Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@kinaluwen: of course, I agree, that's actually what I meant; if such files were on that site, by all means, remove those. The reason I am upset is because the rest of a fount of LEGAL in some cases ENDORSED BY GAMES WORKSHOP THEMSELVES material got removed also.

My main beef is that it is so indiscriminate and in many cases not justified, as in: it does not compare at all to music/movie piracy.

In a lot of situations, the creator of the fan material can be likened to a Cover Band or some one who writes a new song inspired by another already commercially available work.

ultimately what people need to do is start using Russian hosting services for this kind of stuff.

Kanluwen wrote:
Let's go through the list:
Eternal Champion? Licensed to GW, for quite awhile actually. A parody/homage isn't the same as infringement.
JRR Tolkien? Same deal, even back in the day.
Dune, Aliens, The Lost World and Terminator fall under the parody/homage bit also. Maybe back in the 80s when GW was getting off the ground you'd have a case for arguing that, but the background has evolved since.

And you're absolutely right, that ONCE AGAIN, back in that timeframe of the 80s/early 90s.
GW did exactly what Hasslefree is doing now.

And man, if I was getting paid to "spam", as you put it MGS--you can bet your life I wouldn't be actually explaining my position/reasoning.

I'd just be posting tripe like yourself.

And what kind of communication do you want?
The "polite and respectful way" is sitting at the bottom of their site, under the "Legal" link. You start a website and don't follow their instructions?

Too fething bad for you.

Too bad for the hobby actually. Too bad for the community that a leading light corporation can't act with vision and enlightened business acumen and instead acts like it's being steered by gordon gekko. To bad that GW couldn't have worked on a package to enable instead of disable.

Far too bad that the only people they can get to explain what they're doing are sycophants with no actual rational for the decision other than 'well they can and business is a tough thing and that's why they did it'.

And most laughable is your entirely feeble defence of the difference between a 'parody/homage' and a 'ripoff factory'. That really takes the prize for 'tripe' mate.

Hawkins wrote: i didnt know hasslefree got hit too. wheres that coming from? linky?

I don't think the Hasslfree thing was part of the recent wave of C&D's. Kev White mentioned on Frothers that he had received two C&Ds from GW a while back, but wasn't saying which minis they were for.

Ex GW employees are a sore spot for them. They know that the employees were once the ones that actually came out with the material and if any person on earth that might take GW to task on this C and D foolishness, it would be the ex employees.

Like I said before, show me where the basement jacks were making money off of GW's stuff on a fan site?
When specialist games went tits up, thats when GW opened the floodgate to go ahead and encourage the back door gaming.

The gaming is open season if people want to play it. NOW GW decided out of the blue to MOTE the eye? Like I said before, laughable at best seeing as to the beginnings of this company.

The executions of the C and D were against fan sites. Show again where they were making profits off of the material that fans were playing OP games with that they wanted to play.

Your train of thought runs the gambit of "Oh, GW has the IP they have the right to do this to fans and why is everyone excited, to GW was the victim here."

Seriously, the games were OP. Out of Production. What exactly do you expect fans to do to play these games?
How much did those rules cost to someone who wnated to start playing? Nothing. What is needed to play the games? GW minis for a team, then after the thought I might want to go to Fee Bay and get some rules or other books to play some more.

All the while you downplay the so called Nerdrage, but are losing site of the company being a gaming company. Games being the operative word here.

Show me where the fan sites made money, I say sure, not a problem, Show me where GW is overhanded seeing as you can get these games and materials to play them off of the net and that they encourage you to "Die roll off " for disagreements for the games, and I throw the B.S. Flag on the play.

"Hobby game" means that the game is a hobby related product. They have as much legal right to shutting fans down as packing sand for being d bags.



Guess that will show you for playing thier game and liking it. Too bad it was OP, now you don't get the same right to play as if it was Lord of the Rings- the frodo edition.

Grot 6 wrote:Guess that will show you for playing thier game and liking it. Too bad it was OP, now you don't get the same right to play as if it was Lord of the Rings- the frodo edition.

How does it being out of production stop you from playing the game? If you already have it, and like it, you can go on playing it.

If you don't already have it, and don't know anyone who does, it's not the end of the world if you can't download it from the internet. There are plenty of other games out there.

Because OOP automatically means "Hey, Public Domain baby!"...despite the product still being registered trademarks/copyright material I guess.


@ MGS. I can see that this is a sore spot for you. Let me put it simply:

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm in the camp that feels that they're not doing this out of malice, but acting upon the advice of their team of Legal Ninja Experts(however thoroughly and ridiculously terrible at public relations those Experts may be).


Can we agree on that bit at least?

On the notion of the "ripoff factory", I couched my statement badly.

Hasslefree is doing exactly what GW did back in the day(finding itself a niche, filling it, and clinging on for dear life). I have heard NOTHING of Hasslefree being sent a C&D with this newest wave. So that point is irrelevant either way.

insaniak wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:Guess that will show you for playing thier game and liking it. Too bad it was OP, now you don't get the same right to play as if it was Lord of the Rings- the frodo edition.

How does it being out of production stop you from playing the game? If you already have it, and like it, you can go on playing it.

If you don't already have it, and don't know anyone who does, it's not the end of the world if you can't download it from the internet. There are plenty of other games out there.

???


Little Johnny goes to FeeBay and buys a copy of Warhammer Quest for 5 bucks from Sid666 and it is missing a rulebook. Johnny has heard of how fun said game was from

Grognard-Joe over on DakkaDakka (TM ) makes every effort to get the rulebook. He gets it from BGG and plays a hell of a game with three of his little pals that as

well had a hell of a time, there by each going thier seperate ways with game, fresh in thier mind. They in turn tell a couple of thier pals, who get a copy of the rules from Little

Johnny, get a copy from BGG, and make every effort to get them from a second or third hand fan sites, from other fans of GW's game Warhammer Quest.

2 kids go down to thier LGS and get a couple of boxes and blisters of GW figs to play the game which, by the way, Little Johhny made up a new scenario based on fighting a

hordeof Skaven, Undead, and Chaos warriors. ( Of course there are no models for Warhammer Quest, so Johnny buys a couple of boxes of the said enemies) has an even

grander time playing his neat scenario, which he posts on his blog.

His little warhammer club, which he has named Knights of Say What?!?!? and gains a couple more players. Because of this OOP game, we now have about four or five new

players. They get more and more product and ect.ect.ect. Until, they get a C and D letter in the mail, based on the Black and White documentation provided by GW's family

friendly Legal team.

Now we have about ten or so players with the egg on the face look, and a bad taste in thier mouth with the very same company that they had a heck of a time with, cutting them off at the knees for playing a game with GW stuff. ( Do you really think that these guys and thier pals that they tell thier tale to are going to want anything to do with GW ever again?) What about when they come back over to Dakka Dakka and tell thier tale ?

In Business, One guy might tell his friend about a good experience with a company. In The case of a crappy experience, he will tell EVERYONE.

Now, if this isn't how the Scenario for the gamer that wants to play an OOP game plays out, it is going to be similar.

I could see if the game was a outright rip off, but it is OOP. How else do these people expect players to play?

Want a couple of examples of how GW has mislead intent by Encouraging people to play the games?


[/url] http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/[url]

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=cat1290025&categoryId=1100014&aId=5300012

http://hexalon.wordpress.com/2006/10/22/specialist-games-magazine-goes-monthly/

And THIS is just off the top of my head.

If they are making money off of the product, sure.. Whatever.

But these are all fan sites and the gamers in question could as easily be Dakka Dakka gamers, ( Such as the Necromunda spin off game here) to an outright game of Battlefleet Gothic, being played in a P and P game of Rogue Trader.

Kanluwen wrote:..I'm in the camp that feels that they're not doing this out of malice, but acting upon the advice of their team of Legal Ninja Experts(however thoroughly and ridiculously terrible at public relations those Experts may be). Can we agree on that bit at least?

I've been with MSG on this. I don't understand most of your arguments. Here you're saying we have different opinions, then you ask to agree on this one little piece of information which hasn't been the theme of the thread (at least as I've read it). This paradigm which you propose is not in question. It's about the intelligence of their (GW's) decisions in relation to the hobby community.

That's the point of contention, as I've been understanding it, between the "Apologists" and those crazy "Anti-GW Jihadis".

Grot 6, here's another version of that story:


Little Johnny goes to FeeBay and buys a copy of Warhammer Quest for 5 bucks from Sid666 and it is missing a rulebook. Johnny has heard of how fun said game was from Grognard-Joe over on DakkaDakka (TM ), and so keeps an eye out for it, and eventually manages to nab a copy of the rules from ebay as well.

He plays a hell of a game with three of his little pals, who also had a hell of a time, there by each going thier seperate ways with game, fresh in thier mind. They in turn tell a couple of thier pals, who either find their own copies on ebay or other trading sites, or play in groups where at least one of them has the game.

2 kids go down to thier LGS and get a couple of boxes and blisters of GW figs to play the game which, by the way, Little Johhny made up a new scenario based on fighting a horde of Skaven, Undead, and Chaos warriors. ( Of course there are no models for Warhammer Quest, so Johnny buys a couple of boxes of the said enemies) has an even grander time playing his neat scenario, which he posts on his blog, being careful to include page references to the rulebook rather than copying anything directly from it.

Johnny and his friends have an OOP game that they can enjoy playing for as long as they want, other people playing the same game can download the scenario, and everybody wins.

I could see if the game was a outright rip off, but it is OOP. How else do these people expect players to play?

They don't. If they wanted you to play it, they would sell it.

They want you to play WHFB or LOTR instead.

YMMV.

The point being, Fan Sites.
which by the way that there are literally thousands and then some, depending on game of your choosing.
small example-

http://www.ask.com/web?qsrc=2417&o=13992&l=dis&q=Warhammer+Quest+fan+sites

http://www.ask.com/web?qsrc=2417&o=13992&l=dis&q=Warhammer+40K+fan+sites

http://www.ask.com/web?qsrc=2417&o=13992&l=dis&q=Necromunda+fan+sites

http://www.ask.com/web?qsrc=2417&o=13992&l=dis&q=Mordhiem+fan+sites

http://www.ask.com/web?l=dis&o=13992&qsrc=2873&q=youtube-40K

http://www.ask.com/web?qsrc=2417&o=13992&l=dis&q=FF+Rogue+Trader+P+and+P+game-+fan+sites

Now you have the two stories coming to an equal or at least similar direction, either getting the rules through one of a million ways, or waiting until Little Johnny turns into Grognard Johnny, where he can come on back to DakkaDakka(TM ) and rant about how he got shafted as a younster from playing any of a number of Specialist Games, Out of Production GW games, or anything else that falls into the catagory of basicly- an old game that is available on the internet that is going to get shafted because of Legal technicality.

Like I said. Fan sites- Non money making, but out there in web land for those who want to look to find

Basic no frills point- GW is cutting off its nose to spite its face on this issue.

Grot 6 wrote:Now you have the two stories coming to an equal or at least similar direction, either getting the rules through one of a million ways, or waiting until Little Johnny turns into Grognard Johnny, where he can come on back to DakkaDakka(TM ) and rant about how he got shafted as a younster from playing any of a number of Specialist Games, Out of Production GW games, or anything else that falls into the catagory of basicly- an old game that is available on the internet that is going to get shafted because of Legal technicality.

This isn't about a legal technicality, though. It's about GW, as the owners of a given property, choosing when and how that property will be made available to the public.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be fantastic if all of GW's OOP games were made available for free download. But the choice to do so, as has been pointed out a couple of times in this thread, is GW's.

GW have (and have had since, like, forever) a list of things on their website that they do and don't want fansites to do. If you're setting up a fansite and don't go looking for that sort of document first, then you have only yourself to blame when GW come knocking.

If you see that document and choose to ignore it, again, you have only yourself to blame. And if you chose to ignore the document and did so because you feel it isn't actually legally relevant, then you also shouldn't feel that you have anything to worry about from the C&D letter you get as a result.


So, as I see it, fansites that receive C&D letters over their content really have two sensible options: They can accept that they weren't following the rules and capitulate, or they can choose to believe that the C&D letter has no legal backing and ignore it. Either way, frankly I'm not seeing a reason for all of the angst that's getting thrown around the internet over it.

insaniak wrote:So, as I see it, fansites that receive C&D letters over their content really have two sensible options: They can accept that they weren't following the rules and capitulate, or they can choose to believe that the C&D letter has no legal backing and ignore it. Either way, frankly I'm not seeing a reason for all of the angst that's getting thrown around the internet over it.

I agree, but don't you see the answer in your own puzzle? Angst flying is from people who wished or wanted the C&D recipients to choose the latter of your options-instead of the former.

Er no. His point is that if you're going to ignore the rules in the first place, you don't get to moan about it later.

Kind of like if you get arrested for drunk driving/talking on the phone/running a red light. It's your own damned fault, deal with it.

Kanluwen wrote:Er no. His point is that if you're going to ignore the rules in the first place, you don't get to moan about it later.

But the victims (C&D recipients) are not the ones moaning about it.

Actually, they were. BGG had a huge post about how it was "unfair" that he was asked to take down a bunch of OOP material or homemade rules that had questionable content(read: the actual rules) written in there.

Then we had the Blood Bowl site that was going to close down after 9-10 years because he had to change the domain name, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:Because OOP automatically means "Hey, Public Domain baby!"...despite the product still being registered trademarks/copyright material I guess.

Nothing becomes public domain because it is out of print.

That's the point, Mikhaila It's a misguided ideal that a lot of these smaller sites have clung to.

That's right Kanluwen. As GW wants, the sooner these fan sites realise that they should actually support those companies who *encourage* them, and remove all GW content (as far reaching as BGG) the better.

Because forcing them to remove out of production(with the potential for renewal through FFG) content is obviously a huge downside to the fans who already owned the stuff, rather than the slackjawed basement dwellers who whine when they have to hit up eBay or find a friend with a copy.

Kanluwen wrote:That's the point of contention, as I've been understanding it, between the "Apologists" and those crazy "Anti-GW Jihadis".

Id put it a diffenent way but im not intrested in a suspension.

As far as this has gone, your right on just one point, there are 2 basic camps.

Nothing youve come up with changes in my mind that GW Hasent earned a boycott for 'SOME' of its actions, an not just the IP related ones. at this point its stuborn chin time. i WILL be supporting MGS's boycott, have been supporting it, and will be extending it.
GW imo doesnt deserve my buisness this holiday season. i'll take it tp HF, PP, and PI instead. will it help? na i dont know, dont reallly care either as i dout GW will be swayed from their ivory tower..
But i will feel better for the doing. just as GW has chosen its method of attacks on fan sites, so do i choose not to support those attacks by way of boycott.


we can also agree to disagree

Nuff said from me. off to work now.

Precisely.

It is not about GW 'feeling the pinch' since, as we've been discussing, they are woefully out of touch with the community and if they are made aware of people voicing their dislike of GW's tactics at all, it is most likely they will be dismissed as the product of 'that internet thing where people hate us'.

It is all about your decision as a consumer. Your right to spend your money with a company and your choice to decide on a company that attacks it's own fanbase, bullies small indy companies and shows a staggering amount of arrogance to it's customers...or just take your money elsewhere, instead of holding off buying that GW product for a month, why not buy it second hand from Ebay or even better, pick up another product and support one of the smaller companies.

In light of what's happened to Ultraforge, I'd love to see a few folks here place their Christmas order with that husband and wife business.

Support the hobby, not the corporation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
@ MGS. I can see that this is a sore spot for you. Let me put it simply:

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm in the camp that feels that they're not doing this out of malice, but acting upon the advice of their team of Legal Ninja Experts(however thoroughly and ridiculously terrible at public relations those Experts may be).

We agree that they aren't doing it out of malice, but can we also agree that they chose a heavy handed and PR shoddy approach? Because that's what I've been arguing for these pages, the agreement that their actions were detrimental to the hobby and aggressive, often to the very community that has supported the company.

As I've said in several posts, a mutually complimentary agreement could have been reached if they had made the effort, a caveat statement, support from GW and fully open compliance from the site owners that what they are carrying belongs ultimately to GW.

The very act would show GW as magnanimous and the Site Owners as supporting the rightful ownership by GW, which would have proven excellent supporting evidence if they ever encounter a real live counterfeiter, since they really haven't so far with what's presented here in the C&Ds.

GW has shown woeful lack of common sense and a wilful disregard for their own fans and customers.

jabbakahut wrote:But the victims (C&D recipients) are not the ones moaning about it.

Calling them victims is an insult. They're either fools or criminals. A victim is someone punished needlessly, these people have no pretensions of innocence.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:We agree that they aren't doing it out of malice, but can we also agree that they chose a heavy handed and PR shoddy approach? Because that's what I've been arguing for these pages, the agreement that their actions were detrimental to the hobby and aggressive, often to the very community that has supported the company.

Bad PR doesn't matter, because we're not GW's intended audience. That dubious honor is bestowed on the ankle-biters who think White Dwarf is an awesome magazine and who buy their miniatures with their parents' money. They'll most likely never hear of this "outrage", nor would they understand half of it even if they did. We, who do, do not matter.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:We agree that they aren't doing it out of malice, but can we also agree that they chose a heavy handed and PR shoddy approach? Because that's what I've been arguing for these pages, the agreement that their actions were detrimental to the hobby and aggressive, often to the very community that has supported the company.

Bad PR doesn't matter, because we're not GW's intended audience. That dubious honor is bestowed on the ankle-biters who think White Dwarf is an awesome magazine and who buy their miniatures with their parents' money. They'll most likely never hear of this "outrage", nor would they understand half of it even if they did. We, who do, do not matter.

Then, again, if they do not care for us, we should have the wherewithal to demonstrate that means they don't get our money. It is not about GW caring, because it is blatantly obvious they don't, it is about us caring about how we are treated.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, they were. BGG had a huge post about how it was "unfair" that he was asked to take down a bunch of OOP material or homemade rules that had questionable content(read: the actual rules) written in there.

Which was a valid complaint. His point was that Board Game Geek should not have felt they had to take down all Headless Hollow's work because a large poprtion of it did not actually infringe copyright. This is because, much as GW might wish it was otherwise, you cannot copyright an actual rule, or instruction or idea. All you have is the copyright to the "artistic expression" of that rule. This is a fundamental principle of copyright law. In other words, copy and pasting text from a rulebook is illegal, but expressing it in a different, shorter, handier way is perfectly legal and there shouldn't be a damned thing GW could do about it. Yet Board Game Geel capitulated and blanket axed all that work simply at GW's bullying behest.

If GW had taken a little longer to check what actually was within their rights instead being bullying oafs caring more about protecting their "rights" rather than their reputation, then this gak storm may have been prevented.

No one wanted to harm GW. There may have been some naive assumption that because a game was out of print GW weren't interested in their legal rights over it. Sure that was naive and perhaps stupid. But that still doesn't excuse GW frightening BGG by their incorrect and overbearing assumptions over copyright into throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

And as a P.S. Hasslefree's comments about his C&D letter can be found here: http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23210

I tried reading that thread, Osbad...but it's full of so much retardation I only got to the 8th page.

So he had a Dwarf Troll Slayer model that was a pretty much exact copy of how GW does their Trollslayers? Is that what he was saying?

Is he really surprised they sent a C&D on it?

Yeah, I like the Hasslefree lot -- great products, great service -- but they really shouldn't be surprised they got hassled (sorry!) over the Troll Slayer. I mean -- any three of "mohawked, dwarf, two-handed axe, and 'troll slayer' name", and you might get away with it.

I doubt GW would have a leg to stand on if Hasslefree sold the same mini as "Punk Dwarf" or "Mohawked Dwarf".

Kanluwen wrote:I tried reading that thread, Osbad...but it's full of so much retardation I only got to the 8th page.

So he had a Dwarf Troll Slayer model that was a pretty much exact copy of how GW does their Trollslayers? Is that what he was saying?

Is he really surprised they sent a C&D on it?

GW own the IP on dwarves that slay trolls now do they? Well apparently not because Hasslefree are still selling them which would indicate BS on GW's part. Still, GW seem very good at claiming IP that isn't actually theirs.

Kanluwen wrote:Dune, Aliens, The Lost World and Terminator fall under the parody/homage bit also. Maybe back in the 80s when GW was getting off the ground you'd have a case for arguing that, but the background has evolved since.

And you're absolutely right, that ONCE AGAIN, back in that timeframe of the 80s/early 90s.
GW did exactly what Hasslefree is doing now.

Hang on, so when Hasslefree do it it's a "rip off" but when GW do it it's a "homage". Or were they "ripping off" back in the 80s and it's ok now because they got away with it?

Kanluwen wrote:So he had a Dwarf Troll Slayer model that was a pretty much exact copy of how GW does their Trollslayers? Is that what he was saying?
Is he really surprised they sent a C&D on it?

Yeah, that's the issue. He had a model of a dwarf in "heroic 28mm" scale with a bare chest, mohican and big axe, and it was advertised as a "troll slayer", as I understand it. Now nowhere in any of GW's legal blurb is any of that copyright. Or trade marked. "troll" and "slayer" are not trademarked words. Sure its "close" to imagery of models produced by GW, but so what? That's not illegal. No where was there any reference to any GW trademarked or copyrighted product. A point that GW legal seem not to understand.

Now, it's not a big issue and I'm not crying big tears about one guy getting some grief from making a few quid in the GW counts-as market. Its always clear that GW would have an issue over this. But it just shows how ignorant GW legal seem to be about the law. Or about how little they care and how big the scatter-gun they used was.

Its a concrete example of their lack of thought and discretion. They appear to me like the greasy fat kid in the playground who jealously and selfishly guards his huge stash of sweeties at play time, unwilling to share. Ultimately he ends up as the subject of abuse and hatred for his meanness, when for a little generosity of spirit he could have shared a few sweeties and ultimately made a few friends, maybe. Instead his concern not to lose even one sweet to anyone else costs him any opportunity of friendship with his schoolmates and invites mockery and derision as a result of his lack of social skills.

Perhaps they see it as a win/win situation for them. Either HF takes the model down and therefore a few other potential counts-as modellers are deterred from doing the same, or the hoo-ha from doing the same or they don't. They seem to believe they have nothing to lose in that the only people that they see as being affected (those that would like a boutique dwarf model in a different pose/style from GW's offerings) they do not give a fig about. It's business that in its infinitisimal smallness is of no concern to them.

Fine. If that's their attitude they can shove it, is my personal response to such idiocy.

They are the ones who declared war on any of their fans who aren't total kool-aid sucking buy-ins. I don't *have* to buy their official product if they are that much in hatred of me and my ilk.

Don't get me wrong, I have been "off" GW for a few years (pretty much a downhill slide since 2004, my last year of fanboi-ism) and I am a year or two past the point where their shenanikins had persuaded me I was going to be happier avoiding their products altogether and seeking alternative sources of gaming fun. This is beyond the final straw that broke the camel's back.

My "beef" is simply to draw attention to their chicanery, and I am happy to let others draw their own conclusions given the full facts (at least as I see them). I am under no illusion that somehow a boycott can be generated that will be strong enough to really impact on GW. On the other hand I do think it is still worthwhile to enlighten those that otherwise would continue to be suckered into the morass that is GW's abusive business model (words like "addict" and "plastic crack", while used in jest do partly explain my concerns with their persuit of profit at the expense of teenagers and others who perhaps haven't yet got a reasonable grasp of the true value of money).

I'm not a campaigning jackass, but I do desire the truth to be known, and it does concern me that so many excuse GW's excesses, for whatever reason.

Sure they aren't the baddest guys in the world, and its only a hobby, but their practices leech so much of the "fun" out of the hobby that it does concern me. Many are turned off wargaming altogether when they ultimately experience "GW burn-out", and if only they had perhaps tried games from companies that were less abusive of their fans they may have maintained an interest in a hobby that can provide great personal and emotional rewards.