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Icemyn wrote:

Your parenthesized statement is fluff, so not worth mentioning. RP counters are associated with the unit EL counters are not.

Funny - don't you have to stand back up with the unit?

No you absolutely do but if you read the codex, which at this point Im curious if you and Berzerker have, the EL counters are placed where the model fell and are not moved with the unit. Its only after the roll is successful that they rejoin the unit.

I have a few times, but I don't have ready access to it.
The EL counters not moving does not mean that they are not a part of the unit.

@rigeld2 - Your first point on removing from existence = irreparable is an implication not a fact.

That's interesting - if something does not exist, how do you act on it at all - let alone take action to repair it?

rigeld2 wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:Wooo, chill there dude. Your nerd rage is showing. I'm not insulting you.

Things like "How has this thread been going this long?!" imply that you think you know something that hasn't been presented, and that obviously anyone who doesn't know this little gem is deficient in some manner.
If it wasn't intended as an insult, then nevermind.

But, isn't EL a subset rule of RP. And it says remove all token "ALL" tokens when the unit fails moral. That is why its says next to every model with the EL rule, Reanimation Protocal, Everliving.

It's like this is your first post in YMDC...

All tokens means all wound tokens, a pinned/GTG marker, whatever else I represent a token with...

Or, it means - by context of the rule - all RP tokens.

If EL isn't a subset of RP why would EL say something to the effect of "follow the rules for RP except for..."?

There really was a whole thread about this. You should look for it.

Then why are you guys having this argument, if there is another thread? The whole argument that EL is allowed after SA is moot if EL is the same as RP and just a slightly modified rule that doesn't say ANYWHERE that it's token is not removed after falling back.

RP = Base Class
EL = Inherits its properities from from RP.

If RP says, all tokens are removed after falling back (which occurs at the same time as SA) Then
If EL does not say, "remains after falling back (which occurs at the same time as SA) then
all tokens, including EL, are removed.

ZombieJoe wrote:Then why are you guys having this argument, if there is another thread? The whole argument that EL is allowed after SA is moot if EL is the same as RP and just a slightly modified rule that doesn't say ANYWHERE that it's token is not removed after falling back.

Because the other thread determined that EL tokens stay after falling back. You're welcome to find it, read the arguments, and start a new thread if you disagree.

Ok rather than to just argue about random things which are not pertinent to the debate.
Lets just focus only on the things that we actually disagree on.

1) If a model, joined to a unit, with EL is downed during combat before SA we place an EL counter where the model fell.

2) The unit that the EL counter is associated with fails its leadership and is run down and subject to SA.

3) SA states that nothing can save the unit from being destroyed at this stage So fully resolve the destruction of the unit removing the models from play. Note SA never allows you to remove the EL Token.

4) At the end of the phase SA has been fully resolved and all other combats have been resolved you still have an EL Token which needs to make a roll. My opinion is that since you are not rolling "at the stage" SA takes place you can now save/rescue the unit as it is a different phase.

This is all I care to argue going forward.

Icemyn wrote:
3) SA states that nothing can save the unit from being destroyed at this stage So fully resolve the destruction of the unit removing the models from play. Note SA never allows you to remove the EL Token.

4) At the end of the phase SA has been fully resolved and all other combats have been resolved you still have an EL Token which needs to make a roll. My opinion is that since you are not rolling "at the stage" SA takes place you can now save/rescue the unit as it is a different phase.

This is all I care to argue going forward.

How are you defining "at this stage". The answer will dictate how to present an argument.

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
3) SA states that nothing can save the unit from being destroyed at this stage So fully resolve the destruction of the unit removing the models from play. Note SA never allows you to remove the EL Token.

4) At the end of the phase SA has been fully resolved and all other combats have been resolved you still have an EL Token which needs to make a roll. My opinion is that since you are not rolling "at the stage" SA takes place you can now save/rescue the unit as it is a different phase.

This is all I care to argue going forward.

How are you defining "at this stage". The answer will dictate how to present an argument.

Apologies, I thought I mentioned this in a previous post, but the literal definition.
Or more concisely "at this moment" or at the point at which SA is being resolved.
Hopefully, that makes sense, if not I will rephrase.

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
3) SA states that nothing can save the unit from being destroyed at this stage So fully resolve the destruction of the unit removing the models from play. Note SA never allows you to remove the EL Token.

4) At the end of the phase SA has been fully resolved and all other combats have been resolved you still have an EL Token which needs to make a roll. My opinion is that since you are not rolling "at the stage" SA takes place you can now save/rescue the unit as it is a different phase.

This is all I care to argue going forward.

How are you defining "at this stage". The answer will dictate how to present an argument.

Apologies, I thought I mentioned this in a previous post, but the literal definition.
Or more concisely "at this moment" or at the point at which SA is being resolved.
Hopefully, that makes sense, if not I will rephrase.

Do you have context or some other reason to define it that way?

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
3) SA states that nothing can save the unit from being destroyed at this stage So fully resolve the destruction of the unit removing the models from play. Note SA never allows you to remove the EL Token.

4) At the end of the phase SA has been fully resolved and all other combats have been resolved you still have an EL Token which needs to make a roll. My opinion is that since you are not rolling "at the stage" SA takes place you can now save/rescue the unit as it is a different phase.

This is all I care to argue going forward.

How are you defining "at this stage". The answer will dictate how to present an argument.

Apologies, I thought I mentioned this in a previous post, but the literal definition.
Or more concisely "at this moment" or at the point at which SA is being resolved.
Hopefully, that makes sense, if not I will rephrase.

Do you have context or some other reason to define it that way?

It is the literal definition, and because it wasn't followed with a /sarcasm I just assume that they mean what they write and no more, thus RAW.

Icemyn wrote:It is the literal definition, and because it wasn't followed with a /sarcasm I just assume that they mean what they write and no more, thus RAW.

Literally, there is no reason to think it stops being true.

It does not state that nothing could have saved them.

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Do you have context or some other reason to define it that way?

It is the literal definition, and because it wasn't followed with a /sarcasm I just assume that they mean what they write and no more, thus RAW.

a) we've already decided that following literal definitions can lead to insanity.
b) "at this stage" can also mean "from now on." Hence why I asked why you chose that definition. It's not spelled out in any literal sense in the rules.

Destroyed is the hurdle you have to get over

The unit is destroyed. It has ended, with no ability to come back.

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Do you have context or some other reason to define it that way?

It is the literal definition, and because it wasn't followed with a /sarcasm I just assume that they mean what they write and no more, thus RAW.

a) we've already decided that following literal definitions can lead to insanity.
b) "at this stage" can also mean "from now on." Hence why I asked why you chose that definition. It's not spelled out in any literal sense in the rules.

A) I thought we decided that only using a rulebook for definitions can lead to insanity
B) I think we agree that first and foremost we use a literal definition and should that fail us we move to a second idiomatic definition that you have applied. Though when using your idiomatic definition it is usually the start of a statement not the end. IE "At this stage the game was in my favor"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Destroyed is the hurdle you have to get over

The unit is destroyed. It has ended, with no ability to come back.

QFT, this is honestly the issue that is most compelling.

And despite my arguments with Berzerker and Rigeld2 this seems to be the
hurdle that I am having the hardest time jumping.

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Do you have context or some other reason to define it that way?

It is the literal definition, and because it wasn't followed with a /sarcasm I just assume that they mean what they write and no more, thus RAW.

a) we've already decided that following literal definitions can lead to insanity.
b) "at this stage" can also mean "from now on." Hence why I asked why you chose that definition. It's not spelled out in any literal sense in the rules.

A) I thought we decided that only using a rulebook for definitions can lead to insanity
B) I think we agree that first and foremost we use a literal definition and should that fail us we move to a second idiomatic definition that you have applied. Though when using your idiomatic definition it is usually the start of a statement not the end. IE "At this stage the game was in my favor"

So we agree to disagree on this. Because I don't agree that your definition is correct. Neither of us have a rules basis for it, and I don't think that your definition is the correct literal one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Destroyed is the hurdle you have to get over

The unit is destroyed. It has ended, with no ability to come back.

QFT, this is honestly the issue that is most compelling.

And despite my arguments with Berzerker and Rigeld2 this seems to be the
hurdle that I am having the hardest time jumping.

I didn't address it because you asked me not to, but it'd be really hard to repair something that doesn't exist

rigeld2 wrote:
I didn't address it because you asked me not to, but it'd be really hard to repair something that doesn't exist

Lol, na dude I mentioned in my bullet points I think it was bullet 3, I figured you were going to ambush me with it again.
I had half a mind to type some hippy bs about moving from phases of existence or some crap lol.
Good thing you didn't bring me to it, may have been embarrassing.

@Berzerker

Sry I was away from a computer for a while... the phrasing is in fact "that was removed as a casualty"

Specifically the following:

"If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols. If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound within 3" of the counter."

Note that this denies it getting up if the unit it is getting up to no longer exists, but the FAQ clarifies this to allow it with:

"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

Anyway, I'm pretty sure we're agreed on most points here. Specifically that SA denies EL through the use of the phrasing "destroy" and that were destroy made to be equal to removed as a casualty than EL would be allowed to roll.

I think the only point of contention we have at this point is whether or not the necron FAQ includes units that were wiped out via SA or not. On that note, I believe it to really be a matter of opinion.

Anyway, I'm out of this thread for fear of zombie horses...

It doesnt, because it does not SPECIFICALLY mention SA. ANd only SPECIFICALLY mentioning you survive SA lets you survive SA

Wow, I take a quick 13 hour nap and this is what I wake up to? Ok, here we go...

Myth wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:I am leaning strongly towards NO. EL does not specify that it brings a model back from destroyed. The whole unit is destroyed in a SA. The dead model with EL is still part of the unit (not on the table, but still part of the unit) Dying doesn't remove you from a unit, otherwise Ghost Ark's Repair Barge ability would never work.

Ghost Arks do not, technically, bring back dead models. They add entirely new necron models, with the restriction that they can't increase a unit's size to more than it started the game. I'm not necessarily sure which side of the argument I actually am on, but either way, I don't think Ghost Ark's ability is directly relevant.

The ghost ark example is relevant. It helps show that a dead member of a unit is still counted as part of the unit for some purposes. Here, specifically, for the maximum number of warriors that can come back.

copper.talos wrote:Since most probably my english will fail me one more time if things get too complicated, I will give an example on my point of view in this.
An Overlord and a Royal Court of 5 lords gets in cc. The overlord and 2 lords die of wounds. At that point they are removed from play as a casualty and each leaves an EL counter behind.
Then the rest of the lords get caught in sweeping advance. At this stage the only unit that is affected by SA is the Royal Court. The Overlord is not part of the RC anymore as he has been removed from play. The lords get destroyed and each leaves a EL counter behind.
At the end of the cc phase you have 6 EL rolls to make. The 5 EL rolls from the lords are forfeit because if they were to be successful they would reconstitute the Royal Court which was affected by SA. The EL roll for the overlord can be attempted because if it is successful then the overlord can return to play as a single model unit that was never affected by SA.

I'm terrified to argue on the same side as copper again so soon, but he brings up a question that I asked earlier, am interested in, and never got a satisfactory answer to.
There is a new point to consider. He didn't make it very clear, maybe I only inferred it because I have been thinking about this. When the IC with EL dies, is it still part of the unit it had joined? The rules under ever living are not clear on this point IMO, but they are clear on the IC being given the choice to join either of two units it is placed w/i coherency of. And this is likely either the shooting or assault phase. That is an unusual time to join as an IC. To me, this brings up the possibility that the dead IC with EL is no longer part of the unit it had joined. If so, when the warrior (or whatever) unit is swept, it would not nescesarily destroy the IC or prevent EL. Granted, they could still move to cover the 3", but that is a player's choice.

WanderingFox wrote:I did not mean the status 'removed from play'
I meant the action of removing the model from play. Destroyed isn't actually defined ANYWHERE, which is why this argument is possible.

I agree that destroyed is defined poorly in the 5th BRB, and only by context.
from page 5 of this thread, reposting for clarity.

foolishmortal wrote:

Happyjew wrote: Destroyed. As in no longer a playable unit for the game.

I agree that that is often the case for the context of "destroyed" in the BRB, "weapon destroyed" being the only major exception, and this probably falls under the category of "Unless otherwise specified [by a] special rule" as the rules that repair destroyed weapons are fairly specific and special.

I just don't see it defined that way in the BRB.
Lots of fluff support...
"for them the battle is over"
"We assume that the already demoralized foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing"
"scatters and deserts the battle"
That's why I was asking if there was some other ruling people were thinking of that I had missed.

If I had to define "destroyed" based on BRB context, I would say something like...
"Removed from the game as a result of an unspecified combination of death, crippling injury, equipment damage, demoralization, and general no-longer-usefulness. No ability may bring something destroyed back to game unless it is explicit stated that it works on destroyed things" That would clarify a lot.

Icemyn wrote:Ok rather than to just argue about random things which are not pertinent to the debate.
Lets just focus only on the things that we actually disagree on.

1) If a model, joined to a unit, with EL is downed during combat before SA we place an EL counter where the model fell.

2) The unit that the EL counter is associated with fails its leadership and is run down and subject to SA.

3) SA states that nothing can save the unit from being destroyed at this stage So fully resolve the destruction of the unit removing the models from play. Note SA never allows you to remove the EL Token.

4) At the end of the phase SA has been fully resolved and all other combats have been resolved you still have an EL Token which needs to make a roll. My opinion is that since you are not rolling "at the stage" SA takes place you can now save/rescue the unit as it is a different phase.

This is all I care to argue going forward.

I agree with Icemyn about this being a good place to re-focus the discussion.

I believe we also have a precedent here. Take a look at the DE FAQ, page 2, 5th question down on the left.

DE only get their pain tokens after they destroy a unit, but in the case of Necrons they still have a chance to come back.

If we followed the example of SA then clearly rules have been broken and that DE unit should give back their pain token since they didn't technically destroy that unit...but they don't.

Lukus83 wrote:I believe we also have a precedent here. Take a look at the DE FAQ, page 2, 5th question down on the left.

DE only get their pain tokens after they destroy a unit, but in the case of Necrons they still have a chance to come back.

If we followed the example of SA then clearly rules have been broken and that DE unit should give back their pain token since they didn't technically destroy that unit...but they don't.

How would you figure that the DE didn't "technically" destroy the unit.
DE attack an enemy unit in cc, the enemy unit loses the assault, they fail their morale check, they fall back and are caught in a sweeping advance and destroyed.
If the DE unit didn't kill the enemy unit, who did?

What that FAQ said was that if the DE attack a unit, and there are models waiting to make a WBB roll, then the DE unit doesn't get the pain token until after the unit is destroyed.

Say a DE unit attacks an overlord. The overlord goes down in the combat and an EL counter is placed. Does the DE get a pain token? Not yet. At the end of that phase the overlord attempts to come back. If it fails its EL roll, it is destroyed and the DE unit then gets its pain token.

That FAQ doesn't have anything specifically to do with SA, but does have to do with when the pain token is generated.

Hmmm, I had thought that I had read somewhere a DE unit gets a pain token the first time they destroy a unit, but no more if resurrection rolls were made and they destroy it again. Swear I read that somewhere...

Ever living is only for the ic joining the unit and so can only resurrect himself. De get a pain token since when the unit is destroyed they can never reanimate. The biggest debate is ever living model be considered a troops still an extra kp since the unit is gone and can it generate extra kill " tokens"

Defeatmyarmy wrote: Ever living is only for the ic joining the unit and so can only resurrect himself.

Crypteks and Lords are not ICs and yet have everliving.

Before the necron FAQ there was a question, if a whole unit is all killed, at the end do EL models get to roll to come back? There are three ways a unit can be wiped out. During shooting, from wounds in combat, and from sweeping advance. "Wiped out" includes all three.

The FAQ is very clear. Models with EL always get to come back.

Finally, if EL wasn't intended to always let a model a chance to return it wouldn't be called Ever-Living. It would be called Mostly-Ever-Living-Except-For-Sweeping-Advance.

Nemesor Dave wrote: Before the necron FAQ there was a question, if a whole unit is all killed, at the end do EL models get to roll to come back? There are three ways a unit can be wiped out. During shooting, from wounds in combat, and from sweeping advance. "Wiped out" includes all three.

SA doesn't say the unit is "wiped out", it says "The unit is destroyed".

Nemesor Dave wrote:The FAQ is very clear. Models with EL always get to come back.

The FAQ clearifies that if a unit with RP is wiped out, the character with EL can attempt to come back. Prior to the FAQ, the rules indicated that if the unit was wiped out, the character was wiped out as well.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Finally, if EL wasn't intended to always let a model a chance to return it wouldn't be called Ever-Living. It would be called Mostly-Ever-Living-Except-For-Sweeping-Advance.

What EL is called isn't important. What is important is that it would need to specifically state that a character with EL can roll even if it or its unit is caught by a sweeping advance.

It doesn't say that. So the special rule of EL or RP can't save the unit or character from a sweeping advance.

kirsanth wrote:
Similar issue:
I say 9 is odd.
You say 9 is 3 squared.

Did you disagree with me?
Did you agree?

Even better: I say that 9 is a movie.

time wizard wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote: Before the necron FAQ there was a question, if a whole unit is all killed, at the end do EL models get to roll to come back? There are three ways a unit can be wiped out. During shooting, from wounds in combat, and from sweeping advance. "Wiped out" includes all three.

SA doesn't say the unit is "wiped out", it says "The unit is destroyed".

A unit that is wiped out has been destroyed. A unit that was destroyed has been wiped out. They both mean exactly the same thing.

time wizard wrote:
Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Finally, if EL wasn't intended to always let a model a chance to return it wouldn't be called Ever-Living. It would be called Mostly-Ever-Living-Except-For-Sweeping-Advance.

What EL is called isn't important. What is important is that it would need to specifically state that a character with EL can roll even if it or its unit is caught by a sweeping advance.

It doesn't say that. So the special rule of EL or RP can't save the unit or character from a sweeping advance.

EL doesn't need to specify anything about SA because the model is destroyed and a EL token is placed. The unit is destroyed completely and wiped out, the battle continues and other combats are fought. The token is still in the game and long after the effects of SA are gone, at the end of phase the model may be brought back by the token.

SA does not remove EL tokens.

Nemesor Dave wrote:SA does not remove EL tokens.

10 pages and we are still right where we started from.

Okay, you assert that SA does not remove EL tokens.

Fine.

Quote me the part of the EL rule that says the EL counter is not removed when the unit is caught by a sweeping advance.

Do that, and I'll be quiet.

"A unit that is wiped out has been destroyed. A unit that was destroyed has been wiped out. They both mean exactly the same thing. "

WRONG. Basic logical fallacy.

Show me EXPLICIT permission to SAVe the unit from being destroyed within the EL rule, What, you cannot? Oh damn, that would be EXACTLY THE SAME FAILED ARGUMENT we've had for the last 10 pages

EL
CANNOT
SAVE
YOU
FROM
SWEEPING
ADVANCE

time wizard wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:SA does not remove EL tokens.

10 pages and we are still right where we started from.

Okay, you assert that SA does not remove EL tokens.

Fine.

Quote me the part of the EL rule that says the EL counter is not removed when the unit is caught by a sweeping advance.

Do that, and I'll be quiet.

From the Necron codex EL section: "Instead place a Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play."

SA removes a model from play. When that happens this says to place a counter. I think everyone agrees, RP counters are removed when the unit is destroyed, but EL counters still stay, or else EL would never work at all.

"Removed from play" is as strong a wording as you can get. So... 1. SA 2. Remove model from play. 3. Place a EL counter. (as model has been destroyed, unit has been wiped out) 4. End of phase roll to bring model back.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"A unit that is wiped out has been destroyed. A unit that was destroyed has been wiped out. They both mean exactly the same thing. "

WRONG. Basic logical fallacy.

Show me EXPLICIT permission to SAVe the unit from being destroyed within the EL rule, What, you cannot? Oh damn, that would be EXACTLY THE SAME FAILED ARGUMENT we've had for the last 10 pages

EL
CANNOT
SAVE
YOU
FROM
SWEEPING
ADVANCE

A model can be destroyed and saved, therefore not destroyed. A model can also be destroyed and later brought back and therefor destroyed, not saved and then brought back.

SA prevents the former. SA does not prevent the latter.

EL does not save the model from being destroyed! It lets the model be removed from play by the exact wording of EL. The model is "destroyed" and removed from play according to the EL rules. Then a counter is placed and the model is brought back. It has not been saved.

The core of this debate I think is the timing. You're saying if the model ever comes back, it has been saved. I'm saying that SA destroys the model. It is NOT saved. Its removed from play (by the exact necron codex EL wording) and later brought back by the EL rule without any contradiction of SA rules.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
SA removes a model from play.

SA does not remove a model from play.

Please read or re-read the rule on page 40.

"The falling back unit is destroyed."

No models are removed, no casualties are caused, no saves are taken, no special rules are invoked, "Unless otherwise specified..."

The unit is destroyed. Nowhere does the term sweeping advance appear in either the Reanimation Protocol or Ever-Living Necron Special Rules.

Please already.