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The word "poopsock" gets me every time. A mixture of hilarity and horror.

I do think I should clarify that in my mind, "casual" and "hardcore" have very little to do with skill. It's true that many casual players are bad, and many hardcore players are good, but I've played with excellent casuals and terrible hardcores.

I don't think they should make content easier, or if they should do they should retain some kind of "hard mode". I would rather run content that takes maybe an hour, but is challenging, than the five hour face roll extravaganza that was Molten Core. Christ, I could watch TV and tap the 4 key/spam Decurse for the vast majority of the raid. All I had to do was glance at the screen once in a while to Blizzard down Sons of Flame or run away from the group if I was the living bomb. It certainly wasn't something the "casual" player could do, considering the time commitment, but it sure as hell wasn't difficult.

EDIT: The more I think of it, the more I don't see anything wrong with getting full epics playing one hour a day, as long as the content you get it from is challenging when taking into account you're doing it in a single group, and if it takes an appropriate amount of time. For example, if you have to run (arbitrary number for argument's sake) a raid that takes on average 4 hours to complete a total of 12 times to get all the gear you need from it, then it should take ~48 hours of playing to get these proposed casual epics from casual content. I dunno, sounds reasonable to me. Heck, make it take 50% longer.

Obviously a crappy troll.

RatBot wrote:Hmmm... I can't tell if this is a troll or not. Gonna have to ask my friend, Mister Joe Kerr. What do you think, Joe?



Drat.


EDIT: Whoops, didn't hit quote. Obviously, I am responding to Rockerbikie's post. Sounds like you're mad you don't have to poopsock anymore to enjoy end-game content.

People who can't follow complicated boss fights should not be able to beat the final boss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RatBot wrote:I do think I should clarify that in my mind, "casual" and "hardcore" have very little to do with skill. It's true that many casual players are bad, and many hardcore players are good, but I've played with excellent casuals and terrible hardcores.

I don't think they should make content easier, or if they should do they should retain some kind of "hard mode". I would rather run content that takes maybe an hour, but is challenging, than the five hour face roll extravaganza that was Molten Core. Christ, I could watch TV and tap the 4 key/spam Decurse for the vast majority of the raid. All I had to do was glance at the screen once in a while to Blizzard down Sons of Flame or run away from the group if I was the living bomb. It certainly wasn't something the "casual" player could do, considering the time commitment, but it sure as hell wasn't difficult.

EDIT: The more I think of it, the more I don't see anything wrong with getting full epics playing one hour a day, as long as the content you get it from is challenging when taking into account you're doing it in a single group, and if it takes an appropriate amount of time. For example, if you have to run (arbitrary number for argument's sake) a raid that takes on average 4 hours to complete a total of 12 times to get all the gear you need from it, then it should take ~48 hours of playing to get these proposed casual epics from casual content. I dunno, sounds reasonable to me. Heck, make it take 50% longer.

Burning Crusade was the best of WoW. Seriously, if you can't play the game for a long time then you will proabably should not get full epics. Heroic Dungeons should give green, Raids should give Blue and Heroic raids should give epics.

Heh, reminds me of the sewer runs in city of villains. Some people can't understand the idea of "kill the boss first" (Dr. Vhazilok, the boss of his faction) or "kill the boss last" (the Lost boss, The Prophet) or "don't stand where the ground is glowing, it's a one hit kill" (the Hydra megaboss at the end)...

Amaya wrote:Obviously a crappy troll.

Actually no... Hear me out. If you can't put the time in to be good at the game then you shouldn't be rewarded with the end boss. Your boss doesn't pay you for 45 hours of work if you only work 10.

rockerbikie wrote:

Amaya wrote:Obviously a crappy troll.

Actually no... Hear me out. If you can't put the time in to be good at the game then you shouldn't be rewarded with the end boss. Your boss doesn't pay you for 45 hours of work if you only work 10.

Your boss isn't part of a game.

oops, shouldn't be responding to blatant trolling, just feeds.

MrDwhitey wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

Amaya wrote:Obviously a crappy troll.

Actually no... Hear me out. If you can't put the time in to be good at the game then you shouldn't be rewarded with the end boss. Your boss doesn't pay you for 45 hours of work if you only work 10.

Your boss isn't part of a game.

oops, shouldn't be responding to blatant trolling, just feeds.

I am not trolling. I am responding with my actual opinon. If you think I am trolling still, I probably don't care. If an opinion is an unpopular opinion, the person who states automatically becomes a "troll". The point is that if you don't put the work into getting to the raid and get it by stupid badges. It makes normal raids worthless and only Heroic Raids worth something.

I concur that bosses should be hard.

Hell, pardon me for bringing up CoV again, but I remember the end-game mission way back when, where you went and had to defeat eight superheroes-- each one individually capable of wiping a team-- at the same time.

And we did it, by paragon, we did it! They made it harder and harder, and we villains teamed up, made strategies, and beat those damned capes to a bloody pulp over and over again!

Meanwhile when hte heroes were given a similar mission, which was actually EASIER because they only had to face the supervillains one by one (though the villains were individually tougher, the heroes were very capable of using teamwork and powerful support powers), they complained about how hard it was.

Whiny capes. You don't know how easy you had it!

rockerbikie wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Thats why there are Tiers for Epics.

Casuals don't deserve raids or epics.

Gotta put that time and 'work' into raiding!

Yea, remind me not to ever do that again. Games are supposed to be fun, not work. BC/vanilla raiding was work.

People also probably call you a troll since personal attacks are against the rules. Troll.

I'm not supporting attacks on casuals, just supporting the idea of bosses needing to be hard.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Thats why there are Tiers for Epics.

Casuals don't deserve raids or epics.

Gotta put that time and 'work' into raiding!

Yea, remind me not to ever do that again. Games are supposed to be fun, not work. BC/vanilla raiding was work.

People also probably call you a troll since personal attacks are against the rules. Troll.

I never personally attacked anyone...

Bosses should be challenging.

Facerolling on the keyboard to kill hundreds of easy mobs for five hours before a relatively straight forward boss fight is not challenging, it is just a matter of who has more time rather than who has more skill.

corpsesarefun wrote:Bosses should be challenging.

Facerolling on the keyboard to kill hundreds of easy mobs for five hours before a relatively straight forward boss fight is not challenging, it is just a matter of who has more time rather than who has more skill.

Yessum. The only "skill" required I found when raiding endgame was finding people with good enough gear, an inclination to following vague commands and heaps of spare time. Pretty much all wipes were due to people who didn't follow vague commands and just sat there.

Mages and C'thun come to mind...

Counterspell the fething EYESTALKS

MrDwhitey wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Bosses should be challenging.

Facerolling on the keyboard to kill hundreds of easy mobs for five hours before a relatively straight forward boss fight is not challenging, it is just a matter of who has more time rather than who has more skill.

Yessum. The only "skill" required I found when raiding endgame was finding people with good enough gear, an inclination to following vague commands and heaps of spare time. Pretty much all wipes were due to people who didn't follow vague commands and just sat there.

Mages and C'thun come to mind...

Counterspell the fething EYESTALKS

This seems pretty accurate. Although with this raiding tier in a 10 man if one person screws up, you're probably going to wipe :/, happened many a time.

corpsesarefun wrote:Bosses should be challenging.

Facerolling on the keyboard to kill hundreds of easy mobs for five hours before a relatively straight forward boss fight is not challenging, it is just a matter of who has more time rather than who has more skill.

Though the high end Guilds who have alot of time. When the do a mistake, they wipe and rebuff.

MrDwhitey wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Bosses should be challenging.

Facerolling on the keyboard to kill hundreds of easy mobs for five hours before a relatively straight forward boss fight is not challenging, it is just a matter of who has more time rather than who has more skill.

Yessum. The only "skill" required I found when raiding endgame was finding people with good enough gear, an inclination to following vague commands and heaps of spare time. Pretty much all wipes were due to people who didn't follow vague commands and just sat there.

Heh. In CoV (yes, I know, but it IS my favorite MMO thus far) the issue is finding a team that works well together. Avoiding scrapperlock/brutelock for example (where the aformentioned melee/defense classes lose focus and just melees everything it sees instead of focusing on what the team needs, often aggroing enemies we don't want to aggro yet-- dominatos also have this issue due to their Domination ability, although they're a control/dps class so it's not quite as bad).

Having a good brute (melee/defense, a rage meter that builds with each attack and drains over time) or tank (defense/melee, each attack gathers aggro from mobs around them) and a good defender (support/ranged, endurance cost reduction depending on teammates' health levels) or corrupter (ranged/support, deals increasing damage the lower the enemy's health is) are the only two really necessary ones.

And when I say support, I don't mean "healer". Healing is actually the weakest support type in City of Heroes/Villains... something that is somewhat unique to the game and actually makes it more fun. One of the best support power sets is Energy Field (or shield?), which has no healing at all, but instead dramatically reduces the enemy's chance to hit and reduces damage when they do hit. All classes have access to at least one self-heal, and most of them have multiple anyway...


Class balance is something that many MMOs have a problem with...

Heroic Dungeons should give green, Raids should give Blue and Heroic raids should give epics.

LOL. Just LOL. Now I know you're trolling.

Well if we are talking about this Heroic Dungeons in Cat were made harder because players were expected to know what they were doing but then good players were not able to get their valor caps from pugs. Now I was just thinking now what they _COULD_ do, you could have like, entry into heroic pugs based on skill. Like if you are good you get good players. Unfortunately you probably get into problems with queue times based on lack of skilled healers etc.

In Panda-Land they are going back to EZPZ heroics so people can get their valor for their time spent playing, which I suppose is "babysitting the casuals".

The answer of course, is not to run pugs at all and make everything work through a guild system where people have to be on, and people have to work together.

But anyway. WoW is going back to Wrath-difficulty Heroic Dungeons in Panda-Land. Well we are on page 10 have we talked about this yet.

As far as the pug raid finders are concerned they seem like almost an experiment more than "reward the losers with no guild." The best play, and the best MMO experience will always come from guilds. Besides lots of players might want to just run their alts for giggles.

RatBot wrote:

Heroic Dungeons should give green, Raids should give Blue and Heroic raids should give epics.

Oh my god, you believe in hard work and item colour based on skill in raids. He believes in an unpopular opinion, he must be trolling.

Fixed it for you. If I decided to troll you, the posts would have poor grammar to begin with.

Lol, World of Warcrafts regin is still going to happen. Its always going to be the number one online game until blizz says where done.

To me it's like miniature games.

In order to have as wide a customer base as possible, the game
has to support a variety of players.

Driving off either the raiders or the casuals kind of limits your
customer base.

I remember when we casuals/pveplayers were called Carebears
in DAoC. Those were fun days.

They've been called that in WoW as well.

It's really annoying when they do that. I've had guild/clan/whatever members who simply didn't have the time to dedicate multiple hours in a day to this sort of thing. Insulting them just because they have to focus on class to better their lives is just childish...

Casual players are fine. Let them play at their own pace, they don't have to match you...

Melissia wrote:It's really annoying when they do that. I've had guild/clan/whatever members who simply didn't have the time to dedicate multiple hours in a day to this sort of thing. Insulting them just because they have to focus on class to better their lives is just childish...

Casual players are fine. Let them play at their own pace, they don't have to match you...

I never really played casually, but the only time they annoyed me is they got into my heroics and sucked.

How... HOW DARE YOU insinuate your guild members may have BETTER THINGS TO DO than RAID!

Get out, just get out!

Amaya wrote:

Melissia wrote:It's really annoying when they do that. I've had guild/clan/whatever members who simply didn't have the time to dedicate multiple hours in a day to this sort of thing. Insulting them just because they have to focus on class to better their lives is just childish...

Casual players are fine. Let them play at their own pace, they don't have to match you...

I never really played casually, but the only time they annoyed me is they got into my heroics and sucked.

You can be casual and be good

I'd play only during raiding and MAYBE 2-4 hours outside of raiding and did just fine... that being said I'm no Re-Re and I know how to play MMO's and "GET" roles.

Most of my guilds raiding recruits were "casuals" we met in heroics who were very good.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Thats why there are Tiers for Epics.

Casuals don't deserve raids or epics.

Gotta put that time and 'work' into raiding!

Yea, remind me not to ever do that again. Games are supposed to be fun, not work. BC/vanilla raiding was work.

People also probably call you a troll since personal attacks are against the rules. Troll.

The only work was getting and coordinating 40 people and to be honest that was worth it to me.
I liked working with large groups of people to get things done and I liked the unity and teamwork that arose from it.

I quit towards toward the end of BC because I was getting bored and it was clear it was becoming easier. My brother played halfway through WOTLK and he said it was incredibly easy to get epics. A friend who currently plays it told me they now have PUG raid groups that can get through the high end stuff in just a few hours. It seems like a downward decline of difficulty to me. There seems to be no coordination required any more for this stuff. It seems you don't have to work at strategies to win the raids any more, its just show up with a group of random's and you'll be given your treat with the minimum of effort.

I was never into PvP, so raiding mattered to me and I liked the challenge. I never actually expected they would put in 10 man groups for Arthas. I thought it would require 40 cream of crop players to take him down when they did eventually implement him. Kinda disappointing to me I guess.

Personally, I'm really dissapointed that it's Pandas coming in to wow.

Yes, I understand Pandas or "pandaren" go back far in wow lore, but... does that make me have to like it?

THo, im pretty excited about the new mechanincs and such that is being brought it, like pve scenerios.