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Asuron wrote:This argument has been addressed before, used game sales hurts noone, its like a used cars sale or buying a used book.

This is a very poor comparison. Books are printed for many years as are cars. Video games typically have a short period of printing with subsequent printing runs done based on demand. Every used copy of a new release sold is one less new copy with a cut going to the developer. On top of that, these used game sales cutting into new game sales often short-sells the game's sales numbers that go back to the publisher and prompt the publisher to decide against further printing. This puts a hard cap on the potential success of a game and can be the nail in the coffin for a new IP attempting to become a franchise.

To be clear I am not talking about buying a used copy of Call of Duty 2 for the Xbox 360 as that game is nearly six years old and is well past the printing phase. Purchasing a used copy of Call of Duty 2 on the Xbox 360 hurts absolutely nobody as the publisher no longer has any new copies to sell to retailers; what is in circulation is all that there will ever be so purchasing used has no adverse effects. Purchasing a used copy of a new release like Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine keeps well-deserved revenues from the developer and serves only to kill the game's chances of further printing and further success.

Is $5 off really worth subjecting all of the people behind a new release to the issues mentioned above? I pray that your answer is "no."



TL,DR: Buying used copies of new releases is bad and you should feel bad if you do it.

SonicPara wrote:Buying used copies of new releases is bad and you should feel bad if you do it.

Why?

We're veering horribly off topic I know, but I just got a PS3 right. I'm very late to the party, I know, and given that the last new game I bought was Hitman: Blood Money back in 2008 I figured it was time to catch up on games. My PS3 came with inFamous 2 and Assassin's Creed 2, but I also bought the other two Assassin's Creed games, both Uncharted games, God of War III, Tekken 6, Arkham Asylum and half a dozen others all 'pre-owned', as JB Hi-Fi calls them.

How does this make me a bad person? Why should I feel bad about this? I buy second hand things off eBay... and I don't feel bad about that - what makes video games any different? What gives them an exception and since when did it become a freakin' moral obligation to buy new games rather than used games? If I rent the game from a video store, finish it, and then return it, is that just as bad (or is it worse given I'm not even buying the game)? What about borrowing it from a friend? Should I be publicly executed for such an act?

dalsiandon wrote:educate us further please on this unfounded parnoia? All entertainment business markets are suffering so for them to be trying to maximize their bottom line by promoting consumers buy new is paranoia how?

Don't get cute with me, and try to avoid lobbing tufts of straw at me. Thanks.

But perhaps 'paranoia' was the wrong word. A better way to put it would be knee-jerk reaction, or a case of sudden onset moral panic-ism. The current hoopla around used games came out of no where, yet the gaming industry is making it out to be this great new threat when it's not. It's just like any moral panic - it takes something and turns it into a moral issue rather than a practical or pragmatic issue, and then we get knee-jerk reactions like online passes and other such nonsense.

SonicPara wrote:used copy of a new release

SonicPara wrote:used copy of a new release

Heck even the part you quoted says it:

SonicPara wrote:Buying used copies of new releases is bad and you should feel bad if you do it.

All of the games you listed are older and while they are not six years old like my example, they are still well past their printing and wholesale window so buying used no longer affects them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why should I feel bad about this? I buy second hand things off eBay... and I don't feel bad about that - what makes video games any different? What gives them an exception and since when did it become a freakin' moral obligation to buy new games rather than used games?

Video games are different because the way they make money if very different from most other commercial products. A new video game makes money for its publisher (and therefore its developer) by selling well in stores, prompting retailers to place more orders with the publisher for more copies of the game. The longer the demand from retailers exists, the more printing and more money for the publisher. Due to the crowded video game market there is only a small window during which further printing is considered by the publisher. To decide they reference the sales of the game and see if retailers are requesting more. If they don't see the signs to prompt more printing, the game is shelved and the success of the title is essentially capped. Buying a used copy of a new release serves to calm demand by keeping new copies of the game on the retailer's shelves. This in turn leads to less and less demand for another run of copies and the inevitable shelving of the game.

Why should you feel bad? Why is it a moral obligation to buy new rather than used? Well in the context of new releases (remember the quoted details) the savings per copy are never more than $5. Gamestop, the leading used-game retailer here in the States, sells a used copy of a new release for $55 USD while the new game costs $60 USD. Considering that buying a used copy of a new release works towards the shelving of said new release, do you really think that the $5 is worth it? Considering that not just the future of the IP you just bought is on the line but all of the jobs of the people that made the IP you are about to enjoy are as well, I don't think it is absurd to feel morally obligated to buy the new copy. Can you really be so upset or annoyed about feeling obligated to purchase a new copy of a new release knowing that people's jobs and IPs are on the line?

Used new games on ebay are just people who bought the game, didn't like it and are now selling it. Taking it off their hands is giving that new game a second life, saving it from the trash/bin. Personally I prefer to buy the games from stores and brand new, because I like the feel and I feel safer when playing them, cause if its glitchy I can get my money back.

However, its completely up to personal choice and opinion whether one buys used or new games.

Back on topic:

There was already a similar thread in the videogames forum, but I'll say it again: the multplayer looks just as good if not better than the singleplayer. Now I'm definately getting this on release day. And thank god for being able to be something else than an Ultramarine. I expect we'll be seeing many pink marines out there.

I'm wondering whether I want to pre-order this game. The only games I really want to get on my PS3 that I don't already own are Arkham City, Uncharted 3 and the upcoming God of War PSP ports. Things like vanishing-into-pink-smoke Chaos Marines and the 'Standard FPS Shotgun' pattern Meltagun kinda turn me off Space Marine.

SonicPara wrote:Why should you feel bad? Why is it a moral obligation to buy new rather than used? Well in the context of new releases (remember the quoted details) the savings per copy are never more than $5. Gamestop, the leading used-game retailer here in the States, sells a used copy of a new release for $55 USD while the new game costs $60 USD.

Ok, I can see the point there. I don't think it makes those who buy them bad people though. I mean, I bought Arkham Asylum for $40, but when it came out it was $110. Granted, it's not a new release, but if we're talking near-same-day-as-release 'pre-owned' copies showing up on shelves for a few dollars less then yes, buying them is a bit pathetic.

The moral obligation thing strikes me as a bit over the top though. They're being needlessly cheap to save a couple of bucks, not baby-eating evil.

Holy crap!

Never has a question been impossible to answer (thanks THQ!), never has a topic veered off topic more than this one! (Yes, hyperbole alert, I know!)

Please debate the merits of new/used/code purchasing etc. in a thread devoted to that topic over in Dakka Discussions.

Please continue to talk about SPACE MARINE multiplayer info here.

Thanks!

Asuron wrote:This argument has been addressed before, used game sales hurts noone, its like a used cars sale or buying a used book.

A used book-- maybe. But certainly NOT like a used car. The manufacturers still make money off of most used cars, because they do their best to make sure that they make money off of parts and tools used to fix said cars

Actually, what THQ is doing is pretty close to car manufacturers in a sense now.

Alpharius wrote:Holy crap!

Never has a question been impossible to answer (thanks THQ!), never has a topic veered off topic more than this one! (Yes, hyperbole alert, I know!)

Please debate the merits of new/used/code purchasing etc. in a thread devoted to that topic over in Dakka Discussions.

Please continue to talk about SPACE MARINE multiplayer info here.

Thanks!

Melissia wrote:

Asuron wrote:This argument has been addressed before, used game sales hurts noone, its like a used cars sale or buying a used book.

A used book-- maybe. But certainly NOT like a used car. The manufacturers still make money off of most used cars, because they do their best to make sure that they make money off of parts and tools used to fix said cars

Actually, what THQ is doing is pretty close to car manufacturers in a sense now.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Melissia wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Nvs wrote:The multiplayer issue with plasma carrying plasma cannons isn't a big deal. As the above poster said, it's not that hard to believe chaos simply looted it from the battlefield.

But some of the other weapons in the game I have an issue with simply because the 40k background is so rich, there shouldn't have been the need to introduce new weapons, hand carrying autocannons, and space marine shrines handing out weaponry.

There are no new weapons being introduced.

Pay more attention, there is one, stated explicitly in at least one video to have been created just for the game.

Spoiler:

Vengeance Grenade Launcher

You are seriously going to argue that there's no grenade launchers in the fluff? Just lol.

Well, there is certainly no such thing as a Vengeance Grenade Launcher.

As for plasma cannons, it makes sense if they are renegade marines, but apparently (in multiplayer anyway) you can play legionary marines, so it doesn't make sense in that context.

Some people will just don't get what game balance is about. It makes no sense to have certain SKINS of multiplayer CSM not able to wield plasma weaponry.

Okay, what kind of coop? Campaign or a special game mode?

chaos0xomega wrote:Its perfectly reasonable and you really don't have any right to complain, especially since buying preowned screws over the publisher.

Yes, all those extra copies of the game using up capacity on servers and stuff! Oh, wait... no...

Hm... how about all those extra copies of games that need patches so therefore tie up resources! Oh, wait, there are still exactly the same number of games in circulation no matter how many are pre-owned so there is no extra strain on the publishers or developers there...

Ohhhh... I see what the problem is! Games developers and publishers and don't get any of the pre-owned pie!

Perhaps if they kept price-as new at a reasonable level and dropped cost-as new prices at a reasonable rate they might tempt more people to go straight in for a new copy... but then why not spend more developing "you need to pay more to actually get the whole game" DLC and put people off from buying the game who might otherwise pick up a pre-owned copy and then spend money on some of the other "value added" DLC (used in the very loosest possible sense as most DLC is pretty much adding content into the game that should have been included at launch anyway).

The curtailing of the pre-owned market directly affects me as I buy most of my games 2nd hand - I have every right to complain if companies start trying to shaft me.

You want to go and start charging used car buyers extra money for things like adding windows to their second hand car?


EDIT: Didn't see debate warnings above as I just replied directly

Sorry

I've skimmed through this thread but didnt see this question or answered anywhere:

I want to order the Special Edition Game (just so I can get a cool Purity Seal) but does that mean I can't get the Emperor's Children Skin for Multi-player because I have to purchase from Best Buy for that skin?

And/or can I customize my own Emperor's Children Armor set with the Multiplayer customize feature?

Preorder on steam is lame. I got a copy of Darksiders which was meh at best and blood ravens skin (also meh imho). I wish I had seen the one that comes with the soundtrack ahead of time :(

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm wondering whether I want to pre-order this game. The only games I really want to get on my PS3 that I don't already own are Arkham City, Uncharted 3 and the upcoming God of War PSP ports. Things like vanishing-into-pink-smoke Chaos Marines and the 'Standard FPS Shotgun' pattern Meltagun kinda turn me off Space Marine.

SonicPara wrote:Why should you feel bad? Why is it a moral obligation to buy new rather than used? Well in the context of new releases (remember the quoted details) the savings per copy are never more than $5. Gamestop, the leading used-game retailer here in the States, sells a used copy of a new release for $55 USD while the new game costs $60 USD.

Ok, I can see the point there. I don't think it makes those who buy them bad people though. I mean, I bought Arkham Asylum for $40, but when it came out it was $110. Granted, it's not a new release, but if we're talking near-same-day-as-release 'pre-owned' copies showing up on shelves for a few dollars less then yes, buying them is a bit pathetic.

The moral obligation thing strikes me as a bit over the top though. They're being needlessly cheap to save a couple of bucks, not baby-eating evil.

Christ, $110? Even with the exchange rate you Aussies are still being screwed... I should start an import business...

SilverMK2 wrote: Words...

Pretty much everything you posted illustrates my point. Running those servers, patching the game, etc. Isn't free, etc. Both PS3 and Xbox360 charge fees to the publisher for downloadable content and patches, even if its free to the end-user. Plus there are the associated maintenance and development costs. While you're not putting any extra strain on the system by buying pre-owned, you're not contributing anything to the developer in exchange for this stuff, in essence you're leeching off of them, much like a parasite. Besides, noone is making you buy the game, if you don't like it, don't buy it.

Anyway, I read some stuff online that the release was pushed back to Sept. 9. Anyone else hear anything bout it? It seems ebgames/gamestop haven't changed anything on their sites...

Sept. 9 is the UK release date.

I always buy my games new, you aren't really supporting the developer if you buy it used, because they don't get any money from the purchase.

Ah, that would make sense then. I went back and double checked and the posters that discussed the release date change were indeed from the UK.

Alpharius wrote:Holy crap!

Never has a question been impossible to answer (thanks THQ!), never has a topic veered off topic more than this one! (Yes, hyperbole alert, I know!)

Please debate the merits of new/used/code purchasing etc. in a thread devoted to that topic over in Dakka Discussions.

Please continue to talk about SPACE MARINE multiplayer info here.

Thanks!

chaos0xomega wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm wondering whether I want to pre-order this game. The only games I really want to get on my PS3 that I don't already own are Arkham City, Uncharted 3 and the upcoming God of War PSP ports. Things like vanishing-into-pink-smoke Chaos Marines and the 'Standard FPS Shotgun' pattern Meltagun kinda turn me off Space Marine.

SonicPara wrote:Why should you feel bad? Why is it a moral obligation to buy new rather than used? Well in the context of new releases (remember the quoted details) the savings per copy are never more than $5. Gamestop, the leading used-game retailer here in the States, sells a used copy of a new release for $55 USD while the new game costs $60 USD.

Ok, I can see the point there. I don't think it makes those who buy them bad people though. I mean, I bought Arkham Asylum for $40, but when it came out it was $110. Granted, it's not a new release, but if we're talking near-same-day-as-release 'pre-owned' copies showing up on shelves for a few dollars less then yes, buying them is a bit pathetic.

The moral obligation thing strikes me as a bit over the top though. They're being needlessly cheap to save a couple of bucks, not baby-eating evil.

Christ, $110? Even with the exchange rate you Aussies are still being screwed... I should start an import business...

SilverMK2 wrote: Words...

Pretty much everything you posted illustrates my point. Running those servers, patching the game, etc. Isn't free, etc. Both PS3 and Xbox360 charge fees to the publisher for downloadable content and patches, even if its free to the end-user. Plus there are the associated maintenance and development costs. While you're not putting any extra strain on the system by buying pre-owned, you're not contributing anything to the developer in exchange for this stuff, in essence you're leeching off of them, much like a parasite. Besides, noone is making you buy the game, if you don't like it, don't buy it.

Anyway, I read some stuff online that the release was pushed back to Sept. 9. Anyone else hear anything bout it? It seems ebgames/gamestop haven't changed anything on their sites...

OK, seriously guys - STAY ON TOPIC!

DX3 wrote:

And/or can I customize my own Emperor's Children Armor set with the Multiplayer customize feature?

DX3 wrote:

DX3 wrote:

And/or can I customize my own Emperor's Children Armor set with the Multiplayer customize feature?

I think he means can he customize his preorder Emperor's Children Armor... which I think the answer to is no. It looks like the preorder armor sets are in a second category from the customizer videos posted earlier in the thread and are take-it-or-leave-it. The menus and screens where you can mix and match are in a separate tree branch from the preorder ones.

Actually warboss, it looks like he's asking if he can make his own Emperors Children armor using the options in the armory. If that is the case, I would have to say probably maybe...

JoeyHeadwounds wrote:Actually warboss, it looks like he's asking if he can make his own Emperors Children armor using the options in the armory. If that is the case, I would have to say probably maybe...

I am pretty sure you can, if I remember correctly int he trailer that you can either have over one million different custimizations, or one billion.

Sidstyler wrote:after the 2007 Chaos codex came out and said that everyone is a recently turned renegade and not a 10,000-year-old veteran still using ancient equipment like previously.

The new codex says that? Really? Where?

DX3 wrote:I've skimmed through this thread but didnt see this question or answered anywhere:

I want to order the Special Edition Game (just so I can get a cool Purity Seal) but does that mean I can't get the Emperor's Children Skin for Multi-player because I have to purchase from Best Buy for that skin?

And/or can I customize my own Emperor's Children Armor set with the Multiplayer customize feature?

Premium edition gives you no skins, sadly.

K, I'll say this one more time, as I have several times in the post in the video games section.

Todd Todderson or whatever the hell his name is said that all the Pre-Order bonuses EXCEPT the Power Sword will be available as downloadable content after the game is released.

So, the Super-Ultrakewl $80 version is still viable to buy even if you would rather have that super k00l Space Wolf/Iron Warrior skin.

Or you could just get the non-collector's edition version at THQ.com, which has the power sword.

scipio.au wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:after the 2007 Chaos codex came out and said that everyone is a recently turned renegade and not a 10,000-year-old veteran still using ancient equipment like previously.

The new codex says that? Really? Where?

The army list.

Melissia wrote:Or you could just get the non-collector's edition version at THQ.com, which has the power sword.

That too.

It's what I did. And I'm now enjoying Darksiders, so yay me.

Two games for the price of one. Whee.

Btw the purity seal int he special edition is magnetic. One of the booth guys said I should put it on my car. My sad sad little car.

Sidstyler wrote:

scipio.au wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:after the 2007 Chaos codex came out and said that everyone is a recently turned renegade and not a 10,000-year-old veteran still using ancient equipment like previously.

The new codex says that? Really? Where?

The army list.

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