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Again, we should separate the practicals from the Battle tech gaming aspects.
Practicals-meh A good helicopter eats both. Suspend that and I could see the morale implications, especially if its a big honking titan sized walker, espeically if you shoot at it and it doesn't die. Tank fright would set in pretty quickly.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
It's worked in the past when coupled with actual physical attack/the threat of attack. Stuka air sirens were terrifying, but only because people knew what was coming at them. If the mecha can prove itself on the battlefield, then its appearance could be demoralizing, but if it goes down as easy as tanks do, then perhaps not so much.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
dogma wrote:
Helicopters can't hold territory, and get brutalized by properly equipped infantry.
Tanks can't hold territory particularly well either. But Frazz is right in a pracitcal sense, attack helicopters, CAS aircraft, long range artillery will tear either massive superheavy tanks, or big mechs apart.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
sebster wrote:There's a huge problem with it being made up when you try to use it to explain how mechs might actually function in a plausible future military.
No there isn't.
The technology doesn't exist today, but it is plausible to believe it might exist in the future. This isn't time travel we're talking about.
If you're not willing to talk about the potential uses of walker vehicles once potential future technology applied to the concept overcomes the limitations of current technology, then just say so, so that I can ignore you and talk to someone more interesting who isn't just being hard-headed.
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Kilkrazy wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The only conceivable way the absurd sizes of something like Titans or battlemechs would make sense is if you had something gamebreaking that either couldn't be scaled down to fit in a tank, or required a sufficiently large amount of power that you couldn't fit the necessary powerplant into a tank. Something like the voidshields on titans, I suppose. All highly unlikely, really.
You also have to assume that the gamerbreaking item cannot for some reason be put into a titan sized tank, because the big tank would have the void shield and all the other comparative advantages too, so it would be better.
Dunno, wouldn't the average massive tnak actually be a bigger target to airstrikes? After all it has more horizontal surface on its top to hit.
A. It's got a void shield, that's the point of it.
B. If the armour matters, your engineers have to explain how they managed to put enough armour on the titan to protect it all around, but were not able to put armour on the tank, which has a much better ratio of surface area to volume which makes it easier to armour.
C. We don't know it's easier to hit flat things from an aircraft than standy uppy things. It's certainly easier to hit standy uppy things from a gun on the ground.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/14 21:23:56
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Why does that pic make me want to shout WOLVERINESSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh wait here's why:
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Ahtman wrote:This is the kind of thread that sends sensible women running for the hills away from gamers.
It took you 5,420 posts to figure that out?
The sensible women ran a long time ago...
Not all posts on Dakka are that way and I never claimed as much. Arguing Gundam vs Clan Wolf vs the USMC is the kind of thread that would do that though.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The only conceivable way the absurd sizes of something like Titans or battlemechs would make sense is if you had something gamebreaking that either couldn't be scaled down to fit in a tank, or required a sufficiently large amount of power that you couldn't fit the necessary powerplant into a tank. Something like the voidshields on titans, I suppose. All highly unlikely, really.
You also have to assume that the gamerbreaking item cannot for some reason be put into a titan sized tank, because the big tank would have the void shield and all the other comparative advantages too, so it would be better.
The idea was an equally massive tank would have a harder time getting around, although that's again based on the requirement of keeping the mech light enough not to just sink into the ground. If there were something akin to a void shield on it, you could probably eschew armor almost completely, while the powerplant used may well have enough surplus output to manage the issue of moving the legs and keeping the thing upright. So a narrower profile than a comparable tank, meaning it could theoretically fit on a two lane road, while maintaining the vantage point of a low flying helicopter, but with a more stable platform and potentially heavier armaments. Completely useless if you don't have some power intensive gamebreaker like a voidshield, though.
dogma wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: What says "compared to you I am a god, and there is nothing you can do to change that" like a fifteen foot tall monstrosity that's impervious to small arms fire and can swat RPGs out of the air?
Tactical nuclear weapons, or the aforementioned drone air force.
Neither of which can occupy territory, though. For surgically removing the enemies ability to strike, small, maneuverable drones would undoubtedly be the way to go. For projecting the image of your power into occupied territory, a walking testament to your technological superiority that's as tall as a house is at least something to consider, so long as it can actually reach out and tear something apart, and can whether any infantry portable weapons that could be brought against it.
Ahtman wrote:Arguing Gundam vs Clan Wolf vs the USMC is the kind of thread that would do that though.
Still makes more sense than the Twilight vs True Blood/Sookie Stackhouse novels vs Harry Potter discussions I've seen elsewhere.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Or the shipping wars. Dear God the shipping wars. You think 40k players are bad in their debates over tactics? You have never seen the furry shippers can unleash upon each other when they're challenged. Team Edward vs. Team Jacob is only the tip of the iceberg....
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
ChrisWWII wrote:Or the shipping wars. Dear God the shipping wars. You think 40k players are bad in their debates over tactics? You have never seen the furry shippers can unleash upon each other when they're challenged. Team Edward vs. Team Jacob is only the tip of the iceberg....
Spock and Kirk OTP!
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Ahtman wrote:Arguing Gundam vs Clan Wolf vs the USMC is the kind of thread that would do that though.
Still makes more sense than the Twilight vs True Blood/Sookie Stackhouse novels vs Harry Potter discussions I've seen elsewhere.
And those would be the type of females that send men running for the hills. Who am I kidding, they could be totally crazy but the slightest hint of side boob and the guys not going anywhere.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote:Arguing Gundam vs Clan Wolf vs the USMC is the kind of thread that would do that though.
Still makes more sense than the Twilight vs True Blood/Sookie Stackhouse novels vs Harry Potter discussions I've seen elsewhere.
And those would be the type of females that send men running for the hills. Who am I kidding, they could be totally crazy but the slightest hint of side boob and the guys not going anywhere.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But there's still a limit on what speeds are feasible in a close environment, such as a city. Get something that can move twenty or thirty miles an hour at full tilt,
There is a limit on feasible speeds. That limit is not 20 or 30 miles an hour. At which point you're looking at a highly specialised piece of gear that can't move to the conflict site at the same speed as the troops in the APCs, and can't bug out at the same speed.
The only conceivable way the absurd sizes of something like Titans or battlemechs would make sense is if you had something gamebreaking that either couldn't be scaled down to fit in a tank, or required a sufficiently large amount of power that you couldn't fit the necessary powerplant into a tank. Something like the voidshields on titans, I suppose. All highly unlikely, really.
Or you consider the possibility of a future society which doesn't care, or possibly might not be capable of understanding, efficiency and effectiveness. In 40k you have an Imperium with highly advanced technology but minimal capability for rational thought, so you could see them building something as inherently silly as a Imperator Titan.
As you say, though, it's all highly unlikely.
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Melissia wrote:No there isn't.
The technology doesn't exist today, but it is plausible to believe it might exist in the future. This isn't time travel we're talking about.
If you're not willing to talk about the potential uses of walker vehicles once potential future technology applied to the concept overcomes the limitations of current technology, then just say so, so that I can ignore you and talk to someone more interesting who isn't just being hard-headed.
I'm willing to talk about the potential uses. It's just that, as I've explained to you several times now and you have incredibly failed to grasp, the potential of those designs shouldn't be justified by the fluff from Battletech.
I don't agree with Sir Pseudonymous' ideas about how mechs might be deployed in the future, but he's basing his ideas in reality, and considering the actual limitations and advantages of mechs. Whereas you've been arguing the advantages of mechs in the Battletech world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:It's worked in the past.
Name one piece of military hardware in the world today, or on the design table of any military developer, that has fear as a primary element of it's design.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Platuan4th wrote:Methinks you're undervaluing the effects of morale on a force a tad much.
Morale is hugely important. But you remove the enemy's moral by putting overwhelming levels of firepower on his position, and killing them. There is a kind of fear that comes from the enemy being able to kill you that is a huge part of warfare, and it can't be matched by pottering around in a device that looks scary.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/03/15 03:36:54
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Remember that the Mechanicum has an emotional investment in union with the machine and in becoming cyborgized. Being able to do that with a titanic man-shaped engine is done for spiritual reasons, much like the Gothic Cathedrals, impractical crap that they were, required so much technological innovation for so little return. Titans exist in spite of their impracticality, not because of it.
ChrisWWII wrote:Tanks can't hold territory particularly well either. But Frazz is right in a pracitcal sense, attack helicopters, CAS aircraft, long range artillery will tear either massive superheavy tanks, or big mechs apart.
Helicopters are great at blowing up tanks.
But tanks can stay in the field for longer, sustain an assault on an enemy position.
It's why people talk about combined arms. Because different elements of the armed forces do different things.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote:Name one piece of military hardware in the world today, or on the design table of any military developer, that has fear as a primary element of it's design.
Nuclear frickin' weapons, where the amount of fear is equal to the megatons of feth you that the weapon is designed to convey.
Nurglitch wrote:Remember that the Mechanicum has an emotional investment in union with the machine and in becoming cyborgized. Being able to do that with a titanic man-shaped engine is done for spiritual reasons, much like the Gothic Cathedrals, impractical crap that they were, required so much technological innovation for so little return. Titans exist in spite of their impracticality, not because of it.
Absolutely. If you consider future societies that are capable of incredibly high tech but aren't concerned efficiency and practicality, then you can create all kinds of weird and woolly designs.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
But tanks can stay in the field for longer, sustain an assault on an enemy position.
It's why people talk about combined arms. Because different elements of the armed forces do different things.
But the question was not 'how do I fight a war?' the question was, 'Between an equivalent mech and tank who would win?' which was answered by saying that helicopters, CAS, and artillery would kill either of them equally well. Of course if my objective is to take nad hold a position, I'd use combined arms, but if my objective is to 'blow up mechs/tanks'....
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
ChrisWWII wrote:But the question was not 'how do I fight a war?' the question was, 'Between an equivalent mech and tank who would win?' which was answered by saying that helicopters, CAS, and artillery would kill either of them equally well. Of course if my objective is to take nad hold a position, I'd use combined arms, but if my objective is to 'blow up mechs/tanks'....
Was that the question? Fraz just announced 'helicopters kill them both', it didn't seem to be in response to anything specific. You agreed and I just thought I'd point out that while it's true, we still have tanks in the field because they do something that no other unit can do.
Confusion aside, I think we agree on this in general, yeah?
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote:
Absolutely. If you consider future societies that are capable of incredibly high tech but aren't concerned efficiency and practicality, then you can create all kinds of weird and woolly designs.
Isn't that basically the raison d'être of most science fiction?
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
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Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
Maybe you hang out with immature women. Maybe you're attracted to immature women because you think they'll let you shpadoink them.