the most evident, but generally what I personally find lacking in what people generally agree to be "high" fantasy and abound in what we consider "low" fantasy is relatable and/or instinctively understandable cultural and sociological factors, specifics and problems, history and general foreign politics motivators.

I've already mentioned the Bretonnia thing. Empire of mummies? Great, I'm all for it actually, but they need to have an ostensible culture and raison-d'-etre (a society obsessed with eternal life and personality cults). Immortal, perfect high elves riding dragons? Amazing, but let them be crippled by their inner political backstabbing and superiority complex. Empire has it better than most humans in the world? Great, but it is also corrupt, colonizing, xenophobic and carelessly opportunistic on the whole.


You just reminded me of how much I fething hate the Bretonnian tonal shift from 5th to 6th Edition...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/16 19:41:55


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