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Honestly, the biggest issue I have with these self-righteous folk who assume that GW's doing it alongside of their nightly kitten sacrifice to the Dark Powers seem to be under the impression that just because it's the Little Guy telling their side of the story, well it MUST be right!

Well who doesnt root for the little guy?

Read the OP again, pruge because of: A, B, and C
Ive never refuted that GW should not defend its IP, its how them dag nabbit sons of a goats go about it that has me up in arms.

yes i would prefer that they do it nicely and work with people,
(THEIR OWN FRECKEN FANS FOR FREACKN SAKES) rather than slaming 50 some odd C&D's in the mail.
If someone has broken the law, ie copy right law, then GW has every right to take steps, they have the right at any time to take steps with IP, copy right. etc. but why do they always take the steps that peeves off a good portion of the fans.


I mean come on.... were their fans.... why do they wanny do us dirty?!?! Work with the fan base, it aint hard.
I Just Cant feel the GW love anymore.
So call me self rightous, i dont mind. cause i know it just aint kittens thats gettin the knife.

I never root for the little guy because in the real world (tm) they never get the girl or win the day.

Okay. You're not getting it.

The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.

That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.

It doesn't matter how friendly GW makes it, they don't want PDFs of their rules or scans/copies of their artwork floating around. Float around too much or if even one minute claim isn't acted upon--they CAN lose their IP.

Look at George Romero's "Night of the Living Dead". Because of forgetting to put a copyright notice on the first few frames, it's public domain. That means I could go, take the original Night of the Living Dead and reedit it to be nothing but the "They're coming to get you Barbara!" scene for five hours...and there's nothing they could do about it, unless I mistakenly use a version that actually has the appropriate crediting. That's why you see all these different versions and remakes of it. Hell, Romero never even really saw payment from it until (I think) the late 80s.

I think GW should just take these guys to court. If they're innocent, they have nothing to fear, right?

Correct. But if it's just some guy posting from his mom's basement, he'd go broke with legal fees/travel expenses since GWUK filing the suit would mean he'd have to show up in a British court.

Hawkins wrote:If someone has broken the law, ie copy right law, then GW has every right to take steps, they have the right at any time to take steps with IP, copy right. etc. but why do they always take the steps that peeves off a good portion of the fans.

Exactly. It is uncalled for.
I've spoken to my brother about all this (my brother who currently works as a lawyer in Chicago) He says that 90% of the time, C&D letters are nothing but lawyers wanting to intimidate people into doing something that they have no legal obligation to do. In other words, more often than not they are just hot air. Empty threats distributed for the sole purpose of manipulation. It was my brothers professional, legal advice to ALWAYS ignore C&Ds as they are meaningless until somebody actually spends the money to file a law suit. GW would have to be 100% positive that they are completely justified in what they're doing in order to take legal action against everybody. Cause otherwise that many law suits would get expensive REALLY fast... I honestly believe that if people were to ignore these C&Ds, the worst GW would do is keep sending them, which costs them money...

Okay. So your point is...?

They took steps. It's done. It peeved the gits who do nothing but believe the little guy and assume that GW's being a kittenstomping monster, rather than actually read what the little guy had posted.

The guy admitted that he had posted PDFs of the rules, rules summaries and other copywritten/outdated material. Sounds pretty illegal to me.

Kanluwen wrote:Correct. But if it's just some guy posting from his mom's basement, he'd go broke with legal fees/travel expenses since GWUK filing the suit would mean he'd have to show up in a British court.

Not to mention that it'd take quite a bit of money on GW's part 1-10 million (USD) per lawsuit. It's not worth the trouble as long as they're following the C&D.

Kanluwen wrote:Okay. You're not getting it.

The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.

That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.

It doesn't matter how friendly GW makes it, they don't want PDFs of their rules or scans/copies of their artwork floating around. Float around too much or if even one minute claim isn't acted upon--they CAN lose their IP.

Look at George Romero's "Night of the Living Dead". Because of forgetting to put a copyright notice on the first few frames, it's public domain. That means I could go, take the original Night of the Living Dead and reedit it to be nothing but the "They're coming to get you Barbara!" scene for five hours...and there's nothing they could do about it, unless I mistakenly use a version that actually has the appropriate crediting. That's why you see all these different versions and remakes of it. Hell, Romero never even really saw payment from it until (I think) the late 80s.

Actually i think were both not getting it, were tryin to argue the same thing to each other, your saying:
The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.
im saying:
If someone has broken the law, ie copy right law, then GW has every right to take steps, they have the right at any time to take steps with IP, copy right.

where were disagreeing is in the fact that i want a nice happy thoughfull loving and above all cuddly carnifax GW, where you just dont care so long as they protect their IP. our points are moot, were argueing over one another.
the only point of contention we really have is i want the arschgigers at GW to be nice and fan friendly and im willing to boycott the GW to make my point. and you want?.... what?

Oh and 'Git' is uncalled for. keep it civil please.

Kanluwen wrote:Okay. You're not getting it.

The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.

That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.

You'll recieve no argument from me for publishing other people's material. But instead of concentrating on that clear example lets look at the something a bit less straightforward - not everyone who has received a C&D has so obviously infringed IP. They've gone for several Bloodbowl sites online for "threatening their IP" even though they've not addressed this threat for 10 years in some cases. Librarian Online had to remove their eagle because it looked a bit like GWs, apparently Ultraforge have had to remove models from sale because they resemble some of GWs stuff and apparently even Hasslefree have had a letter making a fuss. I mean that's not copying models and reproduction, it's GW getting a bee in their bonnet about other people doing stuff looking like theirs and making a stink even if their stuff is generic enough that they probably couldn't make it stick in court. They're just using their weight to get their way.

Kanluwen wrote:... he'd go broke with legal fees/travel expenses since GWUK filing the suit would mean he'd have to show up in a British court.

Except Civil cases aren't normally enforced internationally, and the changes of GW successfully having BasementGuy extradited for criminal proceedings is negligible.

Which makes me confident in saying to any member of GW legal that I invite them to start the shenannigans about my tattoo. Commissioned art performed, stored, and housed within the US border would make one heck of a case that the US laws apply. Arguably rules hosted and posted in the US would be subject to US law. The discovery process in determining the jurisdiction of the case should be prohibitively expensive.

I'm still stunned we've seen so few "see you in court" responses.

the only point of contention we really have is i want the arschgigers at GW to be nice and fan friendly and im willing to boycott the GW to make my point.

Wait. Cursing in German in allowed here?

Scheiße!

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Okay. You're not getting it.

The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.

That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.

You'll recieve no argument from me for publishing other people's material. But instead of concentrating on that clear example lets look at the something a bit less straightforward - not everyone who has received a C&D has so obviously infringed IP. They've gone for several Bloodbowl sites online for "threatening their IP" even though they've not addressed this threat for 10 years in some cases. Librarian Online had to remove their eagle because it looked a bit like GWs, apparently Ultraforge have had to remove models from sale because they resemble some of GWs stuff and apparently even Hasslefree have had a letter making a fuss. I mean that's not copying models and reproduction, it's GW getting a bee in their bonnet about other people doing stuff looking like theirs and making a stink even if their stuff is generic enough that they probably couldn't make it stick in court. They're just using their weight to get their way.

agreed.
i didnt know hasslefree got hit too. wheres that coming from? linky?

As far as I understand it, the BGG purge has been all-encompassing. Any file in a BGG entry of a GW product has been removed. The majority of these files were not pdfs or scans of the rules- or sourcebooks but player aids (like the play sheets GW used to give away for free themselves), variant rules and other things that would have no ill effect on the sales of rulessets and miniatures, but would rather encourage their purchase. In addition, GW has always been a company living on "word of mouth". Do they fail to see the internet is the new and ideal tool for that? Have they any idea how much their own site is lacking in that area and how no one site can accomplish what 6+ of them can?
I wouldn't undervalue BGG's value in promoting games (for free). This is seriously bad PR for GW. A lot of the removed stuff was a rather grey area considering IP, and parts of GW's policy on copyright and trademarks is BS. They live in their own little world.

In this case, it would have been more apropriate and better from a PR standpoint to be more discriminate with the C&D request, i.e. "remove all full rules descriptions"... which I find odd when it comes to the specialist games with their free (open gaming? fair use?) rulebooks and supplements+user created material. BGG was a nice place to prevent that bandwith theft issue.

No, I believe a nice "Thank you very much Board Game Geek, keep up the good work" letter would be in place!

There is no other big gaming company with entries and user-made content on BGG who has taken similar action to protect its IP, most of GW's rivals encourage it within broader limits. There are even companies who incorporate fan-stuff into their official line with credit where it's due!

And to finish... type in "Warhammer pdf" in google and you'll have all codexes, army books and rulebooks you want as torrents... That's what GW's lawyers should be dealing with instead of alienating and threatening the people who spend a lot of their free time to help them sell miniatures and games and keep their old games alive and kicking. If it hadn't been for BGG, Space Hulk and Blood Bowl would have been restricted to the normal GW audience, especially Space Hulk 3d ed. introduced a lot of people to the 40k universe, but not many of them will go beyond Space Hulk because of the C&D.
But GW lives in it's own little world where plastic is the new metal and internet is still something from a science fiction movie that has not even been filmed yet.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

the only point of contention we really have is i want the arschgigers at GW to be nice and fan friendly and im willing to boycott the GW to make my point.

Wait. Cursing in German in allowed here?

Scheiße!

it is if you spell it wrong, and its not directed at a person on the forum more importantly.

THIS JUST IN!!!! PREPARE TO NERDRAGE!!!

http://mygamesworkshop.weebly.com/blog.html no longer exists!!!

RIP, "bonbaonbardlements" and "Assault on my floor", RIP.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Okay. You're not getting it.

The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.

That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.

You'll recieve no argument from me for publishing other people's material. But instead of concentrating on that clear example lets look at the something a bit less straightforward - not everyone who has received a C&D has so obviously infringed IP. They've gone for several Bloodbowl sites online for "threatening their IP" even though they've not addressed this threat for 10 years in some cases. Librarian Online had to remove their eagle because it looked a bit like GWs, apparently Ultraforge have had to remove models from sale because they resemble some of GWs stuff and apparently even Hasslefree have had a letter making a fuss. I mean that's not copying models and reproduction, it's GW getting a bee in their bonnet about other people doing stuff looking like theirs and making a stink even if their stuff is generic enough that they probably couldn't make it stick in court. They're just using their weight to get their way.

They actually addressed the point about the timeframe in the posted guidelines they want you to follow:

They're fine letting sleeping dogs lie provided you're not posting actual rules. But if you're using titles like "The Blood Bowl Headquarters" or "Your Source For All Things Blood Bowly"--expect them to get annoyed, since that 'right' is reserved for them and anyone who pays to license out the material from them.

From what I saw of some of those Blood Bowl sites, they had tags like that...rather than "Your Unofficial Bloodbowl Headquarters" or "Your Unofficial Source for Blood Bowling Goodery".
Librarian Online's eagle was EXACTLY like GW's. If the LO had done it in the style of the Romans or Czars(ex: a solid outline, with the details filled in using sketching/art)...I don't think GW had a problem. But when they broke the wings up and ended up with that very distinctive cutout silhouette...that's when GW got annoyed.

I can't really comment on Ultraforge, but if I remember right the model in question had some very Nurgle iconography on it(the triple buboes icon and the stylized fly icon, from what I recall of the WIP). Hasslefree is one of those companies that flies real close to the sun, from what I've seen. I'd have to know exactly what models they're having issues with, etc.

And yeah. They're using their weight to get their way. Y'know. The whole legal system has an issue with copyright infringement. Go figure.

And as for it being tried in civil court...

Copyright infringement isn't a matter for civil court once you start profiting from it, either through donations, ad support, or flatout selling models. That'd probably be a criminal case. I'd have to look up the exacts of the matter under British and International Copyright Law.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:THIS JUST IN!!!! PREPARE TO NERDRAGE!!!

http://mygamesworkshop.weebly.com/blog.html no longer exists!!!

RIP, "bonbaonbardlements" and "Assault on my floor", RIP.

Ummmm. how about we wait and see if the sites is just down first..... AND THEN WE CAN NERDRAGE....... huummmmmm?

BrookM wrote:I never root for the little guy because in the real world (tm) they never get the girl or win the day.

mourn for my love life then...

lord marcus wrote:

BrookM wrote:I never root for the little guy because in the real world (tm) they never get the girl or win the day.

mourn for my love life then...

And mine....
*looks down* right little guy?!
[size=9](sorry it was there i had to take the shot.... im so week)[/size]

Back to topic:
Kanluwen : your saying the same thing over and over, again and again. We understand your point. People in the next forum can hear you.
For the love of god why are you argueing? Your not convincing anyone of anything here, most have acknolaged your IP issue. its not even a point anymore.
Yes ok, people did things iligally, C&D letter went out. and as well they should have. but not everyone here thinks ALL the C&Ds were called for.
What is it actually that you want? and why do you have such a problem with us boycotting GW over its actions against those that some of us feel were unjustly targeted?? (appologies to those that are not).
your acusing people of just not getting it, but man if we havent got what your saying yet, we aint never gonna get it or just plain aint intrested.
the only thing left to say is about Hassle free. your dead wrong there, inform yourself by taking a walk thru the website.

Hawkins wrote:

lord marcus wrote:

BrookM wrote:I never root for the little guy because in the real world (tm) they never get the girl or win the day.

mourn for my love life then...

And mine....
*looks down* right little guy?!
[size=9](sorry it was there i had to take the shot.... im so week)[/size]

Back to topic:
Kanluwen : your saying the same thing over and over, again and again. We understand your point. People in the next forum can hear you.
For the love of god why are you argueing? Your not convincing anyone of anything here, most have acknolaged your IP issue. its not even a point anymore.
Yes ok, people did things iligally, C&D letter went out. and as well they should have. but not everyone here thinks ALL the C&Ds were called for.
What is it actually that you want? and why do you have such a problem with us boycotting GW over its actions against those that some of us feel were unjustly targeted?? (appologies to those that are not).
your acusing people of just not getting it, but man if we havent got what your saying yet, we aint never gonna get it or just plain aint intrested.
the only thing left to say is about Hassle free. your dead wrong there, inform yourself by taking a walk thru the website.

You are absolutely right.

Yes ok, people did things iligally, C&D letter went out. and as well they should have. but not everyone here thinks ALL the C&Ds were called for.

They shouldn't tell you to knock it off if you're posting things illegally. Obviously, that's immoral!

Think through your statement again and then get back to me.
There's NO problem whatsoever with boycotting GW over its actions. Just stop assuming that it's only GW at fault here. I don't see anyone boycotting BGG for hosting illegal material.

In fact, I think I'll do that. Screw you BGG! You're not getting my intarwebz!

And wow. I forgot what a ripoff factory Hasslefree is.

Eve, Dionne, Bubba Ho-Tep knockoff, Sin City knockoffs, Hot Fuzz knockoffs, the Aliens knockoffs(with your choice of pulse rifle OR G36C, for less copyright infringement!) and Shaun of the Dead knockoffs.

ok lets start here.:

Yes ok, people did things iligally, C&D letter went out. and as well they should have. but not everyone here thinks ALL the C&Ds were called for.

They shouldn't tell you to knock it off if you're posting things illegally. Obviously, that's immoral!

-Who said that?, its 2 seperate sentances.
Look before you accuse, i was agreeing with ya in the first part. .
open your eyes. its the second part thats on a intirely different tract.
one you totaly still fail to grasp. but thats ok you dont need to anymore.

next: boycott? if ya want to, go hard.

As for HF: sure, everything you mentioned.
but where in 7 hells is the GW infringement we were talking about?

Any thing else you wana get off your chest?

ok ive stayed up long enough on this. im goin to bed. 5 comes early.

Kanluwen wrote:And wow. I forgot what a ripoff factory Hasslefree is.

Eve, Dionne, Bubba Ho-Tep knockoff, Sin City knockoffs, Hot Fuzz knockoffs, the Aliens knockoffs(with your choice of pulse rifle OR G36C, for less copyright infringement!) and Shaun of the Dead knockoffs.

And yet none of them have an issue with little companies doing spoofs of their stuff, they specifically avoid using copyright names. Lots of miniatures companies do this unmolested such as Heresy.

So I assume that GW aren't taking HF to task for other people's IPs, so what of their stuff violates GW IP? I'm fairly familiar with HF's output and similarities to GW's stuff is tenuous at best, unless they are going to take on everyone who produces fantasy miniatures.

I think the issue with Hasslefree is that it wouldn't really register on alot of the companies that they're ripping off's radar.

I don't really see James Cameron having a goon squad patrolling the Intarwebz looking for a Colonial Marine knockoff, do you?

And as for Hawkins...

Eurgh. The depths of your ignorance astonishes me.

The C&Ds were blanket C&Ds sent to ANYONE who had GW material posted, copyright protected names/imagery, or was engaging in bandwidth theft(that includes direct linking their images by the way. Rehost it if you want, credit it properly at the same time).

Think about that for a moment.

Kanluwen wrote:
They shouldn't tell you to knock it off if you're posting things illegally. Obviously, that's immoral!
Think through your statement again and then get back to me.
And wow. I forgot what a ripoff factory Hasslefree is.
Eve, Dionne, Bubba Ho-Tep knockoff, Sin City knockoffs, Hot Fuzz knockoffs, the Aliens knockoffs(with your choice of pulse rifle OR G36C, for less copyright infringement!) and Shaun of the Dead knockoffs.

Well then, lets hope noone knocks off MMs Eternal Champion, Dune, Aliens, JRR Tolkien, The lost world, Terminator... oh wait now! Did you ever read the names they used to give the figures back in the day, when each imperial guardsman or space pirate or chaos thug got his or her own name? Troopers Laurel and Hardy for example?

Seriously, are you getting paid by uncle jervis to spam this thread?

Again..and AGAIN...
IT IS NOT ARGUED THAT GW HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO PROTECT THEIR COPYRIGHT, IT IS CALLED INTO QUESTION THAT THEY ARE TAKING A HEAVY HANDED AND AGGRESSIVE STANCE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EASILY REPLACED WITH A MORE DIPLOMATIC LINE OF COMMUNICATION THAT WOULD NOT HAVE RESULTED IN THE GAKSTORM THEY STIRRED UP.

You have argued for the absolute rights of GW in respect of copyright and trademark and IP. We don't care about that, we care about how they did it. How they attacked their own fanbase and online community and are still attacking it.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
They shouldn't tell you to knock it off if you're posting things illegally. Obviously, that's immoral!
Think through your statement again and then get back to me.
And wow. I forgot what a ripoff factory Hasslefree is.
Eve, Dionne, Bubba Ho-Tep knockoff, Sin City knockoffs, Hot Fuzz knockoffs, the Aliens knockoffs(with your choice of pulse rifle OR G36C, for less copyright infringement!) and Shaun of the Dead knockoffs.

Well then, lets hope noone knocks off MMs Eternal Champion, Dune, Aliens, JRR Tolkien, The lost world, Terminator... oh wait now! Did you ever read the names they used to give the figures back in the day, when each imperial guardsman or space pirate or chaos thug got his or her own name? Troopers Laurel and Hardy for example?

Seriously, are you getting paid by uncle jervis to spam this thread?

Again..and AGAIN...
IT IS NOT ARGUED THAT GW HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO PROTECT THEIR COPYRIGHT, IT IS CALLED INTO QUESTION THAT THEY ARE TAKING A HEAVY HANDED AND AGGRESSIVE STANCE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EASILY REPLACED WITH A MORE DIPLOMATIC LINE OF COMMUNICATION THAT WOULD NOT HAVE RESULTED IN THE GAKSTORM THEY STIRRED UP.

You have argued for the absolute rights of GW in respect of copyright and trademark and IP. We don't care about that, we care about how they did it. How they attacked their own fanbase and online community and are still attacking it.

Let's go through the list:
Eternal Champion? Licensed to GW, for quite awhile actually. A parody/homage isn't the same as infringement.
JRR Tolkien? Same deal, even back in the day.
Dune, Aliens, The Lost World and Terminator fall under the parody/homage bit also. Maybe back in the 80s when GW was getting off the ground you'd have a case for arguing that, but the background has evolved since.

And you're absolutely right, that ONCE AGAIN, back in that timeframe of the 80s/early 90s.
GW did exactly what Hasslefree is doing now.

And man, if I was getting paid to "spam", as you put it MGS--you can bet your life I wouldn't be actually explaining my position/reasoning.

I'd just be posting tripe like yourself.

And what kind of communication do you want?
The "polite and respectful way" is sitting at the bottom of their site, under the "Legal" link. You start a website and don't follow their instructions?

Too fething bad for you.

Kanluwen wrote:. I don't see anyone boycotting BGG for hosting illegal material.

Maybe that's because they have rules about copyrighted material which comes down to
These rules are avidly enforced by the admins. If that hasn't been the case (could be a few OOP rules which are not even GW trademarks anymore), they could have only removed those files, rather than removing everything indiscriminately. At the moment I am unsure about GW's demands to BGG. It could be possible that the Admins were terrified and overreacted...

I will state one more time, that this Webspace Crusade is in several cases (i.e. site followed the rules of GW and copyright law to best ability) an extremely rediculous action, disastrous for PR, customer loyalty and brand image in the BGG community and the other sites and their members which received these messages.

Games Workshop is apparently in some sort of panic, and lashes out at the easy targets, those who will comply to their demands out of fear, because they lack the funds to resist these heavy handed and in many cases not quite justified threats by GW.

I understand GW wanting to protect domain names, C&D orders can do that, but there are other ways (use the internet like you're supposed to GW! register them properly)
It's perfectly within the law that they protect the IP that is their literature and original art, but in the business they are in (miniature gaming) fan generated content, derivative original material available for free and useless without Games Workshop's original product, aids the company as much as the customer. GW failed a crucial stupidity test here IMO.

Okay, one point to get clear to you Herohammer:

Just because it's OOP does not mean it's still not GW IP. There's also a great amount of OOP games that were done under license, which GW still would be obligated to protect or be held liable.

How are C&D letters heavy handed?

Would the nerds raging over this been happy if GW had sent Christmas cards along with 5 pounds of chocolate and inside the card it read "Dear whoever it may concern, we really would appreciate it if you would change your site name/remove our pics/stop deep-linking to our material to steal bandwith because it annoys us. To make us seem nice and fair here is 5 pounds of the finest chocolates known to man and a holiday card. Thank you for your cooperation."

Look at it this way, if you pirate music and movies and are caught at it you don't get a C&D, you get a guy in a black suit leading a team of Feds to turn your house upside down and take your computer and anything else related to that piracy and you get to go for a ride to the courthouse in handcuffs.