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nosferatu1001 wrote:

EL. DOES. NOT. SAVE. YOU. FROM. SA. Understand yet?

Unless the model with EL died in the assault and wasn't destroyed by the SA itself.

@nos - As I very clearly stated, that would be a how-I-would-play-it interpretation.

The SA rule is very strongly worded, and I think most people would agree with your RAW interpretation, not all, but most. That being said, IMO a rule or ruling that allows a model with EL to come back after being destroyed would be sufficient to overcome SA, at least if well phrased and presented to me in a casual game. Honestly, I'd give it to them in a tournament and not even call a TO, but I am an odd duck.

Edit: I am now going to do some fortunetelling....
In my near future I will be seeing "@fool"

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

EL. DOES. NOT. SAVE. YOU. FROM. SA. Understand yet?

Unless the model with EL died in the assault and wasn't destroyed by the SA itself.

So, found that specific wording in the EL rule yet? No?

Guess you're still wrong then.

Yeah, it's in the FAQ.

The EL model wasn't killed in an SA. His unit was.

The unit was destroyed. Destroyed can mean the same thing as wiped out, as per the consolidation rules. Or did you not read the whole thread before responding?

Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, it's in the FAQ.

The EL model wasn't killed in an SA. His unit was.

The unit was destroyed. Destroyed can mean the same thing as wiped out, as per the consolidation rules. Or did you not read the whole thread before responding?

What, the FAQ says this works against Sweeping Advance? Oh wait, no, it doesnt! Who'd have thought! Oh - and the model WAS destroyed by SA, because the whole unit (including the EL model, who is part of the unit - or didnt you read that bit of the FAQ?) was destroyed.

You still dont understand the word "specifies", do you?

There is no "EL model". That model was removed from play. There is only a token. That token exists individually of the unit.

Wrong. See the FAQ I referenced, covering the res orb. The EL model is STILL part of the unit. Of course this is all covered in the basic rules - you still have a presence so are still a member of the unit - but this is the simplest way to show you.

Please dont drop into another thread without having read it, it becomes ... tiresome explaining it all again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, the FAQ says this works against Sweeping Advance?

It doesn't need to, because the EL token was down before the Sweeping Advance happened.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still dont understand the word "specifies", do you?

Sure I do.

If the EL model was destroyed by a SA it might even be relevant to the discussion. Also, I can see you're starting to get cranky again. There's no need for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:There is no "EL model". That model was removed from play. There is only a token. That token exists individually of the unit.

Yes. This is a better way to look at it, I think.

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, the FAQ says this works against Sweeping Advance?

It doesn't need to, because the EL token was down before the Sweeping Advance happened.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still dont understand the word "specifies", do you?

Sure I do.

If the EL model was destroyed by a SA it might even be relevant to the discussion. Also, I can see you're starting to get cranky again. There's no need for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:There is no "EL model". That model was removed from play. There is only a token. That token exists individually of the unit.

Yes. This is a better way to look at it, I think.

Also consider the possibility that a large unit that gets a good consolidation roll will many times be able to move in such a way that the ever-living model cannot even be placed on the board, due to the 3" restriction on placement. Also what is the current accepted Ever Living token size? I've been using 1" circular tokens, personally.

The EL model is still part of the unit (ref. the Res Orb FAQ).
The Unit was swept and destroyed. Destroyed is not the same thing as wiped out - and the FAQ only addresses wiped out.
Attempts to bring the unit back to the board violates SA.
If you are knocked down before combat resolution, you can't get back up if the unit was swept.

And no - you can't get back up after being run off the table or if the unit was trapped. And you don't get to place an EL counter if you are destroyed due to a deep strike mishap.

rigeld2 wrote:The Unit was swept and destroyed. Destroyed is not the same thing as wiped out - and the FAQ only addresses wiped out.

Either it can be, or you can't consolidate after wiping out a unit according to the consolidation rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:I've been using 1" circular tokens, personally.

Honestly, I've just been doing what I've always done: laying stuff on its side where it went down. I have poker chips in my bag in case this is a problem for an opponent.

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, the FAQ says this works against Sweeping Advance?

It doesn't need to, because the EL token was down before the Sweeping Advance happened.

Irrelevant, as SA works against the whole unit. Read the res orb FAQ yet? Or is this a horse to water moment with you again?

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still dont understand the word "specifies", do you?

Sure I do.

If the EL model was destroyed by a SA it might even be relevant to the discussion. Also, I can see you're starting to get cranky again. There's no need for that.

No, you clearly dont. SA specifies you cannot save the unit, unless the special rule specifies it works against SA. SA destroyed the EL model because it destroyed the unit the EL model is a part of (again, see the FAQ which confirms what is already in the rules) EL does not specify that it works against SA, so it doesnt.

The EL model WAS destroyed by SA, you just dont seem to understand what SA actually does.

Not cranky, just shocked at how poor your argument is - a simple rehash of the already debunked arguments with added obtuseness.

Monster Rain wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:There is no "EL model". That model was removed from play. There is only a token. That token exists individually of the unit.

Yes. This is a better way to look at it, I think.

And entirely incorrect by the actual rules of the game.

You can play houserules if you wish, but if you wish to play actual 40k rules then EL doesnt protect you from SA, because it doesnt say it does. It really is as simple as that.

I'll restate what I stated on the first page...

If a unit with a Necron character or independant character is wiped out due to shooting, the character or IC gets Everliving (according to the Necron FAQ).

If a unit with a Necron character or independant character is wiped out due to cc, the character or IC gets Everliving unless the model can't stand up within 3" of the marker and outside of 1" of an enemy model (according to the Necron FAQ and codex).

Those should be clear... no arguments on that? Good.

I've read just about everything in this thread. I've weighed various arguments. Here is how I'm going to play this one with my local group until I hear different from INAT or GW.

If a character or IC dies prior to the sweeping advance, their token is picked up just like any other RP token. If they are still alive at the time of the sweeping advance, they are removed and don't get to place an EL token.

It's not a rules thing for me, but more of a RAI. To me, when RAW isn't clear, the fluff determines RAI. Sweeping advance is about units getting run down, but it's also about units scattering off the battlefield. If that IC or character turns metal-kilt and runs... well, he didn't die so he wouldn't get a token, now did he?

rigeld2 wrote:The EL model is still part of the unit (ref. the Res Orb FAQ).
The Unit was swept and destroyed. Destroyed is not the same thing as wiped out - and the FAQ only addresses wiped out.
Attempts to bring the unit back to the board violates SA.
If you are knocked down before combat resolution, you can't get back up if the unit was swept.

And no - you can't get back up after being run off the table or if the unit was trapped. And you don't get to place an EL counter if you are destroyed due to a deep strike mishap.

It seems to me that you and Nos are incorrectly conflating SA with EL. There really is no rules conflict or interaction between the two. EL does not prevent SA from happening and SA does not remove EL tokens.

1.) EL token is placed.
2.) SA happens. Unit is swept
3.) EL rule is resolved.

You seem to be inferring that SA must remove an EL token when there is nothing in the rules to support that. Yes, the SA rule explicitly states that there is nothing that can prevent or rescue a unit from SA. I'm in full agreement with that. EL does not stop a SA from happening. To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

-Yad.

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Read the res orb FAQ yet? Or is this a horse to water moment with you again?

I think I'll continue debating this with people who aren't so rude. Feel free to read along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

I think the point is that the argument for why Yad is incorrect is insufficient for many. It hinges on ignoring the order in which everything happens, as well as the FAQ regarding EL and the unit being destroyed.

Let me ask this:
Once a unit is swept "the battle is over for them" (yes that is fluff, i understand that). The unit is destroyed and immediately removed from the game. Correct?

If you pass the EL roll, and place the model back into play, is the unit destroyed?
Has the unit been immediately removed from play?
Is the battle over for the unit?

At the time the SA happens, yes. Yes it is.

Unless tokens are part of a unit now, which will be a surprise to my next Dark Eldar opponent when he leaves a pain token in my LOS during the shooting phase.

Monster Rain wrote:At the time the SA happens, yes. Yes it is.

Unless tokens are part of a unit now, which will be a surprise to my next Dark Eldar opponent when he leaves a pain token in my LOS during the shooting phase.

Nice strawman.

EL tokens are explicitly part of the unit - as the Res Orb FAQ says. Find anything that mentions Pain Tokens are part of the unit. Also, find any rule allowing you to shoot at a Pain Token.

That plus the fact that there is no such thing as an EL token. They are counters. Both for RP and EL.

time wizard wrote:That plus the fact that there is no such thing as an EL token. They are counters. Both for RP and EL.

Yes, however EL game mechanic uses the tokens differently than RP.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

I think the rules for EL and SA (and associated FAQ entries) has been posted more then enough times. Why add to that? I was pointing out that there is no inherent contradiction in iterating through both rule mechanics.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

I think the rules for EL and SA (and associated FAQ entries) has been posted more then enough times. Why add to that? I was pointing out that there is no inherent contradiction in iterating through both rule mechanics.

And as I said - that's been argued and failed. There is an inherent contradiction - SA destroyed the unit. The EL character is still a part of the unit. How is the EL character coming back again?
If you disagree, please explain why instead of saying "they don't contradict" and not supporting with rules.

The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone. How can a token get run down in a sweeping advance?

And that wasn't a straw man. I'm not sure, based on what you said, that you know what one is.

Monster Rain wrote:The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone. How can a token get run down in a sweeping advance?

Because the unit was destroyed, and attempts to rescue the unit are forbidden without explicitly saying they override SA.
It's like you didn't read the thread at all.

And that wasn't a straw man. I'm not sure, based on what you said, that you know what one is.

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."
You tried to liken the EL token to a Pain Token, and said "Unless tokens are part of a unit now, which will be a surprise to my next Dark Eldar opponent when he leaves a pain token in my LOS during the shooting phase."
That implies that you can shoot at tokens (you can't) and that all tokens are the same (they aren't).

You misrepresented the argument (stating that all tokens are the same, so if EL tokens are part of a unit, so are Pain tokens) and then argued against it by implying you were going to shoot at your opponents pain tokens.
EL characters are part of the unit that they were when they became tokenized, as the Res Orb FAQ states.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

I think the rules for EL and SA (and associated FAQ entries) has been posted more then enough times. Why add to that? I was pointing out that there is no inherent contradiction in iterating through both rule mechanics.

And as I said - that's been argued and failed.

Which is exactly the same opinion I hold of your position.

rigeld2 wrote: There is an inherent contradiction

Disagree. You can iterate through the entire sequence of an Assault and not cause a conflict in the rules between EL and SA. EL doesn't care that SA has happened and likewise. I'll expand upon that in my next blurb.

rigeld2 wrote: - SA destroyed the unit. The EL character is still a part of the unit.

Agreed. However, the model generating a 'EL Token' has already been destroyed. The important bit here is that in my scenario it was not destroyed as a result of a successful SA. I would agree with you that if such a model was caught in a SA while it was still 'alive' then you would remove it without generating a token. I'd treat it exactly like I would any effect that removes such a model from play (and not as a casualty).

rigeld2 wrote:How is the EL character coming back again?
If you disagree, please explain why instead of saying "they don't contradict" and not supporting with rules.

It's coming back because the result of it's destruction was not from SA. If the model was removed from play prior to SA activating then it would be allowed a chance to come back. SA doesn't remove tokens.

Scenario:

During the course of an assault I have a Lord with 10 Warriors. I suffer enough wounds such that only 4 warriors survive. This means I have 1 EL token and 6 RP tokens as well as 4 Warrior models left on the board. I fail my Morale check and break. My opponent's SA check successful and my unit, specifically the 4 Warrior models, are swept. I am no longer allowed to make my rolls for RP as all of the Warriors were removed. My Lord though can still make his EL roll as it was not SA that generated the token. In fact, SA will never generate a EL or RP token.

-Yad

Yad wrote:It's coming back because the result of it's destruction was not from SA. If the model was removed from play prior to SA activating then it would be allowed a chance to come back. SA doesn't remove tokens.

So you're rescuing the unit from destruction then?

rigeld2 wrote:So you're rescuing the unit from destruction then?

Yes.

Then getting mad that you used that word.

So - MR can be ignored as an irrelevancy, as they are ignoring the FAQ that states the EL token is a member of the unit, as this entirely discounts their argument.

MR - you clearly havent read the thread, as you have yet to post anything which indicates you have. You are not worth debating with until you do so, and demonstrate that you have done so by posting something actually new or valid.

Yad - you are conflating Destroyed and Removed as a Casualty. The two terms are not the same.

By keeping the token there you are trying to use a special rule (RP) to save a unit (the EL token(s)) with no specific allowance in the EL rules to do so, which breaks SA.

For the 99th time this thread alone. Again, its like you havent read the thread....

rigeld2 wrote:
EL tokens are explicitly part of the unit - as the Res Orb FAQ says.

I may have missed something. I see...

"If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."

and

"Q: Is the roll for an Ever-living counter the same as a
Reanimation Protocol roll; does it benefit from the
resurrection orb? (p29)
A: Yes to both questions"

Where is the explicit part? I know its hard to tell in text, but I'm not trying to be rude or combative. I am honestly confused.

"his, and his unit’s,"
the token MUST be part of the unit still, otherwise "his unit" couldnt occur, making the FAQ pointless