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The thing that's interesting me the most is the % cap on characters.

One of the reasons why they switched from percentages to slots when they went from WFB5 to WFB6 was because allowing 50% of your points to be spent on characters was what created Herohammer. The move was to try and re-establish unit vs unit combat.

More recent army books with their attendent codex creep have now put us in the position of having a weird cross between Herohammer and Deathstarhammer. It seems to me that many of these changes are an attempt to rectify this and get back (again) to unit vs unit being the focus.

If GW set a tight limit on characters (of the order of the 25% that has been talked about) then relying on heroes will be difficult if not impossible because you won't be able to tool them up enough.

The changes in the way combat works and the hike in points value for a standard game look like they are an attempt to make big units more valuable in comparison to death stars. DS units will still exist, obviously (notably for elite armies like WoC) but should be more vulnerable to attrition - especially when people start taking large missile units.

Finally, the points limit on characters will effect the magic phase just as much as the changes to the magic phase. Not having the points to spend on uber-wizards or just lots of spellcasters will mean fewer spells zipping about the place and if magic really is becoming more dangerous for the casters people will think more carefully before they unleash the mega-spell.

Now, all of this is conjecture and could be blown away by an anouncement that characters are going back to the old <50% rule. If they do, combined with 3000pt games, I'm not going to reinvest - I don't fancy playing War(machine)hammer...

Buttlerthepug wrote:

Mick A wrote:It makes good business sense to make Warhammer more like 40k. 40k is the biggest seller of the two so if you make Warhammer similar your more likely to entice the 40k players across to play both.
As for losing current Warhammer players, let's be honest, we whinge, we moan, but we still carry on playing and buying...
Mick

Then what would be the point of two different game systems if they were both the same?

Possibly because one is fantasy and the other is sci-fi...?

And even if they were identical (which will never happen) by calling one Warhammer Fantasy and another Warhammer 40,000 people will actually buy both making them more profit.

If people don't like the changes in the new edition why play that one? Unless your a tournie player nothing is stopping you from still playing the current edition (or even earlier ones, I actually prefer 3rd edition myself...).

Mick

Not sure Mick- would a lot more kids go over to FB?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Not sure Mick- would a lot more kids go over to FB?

I think they have more chance of getting 40k players to try FB if its a lot closer to 40k than it is now. I personally prefer 40k as I really don't like the current FB edition (hence playing 3rd when I do play FB) but the more I read about the new edition the more interesting it sounds to me...

Mick

40K players that don't play Fantasy aren't going to suddenly switch over since some of the rules are now similar. They like the skirmish aspect, really simplified ruleset and the setting (tanks, stormtrooper wanna-bes and guns). Changing Fantasy to attract a few Marine players and alienating the people that like how Fantasy has worked for four editions is a stupid idea since their audience isn't as inelastic as it was 10 years ago with many more miniature games sprouting up recently. If the rules suck (and if they are very similar to WotR they will) people will just stop playing. You'll get a few who will buy the box set and maybe one army but that won't offset the people that just quit.

The local GW I play at has almost no Fantasy scene at all anymore (other than little kids playing 500 point games) and if they made the rules less like Fantasy I think it you'll be totally dead.

Something to keep in mind is that a lot of the WH40k changes scared people when taken individually, but the actual rules were received much better.

Perhaps these rule changes work better in practice than they sound when taken out of context.

I agree that it is way too premature to start claiming the sky is falling since small segments of the rules may add up to be a really cool whole. However these proposed changes are going to shake up Fantasy a lot. The changes people were scared of from the proposed rules changes for 5th ed 40k were pretty much "Now my Wave Serpents can't fire everything anymore :(" or "what the hell a Rhino is worth the same amount of kill points as a Terminator squad???" The stuff that was listed in regards to Fantasy create the impression that it might be going down a path of becoming a totally different game with random charge distances, terrain everywhere, army composition changes, vastly different psychology effects and combat resolution.

I'm still on the fence on how it's going to work out since I know as little as anybody. I'm definitely a bit excited just to see such a massive shakeup and what they could be using those extra 200 rulebook pages for but I could see how people that really enjoyed how the game has worked for the last decade (6th and 7th ruleset weren't really that different for the most part) could be feeling scared.

As a Skaven player, gearing the game to 3000pts really scares me (it's taking me ages to get 1000pts painted and I'm using as many high value models as possible), but I can't see it being compulsory.

25% characters would definitely be a challenge and would result in some of the SCs (Kroak springs to mind) not appearing at all, unless they were the sole character in your army.

I just noticed that ranged units can shoot in two ranks now. Most excellent, my Nuln handgunner army might see a revival then!

25% limit on characters isn't to prevent herohammer and balance stuff, it's to sell more models

If it has the (entirely incidental) effect of making the game better, I'm cool with it

I do like the idea of having more troops on the table, purely from a make your army look cool standpoint.. and thats the only thing i go for anyway.

still just bummed I can't do my carnosaur & 2 engines list for my lizards. fooey!

Probably the rumor I like least is the random charge distance. The biggest tactical element of Fantasy is guessing the charge range. Too large of a charge variation would sort of blow that, methinks.

Would it be fair to say that the use of dice adds too great an element of chance and removes a degree of skill if the rumour is true?

I actually quite like the idea, if only because it stops people from playing nekcihc (that's chicken in reverse...)

I find it frustrating when games devolve into two people who won't move their units for fear that their opponent will then get the charge.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Would it be fair to say that the use of dice adds too great an element of chance and removes a degree of skill if the rumour is true?

What you say is true, but the more important question is whether or not it's the more desirable outcome, or the best way to do it. The latter's harder to come by, but I'm not so sure if this fulfills the former.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Would it be fair to say that the use of dice adds too great an element of chance and removes a degree of skill if the rumour is true?

It would be fair if 7th edition Warhammer made no use of dice ... and if dealing with random results did not require skill.

The problem is when small amounts of dice rolls have huge effects on games. When you roll lots of dice, the averages are going to work out. However when you are depending on a single dice roll for something game changing to happen and it doesn't you feel like it was a single event that cost you the game and it was totally out of your hands. Bloodbowl is huge about this and it's incredibly frustrating. However that is a game with a much smaller scale and it's known that it's all about wacky stuff happening. With Fantasy it is supposed to be about tactics and if every army is suddenly Orcs and Goblins where you don't know if you will be able to charge it'll be very bad.

For example with that stupid Warriors of Chaos spell that removes units if you roll a 11 or 12 on the strength. The game comes down to "did I roll really lucky once and vaporize his lord's unit" which is just not fun. With conventional stuff you are throwing many attacks or shots which will typically average out over the course of a six turn game. We already have leadership tests which many people complain about when their unit of leadership 9 dwarfs roll a 10 on a panic check and run off the table. These sorts of events will rarely happen but when it does, you're screwed so people try to minimize them whenever they can. Thus the preponderance of armies that are either immune to psychology (Demons, Vampire Counts) or the meaty center that matters is (Dark Elves, Skaven, Lizardmen) and almost no units with the stupidity rule close to an army list. So really it's clear that many of the players don't appreciate this type of gameplay so why include more of it? When I want to charge it's going to really be annoying and not fun when I roll a 1 and my unit that is 6 inches away from an enemy fails its charge and there's nothing I can do about it.

I think the random charge distance is pretty dumb. Games are going to come down to either.

Wow lucky pos you rolled a 6 and managed to barely get the charge off.

Or wow, i needed a 2 to get the charge off and rolled a 1.

The current system works fine imo, i rarely see this not moving to avoid getting charged. You have to be smart about your movement and make it so if they charge and dont break you, they are going to get flank charged.

Adding more random occurrences to a game that can already be very random isnt a good idea.

The element of chance and responding to it is a big part of the game, so I understand what is being said.
The positioning to get the charge in first may lead to a game of chicken
What I was wondering is that you could get into a good position then roll poorly and get decimated as a consequence.
To misjudge a distance and get punished is one thing, but to cop it because of an added layer of chance on top of those already in the game seems negative.
This may in turn lead to greater caution in some players?

ps quite like the idea of playing nekchic
Maybe I need to start a Vampire Counts Army

It SORTA works in WotR (I say sorta since that entire system is a mess) since charging and moving are different phases like in 40k. However if I can't even move my unit because they failed a charge solely due to a bad dice roll it will be crippling. Orc and Goblins would be hit especially hard when they have to test for this and animosity. If they handle it like WotR where a 1 is always a failed charce and keep animosity basically the same as it's been for ages (1s are bad) there's a 30% change you can't charge if you want to which makes the army unplayable.

Exactly, getting into good position then rolling a 1 when all you need was a 2 plus and stopping less than an inch from the unit and getting charged in return is stupid. Yes there are chances that things can go bad in the game, and these are unavoidable. My issue with it is adding more chance to the game when its not necessary.

Its very easy to position your units to make a charge undesirable for your opponent. If you position right, especially with fast cavalry, you can make it so if they charge you, they will take a flank charge or in a worse situation a rear charge in the next turn.

This leaves them in a rough situation because they know next turn you are going to charge them.

Added another random 1d6 or 2d6 to units just makes no sense to me and takes away a huge tactical aspect. Also some fast Calvary will be able to charge 30 inches with good dice rolls, with an average of around 25 inches.... thats half the table in some cases.

WFB - The game of fantasy dice battles!

Where are people getting this possible 30" charge from? Movement of 8" plus 12" (the maximum you can get on 2d6) = 20" where I come from...

It seems a lot of comments in this thread are coming from people who only seem to play Warhammer and nothing else and by the sounds of it have only being playing the last couple of editions which were just updates really. Its not the first time there has been a drastic change to the rules and it won't be the last time either. As I said before, you don't have to play the new edition when it comes out unless your a tournie player...

Mick

Mick A wrote:It makes good business sense to make Warhammer more like 40k.

This is, of course, assuming that the people who play WHFB aren't doing it solely because it doesn't play like 40K.

Don't get me wrong, I am fine with 40K even after 5th Edition. However, if the two games are merged into one with only a variance of setting... why would I play both any more? I am not made out of money (and thus 90% of GW's higher ups would stop reading my post ), so if everything would meld together it'd give me even less incentive to expand into another system as I can just stick with what I have and not miss out on anything other than an army with scales or fur (if a 40Ker) / guys made of metal / chitin (if a WHFBite).

Mick A wrote:40k is the biggest seller of the two so if you make Warhammer similar your more likely to entice the 40k players across to play both.
As for losing current Warhammer players, let's be honest, we whinge, we moan, but we still carry on playing and buying...
Mick

Keep on buying? Less than 10% of my stuff has been bought for WHFB post-2007 (and I started WHFB in '04). I got a pair of Bolt Throwers for my O&G's. That's, about, it. I might keep playing, but - as I've covered earlier - that's just because GW's forced me between a rock and a hard place as I could either give up five years of WHFB hobbying (I've been hobbying nine overall) alongside over a thousand dollars worth of stuff for just one army, or I can bring it with me to the GW in the vain hope that another WHFB did the same because it was WotR mega-battle day and all the 40Kers are off at another shop. This isn't encouraging me to buy new stuff. It's encouraging me to pack the stuff away and wait until WHFB 9th Edition.

I'll admit, this is a bit of a strong reaction due to the new rules. However, I do not like them. If you look in this thread, lots of people do not like them. Many of the people who do like it are giving the excuse either "At least it's not WotR", or "It's more like WH40K". If you notice, most of the people in the second group admit they rarely play WHFB because they like 40K more, some even saying they don't play WHFB because it's too different from 40K. Those who play WHFB because they like it being different from 40K are not amused, and these rumors turning out to be true is a valid reason for such a group to be peeved.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:The changes in the way combat works and the hike in points value for a standard game look like they are an attempt to make big units more valuable in comparison to death stars. DS units will still exist, obviously (notably for elite armies like WoC) but should be more vulnerable to attrition - especially when people start taking large missile units.

Missile units are the main things that benefit for this rule to try balancing things out. Giving blocks of infantry that extra rank and reducing armor save penalties just makes things worse when fighting elite armies like WoC, not better. Can you imagine the trouble in trying to assault Chosen with the new rules (provided rumors are accurate)? They're pretty much always going to go first, and with their weaponskill, strength, and extra attacks, they're going to carve up more of the enemy than the enemy of them.

Mick A wrote:If people don't like the changes in the new edition why play that one? Unless your a tournie player nothing is stopping you from still playing the current edition (or even earlier ones, I actually prefer 3rd edition myself...).

Mick

If I hang with them at their place? Nothing. The problem being hanging with them at their place. Right now, it's just much more convenient to hang at a GW / Hobby Shop due to readiness of a table, that we're less bogged down by distractions, other people can play if something comes up, and so on. And in said hobby shop, at least GW's, playing prior editions is a big no-no outside something like "It's an hour before closing on Sunday evening. If you want to try and cram in a 3rd Edition 40K game, be my guest. Just make sure to have your stuff off the table in 45 minutes." While so far this hasn't proven problematic to me (I have been more interested in WHFB at the moment and thus haven't made the effort to try playing 4th Edition 40K in the last year or so), it will once this change is put into effect.

Mick A wrote:I think they have more chance of getting 40k players to try FB if its a lot closer to 40k than it is now. I personally prefer 40k as I really don't like the current FB edition (hence playing 3rd when I do play FB) but the more I read about the new edition the more interesting it sounds to me...

Mick

Oh yes, this ruleset is probably going to help with getting 40Kers into the WHFB system. It'll probably mean, even if all the Fantasy-ites leave and only about 50% of the 40Kers come over, they'll still probably break-even (and that's being exceptionally negative and positive at once, respectively for player factions). The problem being that those WHFB players who do it solely because it's not 40K (which happens to be most of my WHFB players in my area) are going to flutter away, and when that happens - with no "veterans" there to encourage further playing - the store will probably descend the last step into "Games Workshop: Where you can play 40K, and sometimes watch someone paint these odd figures on square bases" territory. Again, not that this will apply to all areas, but this is not something I am looking forward to in my area at all.

To make such a redical set of changes there must have been complaints about the current system.
Apart from the army books does anyone here have any problems with the current book that would make changing it worthwhile?
I don't see whats wrong really (apart from the army books)

Mick A wrote:It seems a lot of comments in this thread are coming from people who only seem to play Warhammer and nothing else and by the sounds of it have only being playing the last couple of editions which were just updates really. Its not the first time there has been a drastic change to the rules and it won't be the last time either. As I said before, you don't have to play the new edition when it comes out unless your a tournie player...

While people can always revert to older editions of the game, it does mean that the game that they enjoy has effectively been dropped in terms of rules support.

The problem I see with the drastic changes in this upcoming edition is that there has been precedence in doing a clean refresh of the whole game when implementing such big changes. From the sounds of things, they're trying to shoe-horn in a major revamp of the system and treating it as if it were just a minor "update".

Who knows? Maybe once we all get the actual book and play through it a bit, we'll change our minds. But as it is, the changes in general seem to be taking away a lot of the features of WFB that I and some others seem to have found appealing about Fantasy. I'll reserve final judgement for after I get the book, but the rumor mill is leaving an acrid taste in my mouth.

Jin wrote:

Mick A wrote:It seems a lot of comments in this thread are coming from people who only seem to play Warhammer and nothing else and by the sounds of it have only being playing the last couple of editions which were just updates really. Its not the first time there has been a drastic change to the rules and it won't be the last time either. As I said before, you don't have to play the new edition when it comes out unless your a tournie player...

While people can always revert to older editions of the game, it does mean that the game that they enjoy has effectively been dropped in terms of rules support.

The problem I see with the drastic changes in this upcoming edition is that there has been precedence in doing a clean refresh of the whole game when implementing such big changes. From the sounds of things, they're trying to shoe-horn in a major revamp of the system and treating it as if it were just a minor "update".

Who knows? Maybe once we all get the actual book and play through it a bit, we'll change our minds. But as it is, the changes in general seem to be taking away a lot of the features of WFB that I and some others seem to have found appealing about Fantasy. I'll reserve final judgement for after I get the book, but the rumor mill is leaving an acrid taste in my mouth.

Completly agree with you there.
+1
Couldn't say it better myself

How many of you guys out there who are saying you really dislike the rumours you've heard already can honestly say, hand on heart, that if the new edition does come out with these changes that you will stop playing WHFB?

Mick

Mick A wrote:Where are people getting this possible 30" charge from? Movement of 8" plus 12" (the maximum you can get on 2d6) = 20" where I come from...

It seems a lot of comments in this thread are coming from people who only seem to play Warhammer and nothing else and by the sounds of it have only being playing the last couple of editions which were just updates really. Its not the first time there has been a drastic change to the rules and it won't be the last time either. As I said before, you don't have to play the new edition when it comes out unless your a tournie player...

Mick

Unless you dont move double anymore. It looked like the rule said you move your normal charge distance (which for dark riders is 18 inches) then can add on 2d6 for another possible 12 inches.

That equals 30 inches.

If they make it so you move your normal move + Xd6 that would major suck, as it would actually reduce the distance most armies can charge 75% of the time.

How many of you guys out there who are saying you really dislike the rumours you've heard already can honestly say, hand on heart, that if the new edition does come out with these changes that you will stop playing WHFB?

Mick

I wont quit the game over it, it will still be a lot of fun. Would i start playing less if a lot of these rules go into effect, Probably. Would i quit all together, Doubtful.