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nosferatu1001 wrote:Nemesor dave - literally nothing you have said is new. Every single point has been debated over the last 11 pages

To correct you: wbb used the downed necrons as representations. AKA counters. Which is irrelevant as I was talking about the TRIGGER being the same.

WBB has no place in this discussion. These are different rules and are played differently.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sweeping Advance says you destroy the UNIT, not the model. Do you know what destroy means? Do you?

Find where EL SPECIFIES it works against SA, and you would have an argument. Oh wait, it doesnt, so you don't

This has come up before.

Point one: Sweeping Advance does not allow a model or unit to be saved and continue fighting unless the rule making the exception specifically states it stops Sweeping Advance.

Counterpoint: EL does not save the model against SA therefore it does not need to mention SA in the rule. The model is destroyed (and removed) immediately, SA is satisfied, and a EL counter is placed. Later in the game the counter allows the player to roll and bring back the model. SA is in no way prevented or contradicted by EL and the model may still come back.

Do you have anything to add to this?

WRong. Destroyed is not the same as Removed as a Casualty is not the same as Removed from Play.

It has come up before and proven wrong. Read all 11 pages since before you started posting - you are not posting a new argument. Not at all.

Happyjew wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

Maybe this is conclusive proof that I'm sheerly morbid, but this is the sort of question I love. How about...

Deathmarks with 2 crypteks veil, scatter onto impassable terrain, the mishap roll comes up opponent's choice, he puts them on difficult area terrain (which is automatically dangerous for DS) the crypteks roll two one's on their dangerous terrain test. No armor or cover saves, hence you get 2 EL tokens from DS mishap

I think he was asking about rolling a 1 or 2 on the DS mishap table. Not mishap in general. Though it could have been worded better to avoid confusion.

Correct on both points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:For example if you start claiming an IC isnt part of a unit if he dies, the corrolary - that he is no longer part of a unit that died - is also claimed as true. Which is false.

Except for the EL rules, and the FAQ that make that quite true.

No, they don't. You're saying that a destroyed unit is the same as a wiped out unit.

Cite rules to back that statement up.

Cite something other than sophistic, semantic quibbling to back up yours.

That said, I don't have a strong opinion on if the EL model is removed by a SA. If the token is already down when the unit goes away, though, the FAQ should be sufficient t to say that the EL roll is made.

Wiped Out is mentioned twice (that I could find):
1. Necron FAQ asking about EL with a unit that is wiped out (taken to mean all models killed by shooting, cc, DT, etc or suffered RFPAAC/RFP effects).
2. Page 90 of the rulebook, which deals with completely annihilating your opponent.

Wiped out and destroy must have 2 different meanings, otherwise, if you suffer a DS mishap roll of 1 or 2, you would still get to make an EL roll.

Monster Rain wrote:Cite something other than sophistic, semantic quibbling that says it isn't.

That said, I don't have a strong opinion on if the EL model is removed by a SA. If the token is already down when the unit goes away, though, the FAQ should be sufficient t to say that the EL roll is made.

That's correct. The roll is made.

But you aren't allowed to bring the model back if you pass, because as far as can be determined from the rules, he's still part of the unit; and you aren't allowed to bring a unit back after SA destroys it. So make the roll, then ignore the result and remove the counter no matter what.

That's completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about, since there can't be EL tokens on the table from a unit that is being destroyed by a DS mishap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Cite something other than sophistic, semantic quibbling that says it isn't.

That said, I don't have a strong opinion on if the EL model is removed by a SA. If the token is already down when the unit goes away, though, the FAQ should be sufficient t to say that the EL roll is made.

That's correct. The roll is made.

But you aren't allowed to bring the model back if you pass, because as far as can be determined from the rules, he's still part of the unit; and you aren't allowed to bring a unit back after SA destroys it. So make the roll, then ignore the result and remove the counter no matter what.

In which you completely ignore both the rules for EL, as well as the FAQ.

You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

If there's no unit for it to join, the model comes back within 3" of the token. Like it says in the EL rules. And the FAQ.

Monster Rain wrote:

In which you completely ignore both the rules for EL, as well as the FAQ.

You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

If there's no unit for it to join, the model comes back within 3" of the token. Like it says in the EL rules. And the FAQ.

I'm not ignoring either. The issue isn't that there isn't a unit to join; the issue is that the IC has been destroyed. Not removed from play, as a casualty or otherwise; not wiped out. Destroyed. He was part of the unit. The unit was swept. That means he was swept too, and that means he can't come back, ever, period. He's done.

If the unit was wiped out before Combat Resolution, he could come back. If the unit was shot to death, he could come back. If the unit was transformed entirely into Chaos Spawn by Gift of Chaos (somehow) he could come back. But if the unit is swept, he can't.

If you're saying he can't come back from an EL token after the rest of his unit is destroyed, I'm afraid the is by definition ignoring the FAQ.

Monster Rain wrote:If you're saying he can't come back from an EL token after the rest of his unit is destroyed, I'm afraid the is by definition ignoring the FAQ.

Except that SA is a highly specific rule, which destroys the unit in a highly specific way, and requires any rule that counteracts it to have highly specific wording which EL does not have.

The FAQ does NOT say that EL reverses SA. It simply doesn't, and there's no way to read it as saying that. The one and only thing that's allowed to return a model after it's unit has been swept is a rule which specifically says that it works even against Sweeping Advance. EL does not say so; it doesn't work. That's all.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The one and only thing that's allowed to return a model after it's unit has been swept is a rule which specifically says that it works even against Sweeping Advance. EL does not say so; it doesn't work. That's all.

The FAQ specifically says that the model with EL can come back after his unit is destroyed.

Also, the destroyed/wiped out distinction that has been taken as gospel in this thread isn't as ironclad as it has been made out to be.

Page 40 of the BRB, under consolidation:

At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy, they may consolidate.

Either "destroyed" can mean the same thing as "wiped out" or you can't consolidate after you kill off an entire enemy unit in an assault.

Monster Rain wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:The one and only thing that's allowed to return a model after it's unit has been swept is a rule which specifically says that it works even against Sweeping Advance. EL does not say so; it doesn't work. That's all.

The FAQ specifically says that the model with EL can come back after his unit is destroyed.

But it does not say he can come back after his unit is destroyed by a Sweeping Advance, and that is what would be required. Sweeping Advance is different from literally every other rule in the game, because it very clearly states that NOTHING that does not explicitly reference it works.

Okay, that's fine, but the EL model wasn't destroyed by the Sweeping Advance. He was beaten to death by Space Marines or what have you.

Happyjew wrote:Wiped Out is mentioned twice (that I could find):
1. Necron FAQ asking about EL with a unit that is wiped out (taken to mean all models killed by shooting, cc, DT, etc or suffered RFPAAC/RFP effects).
2. Page 90 of the rulebook, which deals with completely annihilating your opponent.

Wiped out and destroy must have 2 different meanings, otherwise, if you suffer a DS mishap roll of 1 or 2, you would still get to make an EL roll.

If the model with EL is the one placed on the table and then you roll for DS mishap and roll a 1 or 2 yes you get to make an EL roll. Otherwise, the model was never on the table so you have no place to put the counter.

An example would be a Cryptek with a VoD. From the DS rules, you place a model then make your DS rolls. If you roll a 1 or 2 on the mishap, the Cryptek is the only model on the table when the unit is "destroyed". Remove it, place an EL counter in its place and at the end of the phase roll for EL.

Monster Rain wrote:Okay, that's fine, but the EL model wasn't destroyed by the Sweeping Advance. He was beaten to death by Space Marines or what have you.

Yes, he was.

MODELS are not destroyed by Sweeping Advance. UNITS are. If he was attached to the unit, he counts for all purposes as a normal member of the unit.

The only time ICs are allowed to leave a unit is in the Movement Phase. We don't have a rule that tells us they stop being a member of the unit when they're dead, so they still are. Yes, that sentence sounded very silly, but I honestly do think this is how the rules work. That being so, when the unit got swept, the IC ALSO got swept (despite already being dead).

The EL would let him come back from his earlier death; but he ALSO got swept, and it won't let him come back from that. He got killed twice, in different ways, and he's only allowed to use EL against one of them.

If you want a fluff justification, think of it this way; the Warriors broke and ran while the Overlord was still in the middle of putting himself back together, and the Space Marines just stomped all over his half-reassembled body in the pursuit.

BeRzErKeR wrote:MODELS are not destroyed by Sweeping Advance. UNITS are. If he was attached to the unit, he counts for all purposes as a normal member of the unit.

Units are made up of models. This model has a special rule, and he's already down from something other than a sweeping advance.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The only time ICs are allowed to leave a unit is in the Movement Phase.

This is not relevant.

BeRzErKeR wrote:We don't have a rule that tells us they stop being a member of the unit when they're dead, so they still are.

You mean aside from the Ever Living rule and the subsequent FAQ.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The EL would let him come back from his earlier death; but he ALSO got swept, and it won't let him come back from that.

He didn't get swept. He was down. His unit got swept. I refer you to the FAQ.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If you want a fluff justification,

No thank you.

BeRzErKeR wrote:That being so, when the unit got swept, the IC ALSO got swept (despite already being dead).

You're going to have to do better than just making stuff up. Where does it say in the rules dead members of a unit are swept? Where does it say dead models are still part of the unit?

Nowhere is that said which is why EL specifies that the returning model must re-join the unit if it had been attached to one and (from the FAQ and Codex) does not neccessarily have to rejoin the unit if they were destroyed.

Nemesor Dave wrote: Where does it say dead models are still part of the unit?

Codex: Necron FAQ:
"Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes.

Necron Codex says:

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purpose of Reanimation Protocols..."

Emphasis mine.

Necron FAQ says:

"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

Emphasis also mine.

An attached IC does not have Reanimation Protocols; he has Ever-living. Since these are two separate and distinct rules, and the only thing he is singled out as (counting as) not belonging to the unit for is Reanimation Protocols, he is, in fact, still part of the unit.

As ToBeWilly has pointed out, that very same FAQ quite clearly indicates that dead members of a Necron unit are still members of that unit. There is one and exactly one exception drawn; if an IC can legally return through Ever-living, AND the rest of his unit has been wiped out, he can return to play as a separate unit. But that still depends on his being able to return in the first place!

So: a unit gets swept. That means ALL MEMBERS of the unit got swept; and that includes the dead ones. And Ever-living cannot bring you back after you've been swept.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

As ToBeWilly has pointed out, that very same FAQ quite clearly indicates that dead members of a Necron unit are still members of that unit. There is one and exactly one exception drawn; if an IC can legally return through Ever-living, AND the rest of his unit has been wiped out, he can return to play as a separate unit. But that still depends on his being able to return in the first place!

So: a unit gets swept. That means ALL MEMBERS of the unit got swept; and that includes the dead ones. And Ever-living cannot bring you back after you've been swept.

Good point ToBeWilly. This does help blur the distinction between a character that dies before SA and a character that dies from SA.

The point still remains when the character with EL does get swept. The model is swept, destroyed and a counteris placed. The model then is not saved, but destroyed (not prevented) and later brought back by the counter.

You seem to be saying that SA destroys a character that is swept, the counter is placed and and then if EL is successful SA destroys the character again. Interesting but I don't think SA is a lasting effect. It's an immediate effect and does not destroy a model more than once. Look at it like this: the attacker destroys the model hacking everything in the general vicinity to pieces with sweeping advance. If the attackers unit then consolidates away, at the end of the phase if nobody is around to prevent it, the model reassembles. (which is when the 3" rule comes into effect).

Nemesor Dave wrote:

The point still remains when the character with EL does get swept. The model is swept, destroyed and a counteris placed. The model then is not saved, but destroyed (not prevented) and later brought back by the counter.

Models do not get swept, units get destroyed by a sweeping advance. The entire unit.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Good point ToBeWilly. This does help blur the distinction between a character that dies before SA and a character that dies from SA.

The point still remains when the character with EL does get swept. The model is swept, destroyed and a counteris placed. The model then is not saved, but destroyed (not prevented) and later brought back by the counter.

You seem to be saying that SA destroys a character that is swept, the counter is placed and and then if EL is successful SA destroys the character again. Interesting but I don't think SA is a lasting effect. It's an immediate effect and does not destroy a model more than once. Look at it like this: the attacker destroys the model hacking everything in the general vicinity to pieces with sweeping advance. If the attackers unit then consolidates away, at the end of the phase if nobody is around to prevent it, the model reassembles. (which is when the 3" rule comes into effect).

Fair enough; and in order to argue about this point, you once again have to get down into the nitty-gritty semantics of "rescued" and "destroyed". That's been done already in this thread, and I'm not interested in doing it again; look back around pages 7 and 8, I think, for the grammatical arguments I made earlier on the subject. To paraphrase my point briefly, SA disallows "rescuing" the model, and includes some other very definitive language; in my opinion, the wording of the rule is sufficient to make the point that someone destroyed by SA is never allowed to return. In other words, once swept, always swept; it's a singular event, yes, but the effect of the event (IMO) is "this unit can no longer affect the game, period".

However, as I said, having an argument about that requires both sides to dice grammar very, very finely, which I think I've done too much of on this subject already; so take this opinion as an interpretation, not the word of God.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Wiped Out is mentioned twice (that I could find):
1. Necron FAQ asking about EL with a unit that is wiped out (taken to mean all models killed by shooting, cc, DT, etc or suffered RFPAAC/RFP effects).
2. Page 90 of the rulebook, which deals with completely annihilating your opponent.

Wiped out and destroy must have 2 different meanings, otherwise, if you suffer a DS mishap roll of 1 or 2, you would still get to make an EL roll.

If the model with EL is the one placed on the table and then you roll for DS mishap an d roll a 1 or 2 yes you get to make an EL roll. Otherwise, the model was never on the table so you have no place to put the counter.

An example would be a Cryptek with a VoD. From the DS rules, you place a model then make your DS rolls. If you roll a 1 or 2 on the mishap, the Cryptek is the only model on the table when the unit is "destroyed". Remove it, place an EL counter in its place and at the end of the phase roll for EL.

LOL as much as I want this to be true its not. My saint celestine can't deepstrike down into a unit and thrn randomly get back up. No model is placed when you mishap due to the restrictions of mishapping in the first place.

BeRzErKeR wrote:However, as I said, having an argument about that requires both sides to dice grammar very, very finely, which I think I've done too much of on this subject already; so take this opinion as an interpretation, not the word of God.

Yeah, this is definitely a case for house rules. Once the debate turns entirely on semantics it has ceased to be useful.

time wizard wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:SA does not remove EL tokens.

10 pages and we are still right where we started from.

Okay, you assert that SA does not remove EL tokens.

Fine.

Quote me the part of the EL rule that says the EL counter is not removed when the unit is caught by a sweeping advance.

Do that, and I'll be quiet.

It doesn't have to. Permissive ruleset. You only do things when told to.

With that in mind:

Reanimation protocols:
"If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it..."
"Reanimation protocols cannot be attempted if the unit has bee ndestroyed - once the last model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters."

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols."


What prevents the counter from being placed is that the models were not removed 'as a casualty' it has nothing to do with not removing the counter; it's never placed originally.

That said, if the EL model dies in the assault, and THEN that unit is swept, he still gets to make his roll.

EL model dies - EL token placed
Unit is swept - All counters in the unit (in terms of RP) are removed (both due to the fallback and the unit being wiped out). This, as explicitly stated in the wording of RP, does not include the EL counter.
Enemy unit consolidates
Remaining assaults finish
EL token is still on the board, that model gets to get up within 3inches of its counter.

No where does it say to remove an EL counter when a unit is destroyed (and in fact this is exactly the point of EL).

That said, if the EL model is alive when swept it does NOT get to make a roll because no counter is ever placed (was not destroyed 'as a casualty').

It's pretty simple.


Also, once again, destroyed =/= gone for good in game terms (at least no one has been able to quote as such yet), and since SA is fully resolved before the EL roll is made...

AAAAAAAnd we're back again

We now have people "mistaking" the FAQ entry to mean something entirely different, ignoring the requirement for any special rule to SPECIFY that it works against Sweeping Advance otherwise it doesnt.

ATSKNF shows you what specify means. Hint: it actually has to mention "Sweeping Advance" somewhere in it.

EL does not save you from SA. The clue is in the wording for SA.

Not that the doubters will take the blindest bit of notice - someone new will come along, rehash a debunked argument from 8 pages ago having not read the thread, misconstrue a FAQ again, start dropping "for the purposes of RP" from the rule to come up with a novel idea that an EL model doesnt count as part of the unit - which is a TRULY wonderful mangling of rules, btw - and we'll be back to page 1 again

EL. DOES. NOT. SAVE. YOU. FROM. SA. Understand yet?

I haven't bothered to read the first 11 pages, but according to the Necron FAQ:
"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

and, I'm joking. I really should delete this post before I get in toruble for trolling...

Happyjew wrote:I haven't bothered to read the first 11 pages, but according to the Necron FAQ:
"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

and, I'm joking. I really should delete this post before I get in toruble for trolling...

lmao I take another 13 hour nap and yet again receive such a welcome wake up. I need to back up and fully read the last 2 pages, but briefly...

1) I was interested in the language in the last paragraph of the RP rules. I'm surprised I missed that. Still, I don't think it is conclusive. Saying A cannot X, and B is not like A, does not imply that B can X.
2) Good find on the juxtaposition of wiped out and destroyed in the fall back language. It does call the distinction into question, but given the large body of contrary precedent, I would call it a mistake, not a revelation. Worth thinking about though.
3) I believe that a rule or ruling that allows a model with EL to come back after being destroyed would be sufficient to overcome SA. That would be a How -I-Would-Play-It interpretation. Still, I do not believe the new faq or the RP/EL rules have yet been shown to provide even that exception.

"3) I believe that a rule or ruling that allows a model with EL to come back after being destroyed would be sufficient to overcome SA. That would be a How -I-Would-Play-It interpretation. Still, I do not believe the new faq or the RP/EL rules have yet been shown to provide even that exception. "

Except that would be breaking the SA rule, which requires your rule to SPECIFY that it works against SA, otherwise it doesnt.

FOr the 99th time. Are people struggling with what "Specify" means?