The Great Games Workshop purge of '09

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**Cosmic**

Hawkins wrote:BrookM, your avatar as always makes me wanna type with one hand.

Steady on son!

**dancingcricket**

Almost seems to me that part of the reason for GW to go with the cease and desist as opposed to the inclusion method people have been proposing, is because the cease and desist has several benefits.

First, it's faster and relatively cheap. Being large and able to throw money into it if necessary will cause most sites to capitulate, as they really can't afford to get in an expensive legal battle.

Second, it's easier and cheaper than including them, and asking them to not post or do anything that intrudes upon their IP. Because once you do that, now you have to monitor the site, and everything that gets posted there, including any forum posts, to make sure that they're holding up to their end of the bargain. Which means you have to let the sites know specifically what does and does not violate the IP, employ someone(s) to check out the sites on a regular basis, and keep communication up with them, to advise the sites when something is posted that does violate their IP, and communicate when the IP changes to include more material. With such a large fan base, and the ease of which someone can open up their own site and start publishing material, the task of keeping up with all of this can quickly grow overwhelming and fairly costly. Several MMO sites will have a community manager to deal with reading the huge amount of posts that people make on their sites, and it's a full time job. Monitoring hundreds of fan sites for anything that might violate the IP, on a continual basis, would be fairly pricey.

While helping to keep fans interested might help keep sales up, there's a certain point where the income due to such goodwill does not significantly outweigh the costs of supporting that goodwill, or the costs of displaying a definite lack of that goodwill.

Edited for spelling

**agnosto**

Kanluwen wrote:
Psst. There's the chance that the aforementioned games that "GW will never do anything with again"...are games that they CANNOT do anything with. There's a chance that they are the brainchild of former employees, which if they were made back in the 80s, can claim IP on their individual projects. There's also a number of games that they did under license to other companies, which if they were to reissue would most likely be a huge breach in IP law on GW's part.

Completely agree with you...so....er...why'd you quote me?

**Kanluwen**

agnosto wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Psst. There's the chance that the aforementioned games that "GW will never do anything with again"...are games that they CANNOT do anything with. There's a chance that they are the brainchild of former employees, which if they were made back in the 80s, can claim IP on their individual projects. There's also a number of games that they did under license to other companies, which if they were to reissue would most likely be a huge breach in IP law on GW's part.

Completely agree with you...so....er...why'd you quote me?

Musta misread the tone of your post, especially the part saying that GW needs to step back and think if they'll ever do anything with it again, I guess.

Or maybe I was using it for emphasis, I don't even know anymore

**jabbakahut**

mattyrm wrote:I agree with Kanlu, if someone is posting MY rule sets, and making $$$ out of advertising because of it, then i want the $$$!

That's my problem with IP laws in general. I don't think it would be right to go and make a full live action Space Marine movie, but even if someone is making what amoounts to barely any money, who cares? So much more interesting stuff would be available to the community as a whole if people weren't so profit driven.

I've yet to see any case where I could believe a major company was suffering a relevant financial loss to justify their actions.

**JohnHwangDD**

All I know is that GW can't do a damn thing about the hardcopies I own.

**Anung Un Rama**

I just found something online about the Librarium stuff. Turns out, it was the old logo, GW was upset about:

That is definetly the GW aquilla, no doubt about that.

I'm not defending them in any way, but it makes (a bit) more sense now.

Kinda going off-topic here, so ignore if it might derail the thread too far:
I'm going to write a review about the blood bowl game for a website I work for. I was planning on showing a pic or three of my painted BB minis on the board. Is that legal?

**insaniak**

That does make a bit more sense. And would explain why the letter complained about Zazzle sales but not about the logo actually on the website itself, if they still had items listed there with the old logo.

**Polonius**

It seems that at the bottom of nearly all of these actions by GW is at least a reasonable problem. Not all certainly, and GW is far more aggressive than any other company, but I think there is some merit to the bulk of the claims.

I think what's really frustrating is the intensity and volume of the C&D letters. It's not like each person is going to review two dozen separate cases.

**Hawkins**

Anung Un Rama wrote:I just found something online about the Librarium stuff. Turns out, it was the old logo, GW was upset about:

That is definetly the GW aquilla, no doubt about that.

I'm not defending them in any way, but it makes (a bit) more sense now.

Kinda going off-topic here, so ignore if it might derail the thread too far:
I'm going to write a review about the blood bowl game for a website I work for. I was planning on showing a pic or three of my painted BB minis on the board. Is that legal?

Dat looks like Dis:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vojnovic2/595646996/
So how the heck can GW claim a russian symbol as IP thats been around for ever? germany and Austria also have the double eagle. can some one either explain this or point me to the place where i can read where this could even remotely be the IP of GW?

**BrookM**

Certain symbols and objects can be copyrighted when done in a certain style. The Aquila is done in a very distinct style (nine or so pieces, each piece representing an aspect of the Imperium), thus can be copyrighted.

**MeanGreenStompa**

They can't claim 'two headed eagle' as theirs, but they can claim the imperial aquila as theirs.

Whether they choose to go after a forum dedicated to their own products about using it is up to them, as is the right to cut off their own nose precisely to spite their face...

**insaniak**

Hawkins wrote:Dat looks like Dis:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vojnovic2/595646996/

Sorry, but no, it doesn't.

They're both double-headed eagles, but beyond that look nothing alike.

A trademark covers the specific image being protected. This stops people from duplicating that image, or from using anything that is too similar (keeping in mind that it often takes a court to decide whether something is too similar or not).

SO GW can claim the Imperial Aquila as their own IP because it is a symbol that they created and that they trademarked, and that is distinct and (in the details) different from other double headed eagle symbols.

So far as the law is concerned, it's all down to the details.

**Grot 6**

So which one of, or were all of, the fan based sites making money over the GW products mentioned?

Which one of them were recasting and making product, taking cash out of GW's pocket?

**jabbakahut**

Anung Un Rama wrote:I'm going to write a review about the blood bowl game for a website I work for. I was planning on showing a pic or three of my painted BB minis on the board. Is that legal?

Their TOS and legal stuff says;

GAMES WORKSHOP wrote:Photos of Painted Models

We encourage fellow hobbyists to show off their painting skills by taking photos of their miniatures and putting the on the site. Please remember to correctly credit the IP - "miniature © Games Workshop 2003. All rights reserved. Used without permission - model painted by xxxxxxx"

And I guess technically my avatar violates thier IP as well. I'll go ahead and create a signature which credits them once I get my C&D.

**Grot 6**

Kanluwen wrote:Uh, MGS...they HAVE done that.

Games Workshop Legal wrote:General Principles

- Please make it clear that your use is unofficial by including some wording to the effect that, for example, "This website is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited." Are people likely to be confused as to whether your web site or any material was produced by Games Workshop just by looking at it? If so, then you need to alter it. In other words, do not try to make your material look "official."

- Please do not change our trademarks in any way (e.g., stretch or deform them)

- Include an appropriate disclaimer on your web site from the list on the following webpage

- Please make the origins of the intellectual property very clear, in other words, make sure that from a brief review of your material people know that you are unofficially using Games Workshop's intellectual property (and not your own IP or the IP of a third party).

WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

Please read the following in conjunction with the What you can do section above and the Specific Examples section below. Other than a few exemptions, Games Workshop is not obliged to let anyone use its IP at all (for example, it's a widely held misconception that you can freely make use of someone else's copyrights, without their permission, as long as it's for your own private use - this is currently not an automatic exemption to copyright), and accordingly we always insist that our IP is treated with the respect that we feel that it deserves.

So, If you are using or want to use our intellectual property and you do not have a written license with us, you must not:

- Use Games Workshop's intellectual property in relation to any commercial activity this includes, for example, paying a printer to print some flyers for you, obtaining sponsorship, or selling non-Games Workshop materials using our trademarks.

- Make any direct copies and/or scans of Games Workshop publications, images, or other materials. This includes any Out-o- Production materials, web site materials, and White Dwarf articles. We would however suggest that you produce your own materials (as long as you follow the other requirements of this policy).

- Use our trademarks in respect of your domain name.

- Use our intellectual property in relation to any third party products or third party intellectual property.

- Alter our trademarks in any way.

- Use any of our IP without appropriately crediting the IP and using the appropriate disclaimers in accordance with this policy (see below).

- Create, distribute, or use any material that is not consistent with the functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of the Warhammer universe as created and owned by Games Workshop

- State that anything that you create using Games Workshop's intellectual property is "official."

- Create, distribute, or use any material that is derogatory, obscene, or offensive.

- Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any Games Workshop product in any way.

SPECIFIC EXAMPLES
In addition to the above rules, we have additional rules for specific uses of our IP. The following is a definitive list of activities and uses that Games Workshop will usually not take active steps to prevent. If your proposed use is not on the list, it is highly likely that we will not permit it. This list may change from time to time so please check it regularly.

Web Sites

Please don't use one of our trademarks to directly identify your web sit (e.g., "The Space Hulk Home Page"). This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.

This doesn't mean that you can't use our trademarks to talk about our stuff, it just means you need to make it clear that description is the reason why you are using them (e.g., "Cleanse and Burn - my web page dedicated to Games Workshop's Space Hulk game") is fine because you're using our trademarks to simply describe what your web page is about and because it identifies us as the publishers of the game.

Also, please do not use any material from the official Games Workshop websites. Instead, we suggest that you make your own.

Web Names

Please don't use one of our registered trademarks as part of your web domain name. This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.

Educational Use

Unfortunately, we currently cannot give official "permission" for students to use our IP in relation to their studies for reasons of possible licensing conflicts. Unofficial permission would be governed by the remainder of this document and the specific use of the IP. We would point you in the direction of the "fair use" (US) or "fair dealing" (UK) rules in relation to copyright protected materials and research/educational usage. Be aware that there is not an equivalent doctrine for trademark usage.

Maps

We would ask you not to take direct scans or copies of our maps. We suggest that you create your own equivalents. Again, please avoid reproducing our trademarks.

Making Terrain

If you simply make the terrain for yourself and you have no intention of selling it, any use of our IP in relation to your terrain will probably be okay. Do not reproduce our trademarks. However, as always, you cannot use our intellectual property in relation to a commercial activity - if you make and sell terrain, please avoid using any Games Workshop intellectual property in or in relation to that terrain. For example, do not sell it on Ebay as "Warhammer terrain," as it is not Warhammer terrain. Indeed, only Games Workshop could produce Warhammer Terrain.

Bandwidth Theft and Mirroring Resources

We do not tolerate deep linking to the pictures, images, PDFs or other downloads on our website. Such activity is bandwidth theft. Also, do not mirror the resources that we have on our websites. So, if you want other people to see the materials that we have produced, please use a simple HTML link to the relevant web page.

Themes

While we are likely to be happy for you to create your own desktop themes based upon our IP, please do not use our trademarks in those themes. In other words, do not use our logos and symbols, but please do draw your own version of a Wood Elf or Tyranid.

Photos of Painted Models

We encourage fellow hobbyists to show off their painting skills by taking photos of their miniatures and putting the on the site. Please remember to correctly credit the IP - "miniature © Games Workshop 2003. All rights reserved. Used without permission - model painted by xxxxxxx"

Background

Background text is a major part of the hobby and writing your own is almost as much fun as reading it. Please remember to use the correct trademark disclaimer somewhere on your site, zip file and/or document. We would also ask that at the top of the material you state something equivalent to the following: "Death Ravine" an unofficial story by K. Roundtree derived, without permission, upon the Warhammer intellectual property owned by Games Workshop Ltd." Please note that we consider any background material you write to be a work which is derivative of our intellectual property. As such, you should refrain from putting any notice claiming that anyone other than Games Workshop Ltd has any right over Games Workshop-owned intellectual property or derivatives thereof.

Rules

We encourage fellow hobbyists to invent rules that work for them. There is no need to stick precisely to the published rules. However, if you are thinking about making your own Codex for your Space Marine chapter (in addition to following the other guidelines in this policy), please avoid making it look official as this may confuse gamers and amount to a challenge to our trademarks. Also, do not copy our official publications or documents.

Conversions

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.
Casting

Do not cast any materials that are based upon Games Workshop material. Games Workshop has to maintain a strict policy on this to fight counterfeiters. We would also remind you that reproduction for personal use is NOT an automatic exclusion in respect of copyright protection in many territories worldwide.

Unreleased Material

While we know that it is always cool to see new material before it arrives on the shelves, we would ask you not to publish, or link to other sites that publish, any material that has not been officially reported or released by Games Workshop. This does not apply to small pieces of conjecture written in your "rumors" section (unless of course said "rumors" are akin to publishing unreleased material).

Forums

We have no problem with people using forums to express their love (or even hate) of the hobby. We would, however, ask people to bear in mind that the hobby is for people all ages. Please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed. We would strongly recommend that you avoid any discussion of illegal behavior.

Movies

The video games that our licensing partners have created have done an incredible job of bringing the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games to life, and we appreciate that hobbyists may even want to make movies based upon our intellectual property. Unfortunately, due to the nuances of the law in some territories, we cannot allow any unlicensed movies to be created which are based upon our intellectual property.

Modifications, Total Conversions, and Games

We want people to express their enjoyment of our games with as little interference from us as possible, as long as they behave reasonably with our IP and follow any reasonable requests that we may make. We are not inherently opposed to hobbyists creating games or mods using our IP, in fact we are flattered that people want to spend so much time creating games and mods in the GW universes.

If you want to make a game, TC or a mod using our IP you must adhere to the following (in addition to the general principles as outlined above):

Any game or mod must be a "total conversion." In other words, you must not use our intellectual property (logos, images, names etc.) in relation to the worlds, names, logos, or images of any other company. For example, you cannot place our Space Marines in a Disney total conversion using the Unreal engine, but you could make a TC solely using Space Marines with the Unreal engine. This is, of course, assuming that you have permission to use the Unreal engine.

Please bear in mind that we may require you to remove the game or mod from any public forum at any time so that we can comply with any licenses that we may have with computer game publishers/developers. Be aware that we may even have to insist that the mod be destroyed. Please take very careful note of this statement, as we would not want you to feel unfairly treated at a later date.

The game or mod must be strictly non-commercial - this includes any web site that the mod or game is hosted on. You also cannot pay a printing company to publilsh copies of it onto CD. It may also mean that you cannot get sponsorship.

It must be made clear on any readme files, splash/intro screens and accompanying material that the game or mod is unofficial and the origins of the intellectual property must be made obvious (e.g., your mod might say "Battletoes a total conversion for XXXX (insert game name) using intellectual property owned by Games Workshop. Used without permission...etc." See the relevant disclaimer on the following page.).

The game or mod must not devalue any Games Workshop product in any way.

Any distribution (zipped or otherwise) of the whole, or any part, of the mod or game must be accompanied with the appropriate disclaimers and must also follow these guidelines.

The functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of any mod or game must be consistent with the relevant IP.
Skins

Unfortunately, GW cannot allow thirds parties to use our IP without properly crediting our ownership. It is not possible to credit ownership with skins and accordingly we do not allow their creation.

Online Auctions

Do not use our trademarks in relation to products that are not owned by or originate from Games Workshop (see Making Terrain above).

Do not associate our products or IP with any third party products or IP.

We would encourage you to use digital photographs of any materials that you are planning on selling. Do not use any materials from any GW website to sell the product.

Café Press

We cannot allow users to make and or sell derivatives of our copyright protected material or our trademarks on the café press or any similar websites.

Web Comics

We would probably not take issue with anyone creating a web comic based upon our intellectual property - but as with forums, keep in mind that the hobby is for people of all ages. Please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed. We would strongly recommend that you avoid any topics concerning illegal behavior, obscenity, or libel.

Fonts

Unfortunately, GW cannot allow third parties to use our trademarks without properly crediting our ownership, lest they be damaged. With fonts, it is difficult, if not impossible, to use the marks and credit Games Workshop as rightful owners. Accordingly, do not use our IP in relation to fonts.

Screen Savers

As is the case with fonts, GW cannot allow third parties to use our trademarks without properly crediting our ownership, lest they be damaged. You may only create screen savers if it properly credits our IP. We would also remind you that you cannot alter or change our trademarks in any way.

Animations

We would probably not have a problem with anyone creating animations based upon our intellectual property - as long as there is no commercial connection to that creation. Again, please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed.

Club Names and Trademarks

We actively encourage hobbyists to begin their own clubs connected with the hobby. In fact, in most territories, we have an employee tasked with helping people set up and run their clubs. However, we would advise anyone with a club or starting a club to avoid directly using our trademarks (do not, for example call the club, "The Warhammer Club"). Instead, create your own names, such as "The Hellfire Hunters," "Da Narsty Boarz," or other, far more creative names than these pathetic examples.

Fanzines

Fanzines are a great way to immerse yourself in the hobby. However, if you are thinking about starting a fanzine, please do not use our trademarks. Again, we would remind you that the main principles set out at the head of this page apply to fanzines, as they do to all of the specific examples herein. Importantly, if you are creating a solely GW-focused fanzine, do not sell your fanzine and do not obtain any sponsorship.

Out-of-Print Material

Please do not scan, copy, or republish any out-of-print (OOP) materials. It may be that in the future we reuse or license out the use of this material.

Out of Production Games

We frequently get requests from the older hobbyists out there to make computer versions of our old games - some of you out there will remember games like Blockmania, Chainsaw Warrior and indeed Talisman from many years ago, and a lot of those that do remember them very fondly indeed. There are three good reasons why we cannot allow this - one of which is simply that it will necessarily make use of our copyright in ways that are not permitted anywhere else in this document. Secondly, providing a system for playing the game on the internet effectively means that you could play the game without having ever bought it originally, which therefore devalues Games Workshop products as outlined above. Finally, as with Talisman, it may be that we decide to revisit some of these games at some time in the future to create a better, updated version for all.

E-mail Lists

Placing scans or copies of any Games Workshop material on an e-mail list or news group is a violation of our rights and amounts to a serious infringement. Please do not participate in this activity, and if you are aware of it, please write to the legal department on the following email address: Legal@games-workshop.co.uk

Thank you very much for your compliance with the above policies. We know that there is a lot here and appreciate that you have taken the time to read it all.

Italics are for emphasis! Yay!

Based on the haphazard tone of this letter, One could take this to mean, "You can't play our game." Which I find pretty funny, seeing that the history of GW is based well into building the company up from a Dungeons and Dragons reprint factory which engaged in the very same practices that they are so keen to come down hard on to so called "Fans".

Hey, in case you don't know it, letters of this kind are white noise to the real situation of the facts at hand. That letter is written with the tone of speaking to cousin It, or your wierd uncle that makes you creeped out. And even though it looks like it, It's not a legal letter or contract, and just because you send something like that out doesn't mean whay YOU think it means.

Scare tactics, nothing else.
Look at these so called examples-
" Online Auctions

Do not use our trademarks in relation to products that are not owned by or originate from Games Workshop (see Making Terrain above).

Do not associate our products or IP with any third party products or IP." (Fee bay, Barter town, or even the Warstore anyone?

So does that go for all of the countless table terraign companies out there, what about other game companies that are 28-32mm, seeing as they are wargames, doesn't that mean that Games is in it, so its against the IP?

Unreleased Material

While we know that it is always cool to see new material before it arrives on the shelves, we would ask you not to publish, or link to other sites that publish, any material that has not been officially reported or released by Games Workshop. This does not apply to small pieces of conjecture written in your "rumors" section (unless of course said "rumors" are akin to publishing unreleased material)."- So, who exactly again was the one who showed the picture of the Dark Angel fortress sprue?

How about those pictures that you took when you went to Gencon, Adepticon, or Rogue trader tournaments... You better watch out! You better not pout!

I could keep going on and on, but to me, as a so called"FAN", if you sent me something like this, I'd fold it up, make a paper plane out of it, throw it back at you and go hire myself a trademark attorney to defend myself for harrassing me. Then I'd counter sue for mental stress.

Theres a little tidbit for asshats that send this sort of thing too, its called Those materials are fair market items. They are unbuilt models, incomplete product, and in short Hobby Items. IP doesn't mean gak when I'm getting incomplete product. Hell, when I paint those guys, they don't look like they do on the package! Thats false advertising, if you want to go by GW's letter here.

I submit it once again that they are going to do this to the wrong one and end up settling it out of court for a serious amount that will put a dent into thier legal funds. Then we can watch as there be a few more price increases to make up for the lession.

The bottom line issue is that GW is beginning to make it a habit of being heavy handed, while at the same time trying to make themselves into victims with postualtions such as your wall of noise here.

" Make any direct copies and/or scans of Games Workshop publications, images, or other materials. This includes any Out-o- Production materials, web site materials, and White Dwarf articles. We would however suggest that you produce your own materials (as long as you follow the other requirements of this policy)."- IE talk about on Dakka exactly how much this much White Dwarf Sucks, or how lame Gavin the Noob, or Jervis's opinion was.

So can we expect C and D letters for discussing rules, articles, and models? WTF!!! Universities arn't even this stringent.

At issue here is exactly WHERE this sort of attention stops at? Whats going to happen when someone arbitrarily decides that you can't play a game with minis painted with any other paint the GW?
Whats going to stop them from outright telling you that conversions are direct violations of thier IP?

What is going to stop them from telling you that you can't use anything other then GW hobby materials to work on the materials?
The very fact that we are even having this discussion over a GAMING COMPANY begs the question, doesn't it?

Free speech, but watch what you say, I guess.

This company cannot even write a decent magazine article. Do you actually think they can do something to actulally, um...I don't know... promote thier hobby?

What have they done lately that has been positive , or what by this action gives players a positive effect on their gaming?

Its a slip from the cup to a lip.

I want an example of how these fan sites were making money off of the material, and I want an example of how they were even effecting GW in anyway other then the already free material that was already available from the site.

Heavy Handed tactics don't work. Especially when they are done in public.

I see where there is already a couple of other threads about this same issue, and how people are still clinging to the "GW HAS to protect thier IP... line.

. YES!!! WE AGREE WITH THAT!!! That isn't the point. The point of the issue is that this company that runs around with rules such as "Well, if you can't agree on the rule to D6 off for it" or at every codex that comes down the pipe effectivly rewrites the rulebook should do a little better job of policing themselves then to go after fansites from some highschoolers, or fans of the game. Nevermind that they have effectivly written themselves off and outright told the fan base to continue to play the games and if they so wanted to make up thier own fun things to do with them. ( Specialist games, anyone?)

I read through that letter. You can pretty much take that and shove it for all I care.

Reading through that stuff, they even make the argument that you can't even sell thier stuff second hand. You actually think thats going to happen?

Pfft, who wants to buy some dark eldar, only dropped once?

jabbakahut wrote:
Anung Un Rama wrote:I'm going to write a review about the blood bowl game for a website I work for. I was planning on showing a pic or three of my painted BB minis on the board. Is that legal?

Their TOS and legal stuff says;

GAMES WORKSHOP wrote:Photos of Painted Models

We encourage fellow hobbyists to show off their painting skills by taking photos of their miniatures and putting the on the site. Please remember to correctly credit the IP - "miniature © Games Workshop 2003. All rights reserved. Used without permission - model painted by xxxxxxx"

And I guess technically my avatar violates thier IP as well. I'll go ahead and create a signature which credits them once I get my C&D.

You get a few minutes before they send the kill team through your door.

BUT.... It does beg the question on how far they think they can go with thier stance.
I agree on the not making money off of thier IP, thats not the friggn argument. The argument is over petty legalese over pittence and pie.

Your avatar? Me painting a space marine pink? Discussions over weaksauce rules sets? General forum discussions? Warseer, Dakka Dakka?

How far can and will they take it?

**BeefyG**

I melted a GW miniature on the weekend, it just made me feel better.

You should try it!

**Kanluwen**

Grot:

That's not a letter. It's copy/pasted right from their website.

Y'know, down at the bottom of the site?

Where it says "Legal"?

**Grot 6**

Kanluwen wrote:Grot:

That's not a letter. It's copy/pasted right from their website.

Y'know, down at the bottom of the site?

Where it says "Legal"?

And Like I said....

How far do you think they want to ride that train?

Nice avatar, by the way.

"Photos of Painted Models "

We encourage fellow hobbyists to show off their painting skills by taking photos of their miniatures and putting the on the site. Please remember to correctly credit the IP - "miniature © Games Workshop 2003. All rights reserved. Used without permission - model painted by xxxxxxx" "

"That looks like a picture of one of our models... thump thump thump!!! We're coming to get you, Barbra!!!"

**Kanluwen**

Bah. It double posted, even though I only hit submit once :(

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crap. And it ate the actual post as the double. Fantastic.

Screw it, not typing that again.

Brief summation:

You're apparently quite an Angry Annie, Grot. You better reread the actual listings that GW has, rather than just assuming it's all intended to be fascism.

Things like the "do not associate our products with third party products" do not mean that webstores cannot sell them, or you can't resell an old army on ebay/bartertown.

It means you cannot have a non-GW product for sale, while calling it a GW product title(ex: terrain, to use yours. You cannot have a 40k Eldar Warpgate. You can have an "Archaic portal".) Look at Chapterhouse's stuff for an example, his is pretty bulletproof so far.

The "unreleased material" and the "publications" issues:
It does NOT mean that you cannot have discussions on unreleased material, or home brewed rules sets.
It DOES mean that you cannot have complete PDFs of their Army Books, White Dwarf articles, or copy/paste their painting articles from the website. It also means that you cannot link to torrents of PDFs of their army books, or rules sets, or any number of things that you would normally have to purchase.

**Miguelsan**

At least half the "Legal Whatever" above is smoke and mirrors. It has the same legal strength than a wet paper towel. Some examples of clauses that are mere requests on GW part worded in a way that could be taken as having a legal backing that they don´t.

SPECIFIC EXAMPLES
In addition to the above rules, we have additional rules for specific uses of our IP. The following is a definitive list of activities and uses that Games Workshop will usually not take active steps to prevent. If your proposed use is not on the list, it is highly likely that we will not permit it. This list may change from time to time so please check it regularly.

(Bold text is mine, they will usually not take active steps because in some they can´t)

1st. GW can´t say what I can or cannot do with my minis, I can model them GWs style, I can mix 3rd party pieces or I can sculpt little gs dongs for every IG I own. It will be in poor taste and GW (or any other guys ofc) CAN forbid me to enter any event they sponsor but to say that I cannot model my toy soldiers any way I want goes against the basic property laws that most countries have.

2nd. Rumors and non released stuff (this one will be trickier because varies wildly between countries) If my stupid GW´s designer friend allows me to see and take a picture of the coming Codex Naked Chicks, Amazon terminators page, two things will happen my friend probably will lose his job and if I post this info online GW will have a very hard job to shut me down because of something you US guys love very much, Free Speech, I don´t have a NDA with GW so they can try going to a judge and the judge probably (again I point that this will change between countries) will say that to take my web site down is akin to censoring because I´m publishing something that to the fan community is news, that´s what newspapers do all the time with even more important things that a picture of a game rule.

3rd. Alter our trademarks in any way Another half truth, in the US there is already some rulings (posted in another thread about a guy against a health club franchise) that say that in some cases you can, in the case I mentioned the guy used the franchise logo with a photoshoped SUCKS on top on his webpage to complain about poor service so a similar situation would be kosher.

4th. Forums Again a request that is thrown in to the mix just in case somebody falls for it. No, GW cannot say what I can write on a forum that is not their property. If Dakka´s mods allow me to say

terminators every 5 words on account of me being Frazz´s long lost father

there is nothing GW can do about it. Nor can they block me from trying to make a connection between the Republican party and the Ultramarines, the only ones that can are the owners of this forum.

As other posters already said:
-GW has the duty and the right to protect their IP
-No, GW cannot protect their IP anyway they want, GW must follow the pertinent IP laws.
-Most of the C&D letters appear to have a solid foundation on their request but some of them are at the very least borderline and rely on intimidation rather than the law.
-This one is mere speculation on my part but it appears that GW legal is trying to use UK´s IP laws as far as they can and as above hoping that people will fold and not take them to court where GW has more than a fair chance to lose the suit.

M.

**jabbakahut**

GW Legal wrote:Movies
The video games that our licensing partners have created have done an incredible job of bringing the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games to life, and we appreciate that hobbyists may even want to make movies based upon our intellectual property. Unfortunately, due to the nuances of the law in some territories, we cannot allow any unlicensed movies to be created which are based upon our intellectual property.

Here is what I don't get. Ignoring the fiasco which was Damanatus-I don't think they have any right to say what fan film I decide to make or not. Star Wars is a franchise which is worth 100X what GW is, and Lucas is super tight on his IP-yet there are hundreds of Fan flicks made without C&D or threat of legal action like with Damanatus.

OT but still an aside; I was looking at those old Epic forums on the internet archives (where Jervis talks about Squats). I wasn't active in the online community for wargaming at that time, was there ever an official 40K forum run by GW? If so does anyone know where I can find the remains?

Also, how come forums suchs as 40konline and 40kforums haven't been targeted yet? Or have they?

**insaniak**

jabbakahut wrote: Star Wars is a franchise which is worth 100X what GW is, and Lucas is super tight on his IP-yet there are hundreds of Fan flicks made without C&D or threat of legal action like with Damanatus.

The difference there would be that Lucas (or at least his genre-spanning business empire) actually encourages fan films.

OT but still an aside; I was looking at those old Epic forums on the internet archives (where Jervis talks about Squats). I wasn't active in the online community for wargaming at that time, was there ever an official 40K forum run by GW? If so does anyone know where I can find the remains?

They originally ran their own forums which covered all of their games. Specialist slintered off after a while and built their own forums for each of the specilist games, and then GW decided that they didn't want to run their own forums anymore and shut the main forums down.

Unless you can find snippets in the Internet Archive, I doubt you'll find anything much of them still on the web.

Also, how come forums suchs as 40konline and 40kforums haven't been targeted yet? Or have they?

Possibly just because GW are currently targeting BB sites and sites containing OOP game information, rather than 40K sites.

**WarhammerTabletop**

GW is scared methinks. Or just noticed how many sites had their IP. I can imagine that.

Hey phil whats up?

Nothing just on bloodbowl

Hey there copying our IP!

Those Gakholes!

**Ian Sturrock**

Personally, I don't see a huge problem with most of GW's IP requirements, either ethically or legally, and I'm a little surprised that so many people set up GW-oriented websites without checking & ensuring they'd adhered to the relevant legal requirements.

I don't think it's unreasonable for GW to ask that (for example) you link to their FAQ document, or their free rulebook, on their website, rather than re-hosting the same info on your own website.

I do think they've drunk too much fungus ale if they really think they have any right to tell me off or sue me if I take photos of toy soldiers I own, and put them on a website. I think that any law court would probably tell them the same thing, if in a somewhat more complicated and expensive way.

**Howard A Treesong**

If we're talking about people nicking the IP of others, anyone spot the similarity between these?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/taulargestation.htm
and
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cloud_City

or maybe...

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/tausmallstation.htm
and
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starbase_74

**Polonius**

Howard A Treesong wrote:If we're talking about people nicking the IP of others, anyone spot the similarity between these?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/taulargestation.htm
and
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cloud_City

or maybe...

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/tausmallstation.htm
and
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starbase_74

This has been brought up a couple of times in this thread, and while it may be psychically satisfying to accuse GW of hipocrosy, there are three problems with that line of reasoning:

1) Courts don't overly care who's been naughty or nice in other areas. Each legal matter is a fairly self contained set of circumstances. It doesn't matter how many times you trespass on your neighbors yard, you can still sue him he trespasses on yours.

2) Copyrights, esp. for visual media, are far looser than trademarks.

3) The holders of the copyrights to the IP in question are free to file a claim against GW. They won't, because they'd lose, but they still could.

**Herohammernostalgia**

It's GW's right to protect their IP, but GW is rather extreme about it in the case of Boardgame Geek.

I agree with most posters here and BGG that it's an overzealous action bordering on a "F

You, loyal Fan! ...(sucker)..."

I understand their need to protect the IP, but the blanket C&D is counterproductive, as especially BGG is a great gate-way site for would-be gamers, and GW receives a lot of negative publicity there. Recently that community has been slightly possitive about GW (for Space Hulk and the old stuff), now there is an uproar of discontent of people who have put a lot of time in helping GW for free. I'm afraid GW looked at it purely from a legal point of view, which is important of course, but the social pov, or even from the view point of innovation and being a Niche Market company has been disregarded. And for a company in GW's niche that's just stupid. They live too much in their own little world to see that their competitors flourish on the internet and some solely exist online and gaming tables, not in store buildings. GW can have both, and it would be good for them, but no, GW legel wants to destroy it in a frenzied panic of misguided motivations.
GW was more wealthy when it allowed the fansites and it's resources. Nowadays the fansites would fill the void GW themselves created by changing their website into just an online store with a limited number of hobby tips. The old site was much, much better, and I wouldn't be bothered to write this if that style was kept (i.e. retaining extensive background, variant rules like skirmish and combat patrol, scenarios, THE BLACK GOBBO etc.).

If GW can provide us with the stuff and support we need, if GW offers it's audience a platform to share it's ideas, fansites must be very special or are redundant. GW doesn't do that, so fansites slightly/barely infringe on their IP by creating themselves what GW doesn't make for them. GW forces a DIY ethic on their customers who want more than just pretty pictures, something they have supported in the past but are now regarding as, to speak in 40k terms, "Rogue Trading"

Maybe it's an "oh crap!" action of GW... realising their storefront-website has nothing to offer other than models and painting/modelling guides, fans who seek other content (scenario's, the boardgames, variant rules etc) go elsewhere, hence they don't see the online shop and maybe buy less models because of that? Is that what they are thinking? do they have braincells? Or are they linked up into a golden throne and being fed by the lunch money of high school kids?

I'm no advocate of a boycot of playing the games (buying... maybe), they're fun and the Game designers have no say in this. I'd rather advocate preseverence; Keep making those fansites, have three new necromunda sites go online for each one C&D'ed! Make it a quagmire for GW-legal, an endless endeavour, eventually, GW will cease and desist... i hope.

why?
Because there is a reason we bought and buy their stuff: We like it! we want to keep liking it and we want GW to be worth us liking their IP! So keep blogging, posting, errataing etc. and at some point, GW will realise we do that out of love for their IP, to bring those ideas and stories to people who haven't heard of it yet, or used to know it and forgot it, and of course all the girls and guys who are still totally into GW's product.

**Kanluwen**

Once again:
He had PDF files of rules(outdated or out of production does not mean it becomes public domain), along with reprinting their current rules/artwork

He violated their IP requests listed in black and white on the website.

Thus, he gets a C&D.

Simple.

**Agamemnon2**

Kanluwen wrote:Once again:
He had PDF files of rules(outdated or out of production does not mean it becomes public domain), along with reprinting their current rules/artwork

He violated their IP requests listed in black and white on the website.

The IP requests are mostly just that, requests. People can safely ignore those and simply follow the letter of the law. But there really aren't any "good guys" here. We have GW on one side, and pirates, fools and/or thieves on the other.