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Minsc, I'm pretty much in concordance with you on all those points.

There are way too many things in here that are pushing WFB to be like 40k - pretty much all the things that I hated about 40k and why I switched over to Fantasy.

I am not wild about throwing a bucket of dice at every combat - while I understand that it helps average out rolls better, it slows the game down to constantly throw that many dice every round.

I think they went the wrong direction with Magic completely (assuming all these rumors are right).

Have to agree with Minsc. These rule changes, if rumours are correct, would probably be the death knell for WFB, in my mind. It sounds more like additional rules for an Apocalypse type expansion. If we cast our minds back to to the 6th edition hardback, there were lots of extra stuff for skirmish games and siege rules. Maybe the new rules that are being bandied around in this 550 page + rulebook are just that, and are not the radical change that people are talking about. The magic stuff sounds good, but if the talk about Initiative is true, then I'll be looking for something else to spend my time and money on.
I've always been a fan of making my own terrain so a focus on terrain is always welcome, but the 3000 points idea is not so welcome. I've got the time and money for such an enterprise, but the people I game against do not, and in all likelyhood will jump ship to 40K as a result of this. There is nothing worse than seeing geeks like us get into a lather about all this

well.... frak :(

is the 25% max for heroes gonna be true? does this mean I can't do my 2250 lizard list with 2 engines of the gods and a carasaur? :( Glad I know now while I'm in the middle of building my 2nd steg, I can make him normal and not have the engine I guess...

hmm wait.. I can't even do the carnasaur & 1 engine :( well, maybe if I do a 4000 pt game..... yuck.

I got them just so that I didn't have to have a bazillion little skinks all over the place, guess GW has bigger plans for my wallet.

Minsc wrote:Going over one at a time.

Kroothawk wrote:

Utterly confirmed by GW Spain to E-minis (spanish biggest online miniature shop)

- Measurement in inches (only for Spain)

No real difference to me (US player).

Nope, you've got this one wrong. Spain is moving over to inches and the rest of the world is moving to furlongs.

I'm not sure what to make of these 'rumours' as I've not been back in the hobby long and 10 years ago there wasn't much on the net. I'm not so fussed about 3000 pts as it varies wildly between high points cost armies like Chaos/Dwarves and horde armies like Goblins/Skaven. If you go to 2000 pts to make the little guys manageable then the more expensive point cost armies can get very small very quick. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised to see an Apocalypse style supplement for Fantasy and I would also like to see a kill team/skirmish style game for us terminal floaters who want to get a bit of everything. That might get covered by the missions though. I'm looking forward to the new hardback. I'll reserve judgement on the big box until I see the models. I don't like what they did to the Dwarves with those horrible plastics making it into the army boxes. I'd rather see a 40K type affair where the box has serviceable figs and then the usual releases sort out decent troops etc. I think the Skaven will be 'ok' as they've just been redone I hope the High elves don't suffer too badly though. Once I get the big book I'll probably just get a few metal Dwarves and get them sorted while waiting for a hopeful redesign.

Also don't forget esp with the way they've been going with 40K you don't have to stick to the rules on Army lists etc. I see quite a lot of tournament and armchair generals who do lots of theory crafting. I prefer a more narrative game so I don't mind a few extra characters.

It just seems weird. A lot of those rules (CRAAAAZY magic, little focus on psychology effects, variable charge distances, simplified combats, measuring just part of the base for easy unit movement) are directly taken from WotR. However unless there's some place that loves it, WotR is a terrible game and a horrible failure. I never see people play it in GW stores let alone independent hobby shops. Are they really that confident that these are going to work after the WotR book was horribly broken wide open to the point where there are lists that are literally unbeatable due to lazy design?

I'm getting really worried, a lot of these rules are really terrible, like the 40k initiative system, the current WHFB system is part of what made me come over to WHFB!

3000 points? So my 2250 points of miniatures (easily $300) isn't going to be eligible for tournaments anymore? What the feth?

So these rules are supposed to completely gimp new players, amirite?

I shouldn't have even posted this, as Jin and I obviously think the exact same on the majority if not all of these issues.

God damnit, GW, what are you doing? I like larger battles, but not when your products are terribly expensive! Come on!

Jin wrote:Minsc, I'm pretty much in concordance with you on all those points.

There are way too many things in here that are pushing WFB to be like 40k - pretty much all the things that I hated about 40k and why I switched over to Fantasy.

I am not wild about throwing a bucket of dice at every combat - while I understand that it helps average out rolls better, it slows the game down to constantly throw that many dice every round.

I think they went the wrong direction with Magic completely (assuming all these rumors are right).

Fantasy already plays much slower than 40k.. Even if you didnt roll any dice in WFB youd have a slower game, so I doubt "more dice" will slow it down at all.. The time spent on dice first involves determining # dice need to be rolled; pick up dice; roll dice; count results. Regardless if its 2 dice or 20 you have to go through the motion.. I can roll a handful and count the rolls in a few seconds.. maybe 2 seconds more if its a lot of dice. Not exactly a time consumer there

Now, if GW can write WFB rules to stop arguments due to the movement phase and the general slowness of the CC phase then you'll see a speed improvement

@Karon: GW is pay to play. It's not a cheap play game. If you can't afford it, that's too bad.

And really, $300 is nothing from a GW standpoint. I've got several times that spent on non-40k GW stuff, which is less than my 40k stuff.

When you're talking about $3k being nuked, that'll get people to sit up and listen.

I am extremely sceptical about this newest bunch of rumours.

Kirasu wrote:Fantasy already plays much slower than 40k.. Even if you didnt roll any dice in WFB youd have a slower game, so I doubt "more dice" will slow it down at all.. The time spent on dice first involves determining # dice need to be rolled; pick up dice; roll dice; count results. Regardless if its 2 dice or 20 you have to go through the motion.. I can roll a handful and count the rolls in a few seconds.. maybe 2 seconds more if its a lot of dice. Not exactly a time consumer there

Now, if GW can write WFB rules to stop arguments due to the movement phase and the general slowness of the CC phase then you'll see a speed improvement

I think GW will be tuning 8th to get players to spend time where GW thinks the game is interesting, like model's eye view in 40k. MEV was a deliberate slowdown of 40k added to 5E, and a rules simplification removing Magic Cylinder debates at the same time.

That is, GW already has a specific game time in mind, with a specific proportion spent moving, Magic, shooting, fighting.

Trust me, I've spent a lot more than $300 on GW....much, much more.

I was just saying, thats going to gimp a lot of new players, from a GW standpoint, thats bad. Its expensive as is, but causing them to 750 more points on to be tourny legal is kind of a bad business decision in my mind.

You don't HAVE to play 3000 pt games. Just like you don't have to play 2250 pt games or 2000 or 1850. if they start doing 3000 pt tournaments.... how many brand new players are gonna be fighting for a free ticket to vegas in a month? probably not too many.

for me, 3k is no biggie as thats the level I like to play at anyway, but I'm just as happy to play a 500 pt game too.

If charging does not allow liz to go first in CC im going to completely swap to my DE's
however in a 2k game here comes 4 /5 priests

To borrow a baseball phrase, 3k points for a WoC player is the sweet spot of our bat...

Actually, I got the impression of 3k being the norm for tournaments, like how your local GW runs tournaments, it's normally around 2k, 2250, or 2500.

That's kind of what I was thinking.

Something I like about they way they have updated the rules is that there will be a lot more kills now on both sides. So if you want to play a game the same size as before it will be a lot quicker. If you want a longer game you have to buy more models (or play really slowly).

But that part at least is the best of both worlds imo.

Incidently, if anyone is trying to keep track of the current rumour discussions it's best to check the sticky daily. Today has just been insane, I've had around 14 pms over on warseer and updated the sticky at least 4 times. Some days I don't edit it at all, but others I do a lot.

SPECULATION: Warhammer trailer video was totally pointless and a huge let-down.

ImperialTard wrote:SPECULATION: Warhammer trailer video was totally pointless and a huge let-down.

Not sure how much speculation that statement contained...

Facts, maybe... But then, teaser trailers rarely satisfy!

Xyz'r'Xaz'r'Xuz wrote:To borrow a baseball phrase, 3k points for a WoC player is the sweet spot of our bat...

If thes are true then WoC will be one of the best armies in the game with awesome Armour and in. 5 we would be striking first. Khorne warriors with duel hand weapon at 6 wide and two ranks get to fight {drool} thats 49 attacks

@Kirasu - YMMV.

In my personal experience, I've always had faster games with WFB than with 40k. The WFB Movement phase was (to me) a nice change of pace compared to 40k. Never got bogged down in any big arguments in the movement phase and always had CC resolved pretty readily. I've had far worse (and more frequent) arguments in my games of 40k than I have in my relatively brief tenure playing WFB.

While I'll concede that my point about dice throwing was somewhat hyperbolic, I always got fed up when I had to throw more and more dice per Close Combat in 40k. At a certain point, it felt like the victory was given to whomever could manage to fit more dice on the table at any given moment. I was not a fan of it, and appreciated the (IMO) quicker combat resolution of WFB. Looks like that's going to change.

Again, this is just my personal sentiment on the topic. Clearly we've had different experiences with regard to these points which skew our respective positions accordingly.

Edit: Double post

If miscasting is indeed to be serious business, here comes turn one "Pandemonium!"
8+ to cast. enemy spell-casters miscast on doubles!

(WTF with WoC power boost?)

sevend3f wrote:If miscasting is indeed to be serious business, here comes turn one "Pandemonium!"
8+ to cast. enemy spell-casters miscast on doubles!

(WTF with WoC power boost?)

Meh. The Dark Elves can do that with a ring. No need to cast.

Platuan4th wrote:

sevend3f wrote:If miscasting is indeed to be serious business, here comes turn one "Pandemonium!"
8+ to cast. enemy spell-casters miscast on doubles!

(WTF with WoC power boost?)

Meh. The Dark Elves can do that with a ring. No need to cast.

Theres also black tounge, dont forget! And if the miscast table is really that brutal... imagine it with infernal puppet

ImperialTard wrote:SPECULATION: Warhammer trailer video was totally pointless and a huge let-down.

AFFIRMATION: This post was totally pointless and a huge let-down.

Honestly, it's an entirely new edition for a game, so something like changing rules probably wouldn't translate well into a visual medium, so it's not surprising that it's a letdown. Wait a month for stuff to leak.

Apparently thery are peeing themselves with excitement at GW so the leaks have already started

We all know Fantasy is already better then 40k because it is not ok everyone move 6 inches. Fire gun with no - because they can move in shoot perfect accuracy as if standing still.While combat is who has better troops because people do not get scared when out number 40 to 1 but as long as I kill a guy you take ld test.
40k is so bad that why I dont like playing it as much it is babys first tabletop.Why I play Fantasy because it so much more with every thing.

It makes good business sense to make Warhammer more like 40k. 40k is the biggest seller of the two so if you make Warhammer similar your more likely to entice the 40k players across to play both.
As for losing current Warhammer players, let's be honest, we whinge, we moan, but we still carry on playing and buying...
Mick

Mick A wrote:It makes good business sense to make Warhammer more like 40k. 40k is the biggest seller of the two so if you make Warhammer similar your more likely to entice the 40k players across to play both.
As for losing current Warhammer players, let's be honest, we whinge, we moan, but we still carry on playing and buying...
Mick

Then what would be the point of two different game systems if they were both the same?