Fantasy 8th Edition Rumor

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**Spellbound**

That chaos vs empire battle is the most epic thing I've ever seen. I want to see that 2-page spread in the new book!

And I agree about the S4 bit. Since most infantry can be S4, it makes it so you never really get your armour saves that you're paying for. This way, there's a nice scale. Lots of things S3 that don't wound well. Lots of things that are S4 and wound better. Fewer things that are S5, and at that point you really start doing damage.

Look at the bright side. It also means most characters, sitting at S5 either by being S4 with a sword of might or halberd or by being S5 naturally, won't be as deadly by themselves.

**Grimstonefire**

Something rumoured:

Every unit with 1 point of Initiative higher than the enemy "gains" ASF. (edit: maybe just Strike First).

Chargers get some sort of I bonus.

The actual ASF to be reworked.

**viney**

This release is sounding good! Can't wait for it. Now the question for me is who is going to be my second army?

**Minsc**

VikingScott wrote:
In the llizardmen book from i dont know when (copright on the back says 1996) that i own says:
Characters: up to 50%
regiments: 25% +
Monster 0 to 25%
war machines: none. as the army does not have any
allies: none. cannot include allied forces
last two is just the army though
I could look to see if me 1st/2nd ed dwarf book says if you guys want

It's pretty much the exact thing with O&G for '93. Differences being "regiments" are referred to as "Mobs", and both War Machines and Allies each have 0-25%.

**Erasoketa**

Four categories in the 1996 Wood Elves book.

Characters 0-50%
Units 25%+
Monsters 0-25%
Allies 0-25%

Allies were Empire, Dwarfs, Bretonia and HE.

I love this book :_)

**Spellbound**

Grimstonefire wrote:Something rumoured:

Every unit with 1 point of Initiative higher than the enemy "gains" ASF. (edit: maybe just Strike First).

Chargers get some sort of I bonus.

The actual ASF to be reworked.

So wait, they're making fantasy follow the 40k initiative system, with some sort of innate bonus for charging?

**Karon**

Its rumored, sir.

Wouldn't like that one bit, the current system makes perfect sense, I'd hate to lose Strikes First for charging.

**Grimstonefire**

If anyone is following it, I've updated the rumour sticky.

I haven't put the initiative thing on yet, as I'm waiting for someone in the know to comment on it.

**Chimera_Calvin**

I can't get access to warseer at work - any chance someone could copy the current round-up?

**Erasoketa**

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I can't get access to warseer at work - any chance someone could copy the current round-up?

Ok

Grimstonefire@Warseer wrote:
Note: This is only a summary of rumours that have been discussed in recent months. Rumours are subject to change. They are only 100% correct when they are facts.

I have tried to take out all the ones that have been quickly discredited, and a lot of this comes from reliable sources (who have been contradictory). Just so I am clear, none of what follows are rumours from me, they are all from other people.

Take with as much salt as is necessary, and don't blame me if any of it is wrong (I had to wade through around 200 pages of **** in french, german and english, and if I see people moaning about 25% again... *shudders* )

Note as well that none of the names of rules below are official, I just put something fun there for reference when I was collating.

Updating this: Much as I'd like to have the time and motivation to read all rumour discussions, PLEASE PM ME here with info, only if there is a significant rumour discussion from someone you guys really trust. I know there are snippets coming out in the general discussion here, and on many other forums. So rather than have to trawl across the web every few days, if you guys want this updated you will need to pm me with the info. I will try and keep ontop of things.

Note as well that unlike the other thread this is only for rumour discussion for the 8th edition rulebook itself. Not what armies are getting which releases (save that for the other thread).

More reliable rumours

* Army construction is moving back to percentages.
* Strength in Depth/ Stepping up
* Crush attack for larger creatures
* 40mm models moving to 3 model-wide ranks.
* Multiple objective driven scenarios in the rulebook
* All non-english rulebooks are moving to inches.
* Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The pool is decided by 2D6. Magic users add their magic level to the score rolled. All Wizards have a chance to generate more power dice.
* All missile units fire in two ranks (not just High Elves)
* Autobreaking from fear or terror is gone.

Warhammer 8th Ed Rulebook to be released July 10th

Other rumours (and description of above)

These are all listed in no particular order.

ARMY SELECTION

* Army construction is moving back to percentages.
This is looking more like 25% max characters, 25% min core, 25% max special and 25% max rare (anonymous source, but trustworthy ) The 25% characters includes mounts.
* Slot system will not be dropped
* Categories for core/special/rare are remaining.
* There *may* be something to prevent spamming...
* There will be a system wide errata to clear up issues for each army.

MAGIC

NOTE: The magic rumours nobody seems to agree on, so rather than try and find what exactly the truth is I will just put here most of the theories

Edit: I've sorted out the ones that seem more likely, based on the info from an anonymous (trustworthy) source:

* Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The pool is decided by 2D6. Magic users add their magic level to the score rolled. All Wizards have a chance to generate more power dice. - Avian
* Giving irresistible force a downside
* Double 6 = a miscast
* Making miscasts much more devastating.
* Something rumoured is carrying over power dice, but holding too many could lead to a ‘magic backlash’. Wizard will recieve wounds or hits if he didn't use the excess power-dice (than originally allocated) at end of the turn.
* All the book Lores will have more supportive spells than they have now, and will all be getting a major overhaul. Each lore to get a mega spell.
* Spells can be chosen, not rolled for.

And the other rumours:

* If a wizard fails to cast (not counting dispels) twice in a row he miscasts
* Dispel scroll only adding dispel dice (+2 dice to the dispel dice pool once per game). (edit - possibly speculation)
* Dispel attempts to be made by specific wizards (presumable your casting level is beneficial for dispelling spells)
* A higher chance of miscast with multiple casters.
* If a wizard fail to cast a spell he can't cast other spells in the same phase.

COMBAT

NOTE: Trying to nail down what the truth is here is very hard. Once it is explained properly by someone who knows categorically what it is I will update this

Some of this is only my understanding of what has been discussed.

Edit:

There are basically 2 big new rules here; what I have named 'Stepping up', and a 'Horde' rule. - Harry.

What is 100% clear is that models in the second rank will have some role to play in most combats.

* Stepping up. – Harry/ Avian

Basically how this works is that the second rank get to fight only if the guy in front is killed. But they only get a single attack regardless of what their profile attacks are, or what weapons they are carrying* . It is not clear yet whether they get to use special rules in addition to this or not at all (frenzy, hatred and killing blow etc). Only once there are insufficient models left to replace those that are killed in the attacking rank will the overall attacks of the unit drop.

*It has yet to be clarified exactly how models with spears get to use them.

No word on the impact for High Elves.

Cavalry still only fight in 1 rank.

Example:

You have a unit of 20 guys, 5x4, 5 of which are in base contact with the enemy and 15 are not. The enemy strikes first and kills 6 of your guys. As you now have 14 models you have sufficient numbers to step up and replace casualties.

Because the front 2 ranks consists of 10 models overall, 6 of which are now dead, you still get to fight back with 4 models. In the next round of combat, the ranks are reset, so 5 models are in base contact, 5 in the second rank (capable of ‘stepping up’) and 4 in the third (remember, you still have 14 models). This time the enemy kills a further 8 models, leaving you with 2 models that get to fight back and a unit of 6.

This is the same regardless of which side they are attacked on.
* Horde
Fight in 3 ranks if 10+ wide (4 with spears). - Avian.
OR
Some benefit to fighting in large units, may automatically become stubborn beyond a certain unit size. – Harry - (edit) seemingly confirmed from another source).

* One Save to ruin them all!
Models will only ever get one save (be it ward, mundane or magical armour). No word yet on whether regeneration is included. From Alessio himself!

* 40mm models
40mm models moving to 3 model-wide ranks. Ogre sized models are officially being put into their own size category (finally).

* Crush them!
Additional stomp/crush attacks for big infantry (ogres, trolls, etc) to represent them trampling lesser races underfoot. Bigger bonus for large creatures like giants. These are not impact hits. (edit: these could be overrun hits)

* Fewer armour save modifiers

* Chariots
S7 autokill is gone. (edit: possibly not speculation)

MOVEMENT

* Measure the distance for the furthest moving model, and perform whatever manoeuvres you wish within that lax limitation. Command models will have some role to play in giving free manoeuvre as you move (Musician bonus similar to Ancient Battles?).
* Charging.
An added 'bonus' of getting an 'extra' +D6 or +D3 inches of movement to your move range (presumably the D6 or D3 decided by the category of warrior; infantry/cavalry/ogre sized).
* Heavy cavalry no longer able to march
- Heavy cavalry, defined as any cavalry with a 2+ or better save, cannot march. They can double their move when charging as normal, but they are not allowed to make a March move.
- "Medium and Fast cavalry remain the same".

SHOOTING

* As it happens to be the same rumour; fewer armour save modifiers.
* Missile units fire in two ranks (not just High Elves). - Harry & someone else.

PSYCHOLOGY

* Fear and Terror
When in combat, units or monsters with these rules gain 1 or 2 or 3 points of Static Combat modifier. This is added to the number of wounds caused by the Fear/Terror model/unit, as well as ranks, banners, etc. These bonuses may be cumulative between fear/terror causing things attacking a unit. (edit: Some changes are happening to fear and terror, but they are much simpler than this)
* Autobreaking from fear or terror is gone.

OTHER RULEBOOK CONTENTS

* Multiple objective driven scenarios in the rulebook (no kill points). See GW grand tournament and doubles scenarios.
* 15 or so missions in the new rulebook. 9 or 10 of the missions required Core units to capture objectives. Units must have banners to capture objectives. Several missions had multiple objectives
* Victory Conditions
Interestingly something I picked up from a post was that ‘victory conditions’ have been referred to in the last 3 books, not victory points.
* Terrain
Difficult terrain may be merged with very difficult and encompass more things (presumably more than just affecting movement).

Discredited rumours
Fight-until-someone-breaks
Lapping around
Weapons using the flame template or large or small blast templates automatically hit any model in contact rather than cause partial hits.
__________________

**Chimera_Calvin**

Wow - thanks! didn't expect quite that much detail!!

**Demogerg**

Interesting changes. I stopped playing WHFB about 2 years ago because I moved and my current area has almost no fantasy players, but with the new edition I can probly convince some of my 40k buddies to pick it up.

it'll be fun to see how all these changes effect my Vampire Counts.

25% characters REALLY hurts VC, seeing as they are usually closer 50% characters.

fear/outnumber no longer autobreaking is a huge blow, but to replace it with a static CR modifier seems to make a bit more sense from a balance perspective.

Black Knights becoming heavy cavalry when given barding will severly slow them down, so I suspect I'll be fielding them without barding from now on.

And I suspect I'll be fielding huge blocks of zombies now too, 60+ probably wont be uncommon. + a bunch of CR for rank bonuses, 3 ranks fighting, outnumbering, banner, fear, should be pretty ace actually.

**Scottywan82**

Don't worry too much about the characters. If the %s are anything like they used to be, the cap was 50% for Characters, not 25%.

**Ostrakon**

* Horde
Fight in 3 ranks if 10+ wide (4 with spears). - Avian.

That sounds pretty fun, but since I don't know WFB rules very well, only the 5 or so in base contact per rank can actually fight, right?

So if I have 10x3 skaven charging a 5x? unit of something, I still only get to attack with about 15 of them?

**Erasoketa**

Ostrakon wrote:
* Horde
Fight in 3 ranks if 10+ wide (4 with spears). - Avian.

That sounds pretty fun, but since I don't know WFB rules very well, only the 5 or so in base contact per rank can actually fight, right?

So if I have 10x3 skaven charging a 5x? unit of something, I still only get to attack with about 15 of them?

Yes, I guess you would attack with 15. But your unit might do 30 attacks depending on the circumstances (i.e., the enemy units size).

**Kroothawk**

Here three more rumour collections from supposedly GW sources in Spain, again collected and translated by Hoarmurel over at Warseer:

Utterly confirmed by GW Spain to E-minis (spanish biggest online miniature shop)

- Measurement in inches (only for Spain)
- Unit strength concept is gone.
- Fighting by initiative, like W40k.
- Magic is going to be much more powerful, but can “kill” the wizards. The miscasting table is completely changed.
- The rulebook (550 pages) has a lot of background about the old World and the new lands, new background.
- Shooting units on bended knee can fire with 2 rows.
- No limits in points to each unit class: Characters, Core, Special, Rare. You only have to keep the percentage for each class, i don’t know the exact amount yet.
- GW tournaments will be with armies of 3000 pts, I’m 99% sure of this.
- Fighting in close combat with 2 or more rows for all units. No details.
- Changes in some weapons descriptions, like pikes…
- The concept of the combat row wil change pretty much. I’ll detail this in few time.
- Terrain! A lot of class of games (like the missions of 40k), more important “golf courses” gone, because the table must have 1D6+2 (or perhaps +4, i can’t remember). The terrain elements will have differents effects inside and around them.

Supposedly from a GW manager to an Indy shop owner:

1.- Re-printing of ALL the Warhammer army books throughout a year. (only in Spain)
2.- The most powerful magic ever (with great changes)
3.- Mandatory in all the games: 1D6 + 4 terrain elements
4.- Games of 3000 pts.
5.- CC Fight in 2 rows (it seems all the units)
6.- Infantry with Spears: CC with 3 rows
7.- High Elves spearmen: CC with 5 rows (!!!)
8.- Close combat is resolved in initiative order
9.- Reduced psychology (no more details)
10.- Army list based in percentages. This will entail some armies to take 4 or more heros, whilst they don’t exceed the point percentage.
11.- All the measurement in inches (interest only Spain)
12.- Revamp of armies like Ogre Kingdoms
13.- Terrain subject: The gameboard will be plenty of terrain elements. Those elements will not affect so much the movement but will affect fleeing units, like in the War of the Ring game.
14.- Different class of missions.

Supposedly from a GW email to Indy shops:

Rules-wise, it can be summarize in one sentence: “More units, more magic, more characters, with this new edition the Warhammer battles will grow up, and it becomes much much bigger.

The new rulebook will not cancel any book or expansion.

The battle for the Skull pass will be withdrawn from shops soon, so buy it while you can.

Another tidbit from an email to E-minis, a big miniature online store in Spain:

Charges will have a random value added:

Infantry: Will charge their movement + 1D6 inches
Cavalry: Will charge their movement + 2D6 inches

This does not apply to the flying units.

The D6 could be not exactly like that, but otherwise is confirmed 99%.

Another detail: We cannot tell you the new army to be released, only thing i can say is that it will be released in some moment between August and October.

Expect the summer army to be 40k.

**Jin**

Sigh. I actually dislike a lot of those rules. We'll see how it goes.

Not keen on the 40k Initiative system.

Interesting that they require more 5-10 pieces of terrain.

**Ixquic**

Unless there's some severe changes to how victory is determined or hard 25% caps on characters these sound pretty crummy. There's almost no way to beat a Bloodthirster at all since he effectively has ASF against most units and characters under the the 40k style initiative system. Gonna be pretty funny when a unit of knights charges in and is murdered before they have a change to do any attacks. I know the obvious answer is to shoot it, but a decent amount of armies have no reasonable options for that so is that really acceptable?

I also hope that if they are going to reduce psychology effects they are going to null any "immune to psychology" rules although it sounds like leadership checks are going to change a lot in general.

**wildger**

"Army list based in percentages. This will entail some armies to take 4 or more heros, whilst they don’t exceed the point percentage."

I just don't see how it can be done with a 25% cap.

**Ahtman**

This might actually get me back into Fantasy Battles.

**dietrich**

Jin wrote:Interesting that they require more 5-10 pieces of terrain.

Conspiracy mode. Of course they want more terrain, they make kits for that.

**Ratbarf**

Hmm, 3000 points? Looks kind of like a money grab to me, thats what, an extra 1000 points over regular tournament size now?

**JohnHwangDD**

A lot of tournaments were 2250, but going to 3000 is a big jump. WFB scalable FOC, we hardly knew ye!

**Jin**

dietrich wrote:
Jin wrote:Interesting that they require more 5-10 pieces of terrain.

Conspiracy mode. Of course they want more terrain, they make kits for that.

Point. Though most people I know scratch build theirs (or just build using model train terrain - much cheaper). I was more interested in that it encourages for more interesting games.

**Ixquic**

Ratbarf wrote:Hmm, 3000 points? Looks kind of like a money grab to me, thats what, an extra 1000 points over regular tournament size now?

This also has me worried. It sounds like the new system is going to be geared around a lot of models and stuff getting killed really fast similar to WotR. However I REALLY don't want to have to spend the time to put out 3000 points worth of models just to have them blasted off the table in two turns.

**H.B.M.C.**

Pretty soon the rules will say that games of Warhammer can only be played on RoB Boards.

**JohnHwangDD**

Ixquic wrote:
Ratbarf wrote:Hmm, 3000 points? Looks kind of like a money grab to me, thats what, an extra 1000 points over regular tournament size now?

This also has me worried. It sounds like the new system is going to be geared around a lot of models and stuff getting killed really fast similar to WotR. However I REALLY don't want to have to spend the time to put out 3000 points worth of models just to have them blasted off the table in two turns.

That is what fillers are for! If you're on 20mm bases, you buy 40mm monster bases and make 4:1 fillers.

Personally, if it goes like that, I'll not be surprised to see people field Chariot and Giant-base fillers in their large blocks.

**Alpharius**

3000 points?

I guess we knew this was coming - selling miniatures is what it is all about.

40K Style Initiative for HTH?

Ugh - no.

Random Charge distances?

Horrible idea!

Hopefully reality is something far from these things!

**MeanGreenStompa**

Always used 3k armies back in 3rd ed. Big bloody armies with lots of outflanking units. It helped tone down the heroes and super elites.

**Minsc**

Going over one at a time.

Kroothawk wrote:
Utterly confirmed by GW Spain to E-minis (spanish biggest online miniature shop)

- Measurement in inches (only for Spain)

No real difference to me (US player).

- Unit strength concept is gone.

An odd change for me, with several implications if true: Removal of outnumber, cavalry are meant to be fielded in smaller units, flanking is either going to be made easier or harder (How would flanking to negate ranks work if you have no US requirement?), and so on. Overall, I'm not liking it, but for the most part this doesn't exactly look game breaking beyond meaning people who field stuff like Manticore or Dragon-lords are no longer going to be able to solo regiments as readily.

- Fighting by initiative, like W40k.

This one is big. Very, very big for me, anyways. I play Orcs & Goblins. With this, I've pretty much been told "I lose". WS3 / 4 is a joke against any combat unit worth its name in WHFB, and T4 / 6+ save is even moreso meaning I might as well - even with the "step up" just pick up the unit. This rule is going to be horrendous against armies that have low initiatives but don't have an armor save up the wazoo, but I figure for the most part it's only game-breaking for certain armies (Skaven are likely going to be no worse off against Empire, for instance).

- Magic is going to be much more powerful, but can “kill” the wizards. The miscasting table is completely changed.

Could be a game-breaker, won't know until I see the rules. Only thing I dread is that it means O&G become "1-6: Wizard blows up and army takes 3D6 hits a unit" or something like that. O&G have a habit of being given worse miscast tables than other armies, and if this trend goes into 8th then that's a strong discourager from fielding mages as anything other than scroll caddies / staff of sorcery polishers.

- The rulebook (550 pages) has a lot of background about the old World and the new lands, new background.

Can't complain here.

- Shooting units on bended knee can fire with 2 rows.

On bended knee? As in, those models bending can get extra shots, or is there some new rule that's being hinted at here?

- No limits in points to each unit class: Characters, Core, Special, Rare. You only have to keep the percentage for each class, i don’t know the exact amount yet.

Don't quite understand this, but see the Magic "Could be gamebreaker" - some lists are going to be effected much moreso than others.

- GW tournaments will be with armies of 3000 pts, I’m 99% sure of this.

Beyond meaning more $$$ to play (if only because of the need for more models), this doesn't look too bad to me. I don't play the tourney scene, though, so I can't properly judge here.

- Fighting in close combat with 2 or more rows for all units. No details.

Mixed with the initiative thing, this sorta sounds like it's going to start becoming a 40K-lite. This rumor, depending on the details, is mixed for me, but as always it could be a game-breaker.

- Changes in some weapons descriptions, like pikes…

Does this mean we'll be seeing a Pike return? I don't think there's any army right now that can use them outside Dogs of War, and they haven't exactly been given much love. Or is the Spanish translation for Pike akin to stuff like Spears, Halberds, and so on?

- The concept of the combat row wil change pretty much. I’ll detail this in few time.

Need to know more before I can comment.

- Terrain! A lot of class of games (like the missions of 40k), more important “golf courses” gone, because the table must have 1D6+2 (or perhaps +4, i can’t remember). The terrain elements will have differents effects inside and around them.

Terrain effect would have to be changed, or terrain feature sizes would need to drop. Of course they start dropping the number of skirmisher armies whilst increasing the amount of terrain pieces. D6+4 would be overkill, so I can only assume that the number increases with table sizes (D3+2 for 4x4, D6+2 for 4x6, D6+4 for greater sizes?).

1.- Re-printing of ALL the Warhammer army books throughout a year. (only in Spain)

I apologize for my earlier comment in regard to the reprint here.

2.- The most powerful magic ever (with great changes)

Though in no way related to 8th, $10 says Spirit Totem goes poof / decreases in DD provided because of this statement.

3.- Mandatory in all the games: 1D6 + 4 terrain elements

That... that's not right. I mean, not right at all. Unless Terrain does practically nothing now, in which case why would you want it - this rule just clusters up everything outside a board greater than 6x6 in size.

4.- Games of 3000 pts.

I'm starting to disbelieve a good amount of these rules. This isn't sounding like WHFB. This is sounding like WHFB: Apocalypse. Extra terrain, bigger game sizes, percentages, extra attacks and spell power, it just doesn't sound like a new WHFB edition.

5.- CC Fight in 2 rows (it seems all the units)
6.- Infantry with Spears: CC with 3 rows
7.- High Elves spearmen: CC with 5 rows (!!!)

I'm not exactly enjoying the number of attacks represented in this. See the "WHFB Apocalypse" comment.

8.- Close combat is resolved in initiative order

See my comment on this earlier in my post.

9.- Reduced psychology (no more details)

40K 40K 40K... this is sounding more and more like "WH40K - Spears and Bows edition" than "WHFB - 8th Edition" (40Ker or not, you have to admit that compared to WHFB 40K's leadership is a joke more often than not).

10.- Army list based in percentages. This will entail some armies to take 4 or more heros, whilst they don’t exceed the point percentage.

Covered above. This is balancing / negligible at times (Would anyone complain about another WS4 S & T4 Goblin Big Boss in a 2K point game?), but in several lists this could prove a game-breaker or require a complete overhaul.

12.- Revamp of armies like Ogre Kingdoms

Need more info to comment.

13.- Terrain subject: The gameboard will be plenty of terrain elements. Those elements will not affect so much the movement but will affect fleeing units, like in the War of the Ring game.

I'm still getting more and more a "Less WHFB more 40K" image from this - to be honest I've thought bare-minimal about WotR when seeing these rumors. Are we sure that 5th Edition 40K wasn't a playtesting for 8th Edition, not WotR?

Rules-wise, it can be summarize in one sentence: “More units, more magic, more characters, with this new edition the Warhammer battles will grow up, and it becomes much much bigger.

I can see this pushing several people out of the hobby. Specifically, those who like small, elite, characterful armies. Not exactly a gamebreaker, but it will drive some people away (and, likely, some into the hobby in turn).

The new rulebook will not cancel any book or expansion.

Sounds more and more to me like a Supplement and not Rulebook.

Charges will have a random value added:

Infantry: Will charge their movement + 1D6 inches
Cavalry: Will charge their movement + 2D6 inches

This I'm wary about, as it directly contradicts other ones unless we have specific interpretations (Cavalry can possibly get a 30" charge as 18" from M9 doubled plus 2D6"?). I do not like the development of relying against randomness, but I'm sure GW's going to have some counter-measure in-game (likely unit command).

I'm, pretty much undividedly, less than amused by these rules. I'll still play, as I don't have the money or other hobbies ATM to just give up some $2000+ and 9 years of endeavors just because of a crummy rule set, but it's not exactly keeping me in high spirits. To be quite frank, if many of these rumors are true my store's probably going to turn undividedly to 40K as the Fantasy players are already phasing out whilst the WotR players vanished about three months after the release.