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time wizard wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
SA removes a model from play.

SA does not remove a model from play.

Please read or re-read the rule on page 40.

"The falling back unit is destroyed."

No models are removed, no casualties are caused, no saves are taken, no special rules are invoked, "Unless otherwise specified..."

The unit is destroyed. Nowhere does the term sweeping advance appear in either the Reanimation Protocol or Ever-Living Necron Special Rules.

Please already.

Unless you read this as meaning you smash your model, "destroyed" means "removed from play". I get the whole "removed as a casualty" vs "removed from play" debate, but if you're going to say a "destroyed unit" is not "removed from play" then that only leaves a literal interpretation and you'll be needing some glue.

When, oh when, will Matt Ward learn. I don't care if he wrote the codex or not, as far as I'm concerned he is everything wrong with WH40K.

Actually no, he's not. Phil "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly is.

RP has exactly the same trigger as WBB

WBB has NEVER EVER allowed you to return from SA. Ever. Neither does RP.

The main reason? EL deosnt say it works against Sweeping Advance. ANd guess what Nemesor Dave (going to guess slight bias here)? That means it does work

You have no rules anywhere that allow you to return from Sweeping Advance, because RP / EL do not *****SPECIFY***** that they work against SA

So, before you post again: find a rule saying RP / EL work against SA, because otherwise they do not.

Given this is a literal impossibility, just dont try posting a counter argument - there isnt one

Nemesor Dave wrote:Unless you read this as meaning you smash your model, "destroyed" means "removed from play". I get the whole "removed as a casualty" vs "removed from play" debate, but if you're going to say a "destroyed unit" is not "removed from play" then that only leaves a literal interpretation and you'll be needing some glue.

RFP != RFPaaC != Destroyed != vanished into the Warp, etc.

Based on page 91, the Annihilation section that awards 1 KP for every destroyed unit, we know that destroyed means that the unit is no longer part of the game. This has nothing to do with physically destroying the models. Please try another strawman.

I agree that SA destroys the swept unit.
I agree that the RP/EL rules do not contain sufficient language to come back from being destroyed.

I would like the issue of ICs joined to a unit addressed. Is a dead IC still part of the unit they had joined? Please re-read EL on p29 before you answer.

It has already been addressed. They are a normal member of the unit, as per page 48 / 49, and nothing says they are NOT a member of the unit

For example if you start claiming an IC isnt part of a unit if he dies, the corrolary - that he is no longer part of a unit that died - is also claimed as true. Which is false.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It has already been addressed. They are a normal member of the unit, as per page 48 / 49, and nothing says they are NOT a member of the unit

As I asked, please re-read the Everliving Rule on page 29 of the new necron codex.

edit for clarity and those without the codex:
It talks about the procedure for placing a returning model with EL, giving several, but sadly not all contingent possibilities. One of which is "if the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendl units that it is able to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice)."

to me, this implies that a dead IC might not still be part of the unit they had joined, especially if the unit they had join is no longer on the table. That was the precedent with Lord Commissars and returning Conscripts squads, yes?

foolishmortal wrote:As I asked, please re-read the Everliving Rule on page 29 of the new necron codex.

edit for clarity and those without the codex:
It talks about the procedure for placing a returning model with EL, giving several, but sadly not all contingent possibilities. One of which is "if the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendl units that it is able to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice)."

to me, this implies that a dead IC might not still be part of the unit they had joined, especially if the unit they had join is no longer on the table. That was the precedent with Lord Commissars and returning Conscripts squads, yes?

Re-read the first half of that same paragraph.

It must be placed in coherency with the unit it was a part of when removed as a casualty.

Yes, and if that unit is no longer on the table?

edit : more importantly, does that 1st part mean "placed back in coherency with the unit it had joined, because it is still a part of it" or "placed back in coherency with the unit it had joined and re-joins it"?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually no, he's not. Phil "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly is.

RP has exactly the same trigger as WBB

WBB has NEVER EVER allowed you to return from SA. Ever. Neither does RP.

WBB didn't use tokens and does not have anything to do with EL.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The main reason? EL deosnt say it works against Sweeping Advance. ANd guess what Nemesor Dave (going to guess slight bias here)? That means it does work

You have no rules anywhere that allow you to return from Sweeping Advance, because RP / EL do not *****SPECIFY***** that they work against SA

This is not an issue. SA destroys the unit. EL does not "save" the unit or prevent its destruction at all. Read carefully, that is not what I am saying.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, before you post again: find a rule saying RP / EL work against SA, because otherwise they do not.

Given this is a literal impossibility, just dont try posting a counter argument - there isnt one

Show me the rule that says SA removes EL counters.
Show me the rule that says SA prevents a EL counter from being placed.
You cannot find it because it doesn't exist.

SA destroys the model. An EL counter is placed. The effect of SA is resolved and done! At the end of the phase the EL counter that remains brings the model back.

The FAQ supports this but uses the phrase "wiped out". If every model of a unit is destroyed by SA then the unit has been "wiped out". Place an EL counter. SA is done now, it did it's job. At the end of the phase roll for EL.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

foolishmortal wrote:Yes, and if that unit is no longer on the table?

edit : more importantly, does that 1st part mean "placed back in coherency with the unit it had joined, because it is still a part of it" or "placed back in coherency with the unit it had joined and re-joins it"?

This has been cleared up by the FAQ and is a separate issue from the sweeping advance issue. The wording implies (to me and others) that if the unit is destroyed, then the IC must be placed in coherency, which it can't be so the IC should be destroyed too. Now the FAQ clarifies that you still place an EL counter (and get a roll to come back) if the unit is no longer on the board.

Nemesor Dave wrote:This has been cleared up by the FAQ and is a separate issue from the sweeping advance issue. The wording implies (to me and others) that if the unit is destroyed, then the IC must be placed in coherency, which it can't be so the IC should be destroyed too. Now the FAQ clarifies that you still place an EL counter (and get a roll to come back) if the unit is no longer on the board.

I agree that it is a separate issue. I think we disagree about the distinction between a unit being wiped out and a unit being destroyed. I have cited context and precedents for 5th ed BRB destroyed only being reversible by abilities that specifically state they reverse or counteract destruction. Some disagree with me on this, but I have not yet seen a persuasive argument or new information on the topic. That portion of the discussion seems to have reached an impasse. You can tell it's an impasse because people are not bringing up new information or arguments, but instead are insulting each other or using punctuation in new and creative ways.

I believe my question raises a new and appropriate point on the topic. I would be interested in hearing new and appropriate thoughts.

If the ever living counter is down before the sweeping advance is made, you get the roll.

To suggest otherwise is some creative rules reading, especially since:

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

I can't say whether or not they get the roll if they go down to a SA. I'll need to think about that a bit more.

And if you were to pass the roll, then the unit has not been removed immediately with no special rule or save stopping it (unless specified).

But the EL roll happens after the fact. Add to that counters are not part of a unit and it is perfectly acceptable to have unit/model come back due to EL.

Yeah, the model with EL would come back within 3" of the marker just like it says to do in the EL rules.

I genuinely don't understand the confusion.

Because, if the model with EL comes back then you have saved the unit, which you cannot do unless specifically allowed by a special rule.

Seriously. Read the entire thread. Every time someone new comes in we spend 2-3 pages covers literally the exact same points.

Lukus83 wrote:But the EL roll happens after the fact. Add to that counters are not part of a unit and it is perfectly acceptable to have unit/model come back due to EL.

The counter, I believe, has to be apart of the unit. Otherwise, some wargear (the Resurrection Orb in particular) wouldn't work for the unit after the model carrying it has been replaced by a counter. The FAQ tells us that it does, so it must still be a part of the unit.

If it is still a part of the unit, and the unit is destroyed, it too must be destroyed. Otherwise, a special rule, which Ever-Living is, would save or rescue the unit. Which, according to Sweeping Advance, can't happen.

Same situation happens to the unit if when falling back it makes contact with the table edge. Would you say Ever-Living stops that as well?

As far as I understand it, the impasse is due to a disagreement about Q1) the relative permanence of unit destruction, and Q2) whether or not removing a model from play, then returning the model to play at a later time constitutes "saving" or "rescuing" it.

I am leaning towards A1) pretty darn permanent, unless specifically overridden by a rule that specifically overrides it, and A2) Yes

There hasn't been much progress or constructive input on these issues recently, hence my desire to address the IC / EL model joined to a another unit issue. I'm going to start a more specific thread, but I'll keep checking back.

As to destroyed being the same thing as wiped out

Falling back and reaching your table edge means the unit is destroyed. EL won't rescue you here

Falling back and being trapped means the unit is destroyed. EL won't save you from that.

A 1-2 on the mishap table means the unit is destroyed. EL won't save you from that.

Seriously, EL is not a never-die power. Get over it.

Happyjew wrote:Because, if the model with EL comes back then you have saved the unit, which you cannot do unless specifically allowed by a special rule.

No you haven't. You've followed the rules for EL as they are written, is all.

Monster Rain wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Because, if the model with EL comes back then you have saved the unit, which you cannot do unless specifically allowed by a special rule.

No you haven't. You've followed the rules for EL as they are written, is all.

So EL can bring you back off the board edge, back from being trapped, back from a mishap...

Methinks you might be reading more into EL than it actually does.

It would seem that way, since you're inventing positions that I've taken to argue against.

We are talking about an EL token being on the table already and whether or not you get the the roll after the rest of the unit has gone away. The FAQ says that you do.

Monster Rain wrote:It would seem that way, since you're inventing positions that I've taken to argue against.

We are talking about an EL token being on the table already and whether or not you get the the roll after the rest of the unit has gone away. The FAQ says that you do.

And literally every situation I mentioned could happen with a el token on the table from the unit.
The FAQ does not say you can come back from destroyed. It says you can come back from being wiped out. There's a difference.
That, or you're asserting you can EL in scenarios I've outlined. You pick.

You don't get to frame the debate, buddy.

I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get to frame the debate, buddy.

I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

I was mistaken - I was thinking something with a veiltek but that wouldnt work.
And you asserted that destroyed is the same thing as wiped out. I'm debating that statement.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

Maybe this is conclusive proof that I'm sheerly morbid, but this is the sort of question I love. How about...

Deathmarks with 2 crypteks veil, scatter onto impassable terrain, the mishap roll comes up opponent's choice, he puts them on difficult area terrain (which is automatically dangerous for DS) the crypteks roll two one's on their dangerous terrain test. No armor or cover saves, hence you get 2 EL tokens from DS mishap

foolishmortal wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

Maybe this is conclusive proof that I'm sheerly morbid, but this is the sort of question I love. How about...

Deathmarks with 2 crypteks veil, scatter onto impassable terrain, the mishap roll comes up opponent's choice, he puts them on difficult area terrain (which is automatically dangerous for DS) the crypteks roll two one's on their dangerous terrain test. No armor or cover saves, hence you get 2 EL tokens from DS mishap

I think he was asking about rolling a 1 or 2 on the DS mishap table. Not mishap in general. Though it could have been worded better to avoid confusion.

rigeld2 wrote:As to destroyed being the same thing as wiped out

Falling back and reaching your table edge means the unit is destroyed. EL won't rescue you here

Falling back and being trapped means the unit is destroyed. EL won't save you from that.

A 1-2 on the mishap table means the unit is destroyed. EL won't save you from that.

To add to this discussion I just looked up the following to see where the effect is called "destroyed":
Falling back to table edge - unit is destroyed
Falling back and Trapped - unit is destroyed
Deepstrike mishap (roll 1 or 2) - unit is destroyed
And finally...Sweeping advance - unit is destroyed


RP from the necron codex:
"Reanimation Protocol rolls cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed - once the model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters."

EL rolls are not prevented by the unit being destroyed. EL counters are not removed if the unit has been destroyed. That limitation is only on RP.

EL from the necron codex:
"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play."

So yes, a EL counter is placed in all of the above cases when a model with EL is in a unit that is destroyed.

Nemesor dave - literally nothing you have said is new. Every single point has been debated over the last 11 pages

To correct you: wbb used the downed necrons as representations. AKA counters. Which is irrelevant as I was talking about the TRIGGER being the same.

Sweeping Advance says you destroy the UNIT, not the model. Do you know what destroy means? Do you?

Find where EL SPECIFIES it works against SA, and you would have an argument. Oh wait, it doesnt, so you don't