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foolishmortal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
EL tokens are explicitly part of the unit - as the Res Orb FAQ says.

I may have missed something. I see...

"If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."

Where is the explicit part? I know its hard to tell in text, but I'm not trying to be rude or combative. I am honestly confused.

Bolded it for you. Since he's been removed as a casualty, the only thing representing him in the game is an EL token. Since his unit can benefit from the Res Orb, he's still a member of the unit, and is represented by the EL token.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:It's coming back because the result of it's destruction was not from SA. If the model was removed from play prior to SA activating then it would be allowed a chance to come back. SA doesn't remove tokens.

So you're rescuing the unit from destruction then?

Nope. SA has done what it was supposed to do. Ever-living triggers at the end of the Assault Phase. We've now moved past SA. We've successfully iterated through every step in the Assault Phase and now have a chance to roll for EL. Because SA doesn't remove tokens. When SA occurs it will take out any 'living' models. Those models removed in such a way cannot be saved. SA did not remove the Lord. That happened earlier in the assault when he was removed as a casualty.

At no point do I believe I have a broken a rule. I've followed the mechanics for EL (as far as generating and placing a token), and I've followed the mechanics for SA ('killing' and removing models caught). At the end of the Assault Phase, after all that's been done, I now roll for EL.

-Yad

nosferatu1001 wrote:"his, and his unit’s,"
the token MUST be part of the unit still, otherwise "his unit" couldnt occur, making the FAQ pointless

I disagree sir. I do not believe that the EL counter is part of the unit. It represents a reminder to take an action related to that unit and as a position marker for carrying out that future action.

"Was that unit swept?"

"Yea. They were destroyed."

"So what rescued it?"

"Nothing."

"Then why is it on the table affecting this battle?"

"Because this special rule allows it to."

"To come back from Sweeping Advance?"

"No."

". . ."

rigeld2 wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
EL tokens are explicitly part of the unit - as the Res Orb FAQ says.

I may have missed something. I see...

"If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."

Where is the explicit part? I know its hard to tell in text, but I'm not trying to be rude or combative. I am honestly confused.

Bolded it for you. Since he's been removed as a casualty, the only thing representing him in the game is an EL token. Since his unit can benefit from the Res Orb, he's still a member of the unit, and is represented by the EL token.

He's inferring that that's what it means. While the FAQ certainly does not specifically state that tokens are a part of the unit. I.e., there is no statement in the FAQ answer that says, "all EL/RP tokens are considered to be part of the unit...". What this FAQ is saying is that a Res Orb can still be used on an EL/RP token even if the the bearer of the Res Orb is removed from play.

While I anticipate some less than congenial response to that, let me just say first that you did say 'explicitly'.

-Yad

Yad wrote:Because SA doesn't remove tokens.

I agree.

SA destroys the unit, and says that the unit cannot be rescued.
The EL token is still there.
You can roll for the EL token.
Bringing the model back, however, would rescue the unit. That is forbidden by SA.

Yad wrote:
At no point do I believe I have a broken a rule. I've followed the mechanics for EL (as far as generating and placing a token), and I've followed the mechanics for SA ('killing' and removing models caught). At the end of the Assault Phase, after all that's been done, I now roll for EL.

I disagree sir. The context of destroyed in general and SA in particular call for a rule to specifically counteract it in order to be allow the unit to not be affected. The dead model with El is still part of the swept unit. The swept unit is destroyed. EL does not specify rescues from destruction.

Yad wrote:and I've followed the mechanics for SA ('killing' and removing models caught). At the end of the Assault Phase, after all that's been done, I now roll for EL.

-Yad

Sweeping advance does not 'kill' and remove models, it destroys units. The entire unit is destroyed and immediately removed.

Yad wrote:He's inferring that that's what it means. While the FAQ certainly does not specifically state that tokens are a part of the unit. I.e., there is no statement in the FAQ answer that says, "all EL/RP tokens are considered to be part of the unit...". What this FAQ is saying is that a Res Orb can still be used on an EL/RP token even if the the bearer of the Res Orb is removed from play.

While I anticipate some less than congenial response to that, let me just say first that you did say 'explicitly'.

explicit - Adj. - "Stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt."
There isn't room for confusion or doubt.

You may not find the discussion congenial, but a) that goes both ways and b) it's likely just because our personalities clash.
I'm not intending to come off as a jerk - I'm just trying not to either rage or introduce a bias into what I'm saying.

Also, I find the debating side of this forum really fun, but I've found that if I accidentally convey some of the fun I'm having into text, it gets misconstrued very easily...
So I tend to edit things down to being blunt.

kirsanth wrote:"Was that unit swept?"

"Yea. They were destroyed."

"So what rescued it?"

"Nothing."

"Then why is it on the table affecting this battle?"

"Because this special rule allows it to."

"To come back from Sweeping Advance?"

"No."

". . ."

And this is how I see it.

Was the character removed as a casualty? Yes, remove the model and place an ever-living token.

Was the unit subsequently affected by a Sweeping Advance? Yes, remove all models (not tokens) from the unit.

Is it now the end of the Assault Phase? Yes, roll for Ever-Living. Models with just the RP property cannot roll.

Did you come back from a Sweeping Advance? No, as Sweeping Advance did not remove the model that generated the Ever-living token.

It still holds true that Sweeping Advance did what it was supposed to do. What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote: Since he's been removed as a casualty, the only thing representing him in the game is an EL token. Since his unit can benefit from the Res Orb, he's still a member of the unit, and is represented by the EL token.

I disagree with that as a necessary implication. The wargear (Res orb) has provided the unit with a modification to one of its rules (RP or EL) The nature of the modification does not require the wargear on the table to work, merely that it was on the table when the RP or EL counters were placed.

It does bring up an interesting side question. If a lord with orb dies at Init 5, does a warrior that dies at Init 1 come back on a 4+ or a 5+?

Yad wrote:
Was the character removed as a casualty? Yes, remove the model and place an ever-living token.

Was the unit subsequently affected by a Sweeping Advance? Yes, remove the unit.

Is it now the end of the Assault Phase? Yes, roll for Ever-Living. Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Not that anything can come back from the roll.

FTFY. SA doesn't remove models.

What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

There isn't a timing issue - SA doesn't say that it's limited to a phase or turn... it just is.

Yad wrote: What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

Correct. I see nothing that says it is ok to rescue the unit later; and something that says the unit cannot be rescued.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:Because SA doesn't remove tokens.

I agree.

SA destroys the unit, and says that the unit cannot be rescued.
The EL token is still there.
You can roll for the EL token.
Bringing the model back, however, would rescue the unit. That is forbidden by SA.

And that I think is the fundamental difference between our two viewpoints. I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring. Hence it cannot be construed as a save, special rule, or attempt to rescue the unit. A unit caught by a SA cannot do anything to preserve itself from it. However, once the SA has been resolved and the affected unit has been removed, we still have the tokens to deal with (at the end of the Assault Phase). Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Models with the EL get a roll.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote: What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

Correct. I see nothing that says it is ok to rescue the unit later; and something that says the unit cannot be rescued.

First, Ever-living is not a 'rescue'. Second, I'm not convinced that you can extend SA to things that happen after you execute and resolve the SA mechanic. SA prevents any saves, or special rules from being used when the unit is Swept. As I just said earlier, after you resolve SA you now deal with any tokens left behind.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:
Was the character removed as a casualty? Yes, remove the model and place an ever-living token.

Was the unit subsequently affected by a Sweeping Advance? Yes, remove the unit.

Is it now the end of the Assault Phase? Yes, roll for Ever-Living. Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Not that anything can come back from the roll.

FTFY. SA doesn't remove models.

What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

There isn't a timing issue - SA doesn't say that it's limited to a phase or turn... it just is.

Please note that on the second line I said, "Yes, remove the unit."

SA is one of many steps one may or may not be forced to follow during the course of an assault. It's not a nebulous 'thing'. It has very explicit entrance and exit criteria. EL also has very explicit entrance and exit criteria.

-Yad

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring.

This is what I see as a fundamental disconnect.

Along the lines of "Guns do not kill people!" perhaps.

So an attempt to rescue the unit isnt an attempt to rescue the unit?

The UNIT is removed by SA. Gone. Destroyed. Entirely ceases to exist.

You then attempt to un-destroy the unit, against the explicit requirement of the SA rule, and that somehow isnt saving the unit?

Did you miss what "rescue" means? Seriously?

kirsanth wrote:Along the lines of "Guns do not kill people!" perhaps.

Well (barring mechanical malfunction) they don't - someone had to pull the trigger... or do I get to mount my bolters on a base?
(not a serious post, I'm not wanting to bring politics into YMDC)

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring.

This is what I see as a fundamental disconnect.

Along the lines of "Guns do not kill people!" perhaps.

Analogy, though crystal clear, is not intensely similar. See my post about how I describe an Assault Phase as a series of discreet actions.

-Yad

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring. Hence it cannot be construed as a save, special rule, or attempt to rescue the unit. A unit caught by a SA cannot do anything to preserve itself from it. However, once the SA has been resolved and the affected unit has been removed, we still have the tokens to deal with (at the end of the Assault Phase). Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Models with the EL get a roll.

I agree with you up to a point. I even argued a similar position earlier in this thread. The problem lies in the fact that the dead model with EL is still part of the unit that got swept. This seems to be one of those unusual cases where a dead model is still counted as part of its unit. Ghost Arc counting and 4+ res orb rolls are benefits from this being the case. This is a drawback. I cannot in good consciousness (or conscious, or whatever the correct term is) accept the benefits but shirk the drawbacks.

Yad wrote:See my post about how I describe an Assault Phase as a series of discreet actions.

Which would matter if the rules did the same.

editing to add:
In most places, that is a safe assumption.
In specific instances you need to remember it is an assumption.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So an attempt to rescue the unit isnt an attempt to rescue the unit?

The UNIT is removed by SA. Gone. Destroyed. Entirely ceases to exist.

You then attempt to un-destroy the unit, against the explicit requirement of the SA rule, and that somehow isnt saving the unit?

Did you miss what "rescue" means? Seriously?

So you're saying that the model that generated an EL token, when it was removed as a casualty, is now killed again when the unit is removed by SA? Hmm, double destroyed? SA doesn't remove tokens.

I haven't 'un-destroyed' anything as SA never destroyed it in the first place. I take it that you haven't read my previous posts as your assertion about my missing 'rescue' is entirely without merit.

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:explicit - Adj. - "Stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt."
There isn't room for confusion or doubt.

I disagree sir. I would not call this explicit, merely an assumption on your part that creates as many or more problems as it solves.

rigeld2 wrote:
Also, I find the debating side of this forum really fun, but I've found that if I accidentally convey some of the fun I'm having into text, it gets misconstrued very easily...
So I tend to edit things down to being blunt.

I agree sir

foolishmortal wrote:

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring. Hence it cannot be construed as a save, special rule, or attempt to rescue the unit. A unit caught by a SA cannot do anything to preserve itself from it. However, once the SA has been resolved and the affected unit has been removed, we still have the tokens to deal with (at the end of the Assault Phase). Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Models with the EL get a roll.

I agree with you up to a point. I even argued a similar position earlier in this thread. The problem lies in the fact that the dead model with EL is still part of the unit that got swept. This seems to be one of those unusual cases where a dead model is still counted as part of its unit. Ghost Arc counting and 4+ res orb rolls are benefits from this being the case. This is a drawback. I cannot in good consciousness (or conscious, or whatever the correct term is) accept the benefits but shirk the drawbacks.

Ghost Ark cares only about 'living units' not dead ones. That is to say, that there must be at least 1 'living' model in the unit for the Ghost Ark to work. So I don't think that quite applies in this instance. Because I think that SA removes only the unit and not the tokens, you still need to resolve those at the end of the phase.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring.

This is what I see as a fundamental disconnect.

Along the lines of "Guns do not kill people!" perhaps.

Yad wrote:I haven't 'un-destroyed' anything as SA never destroyed it in the first place.

Then SA was not done properly. It affects the entire unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Also, I find the debating side of this forum really fun, but I've found that if I accidentally convey some of the fun I'm having into text, it gets misconstrued very easily...
So I tend to edit things down to being blunt.

I understand. It's a bit of an art-form to be able to inject humor into a forum debate. The sheer number of personalities involved can make things snowball pretty quickly.

-Yad

Yad wrote:So you're saying that the model that generated an EL token, when it was removed as a casualty, is now killed again when the unit is removed by SA? Hmm, double destroyed?

I don't believe that is what was said. The model with EL might have been a casualty, but the unit was destroyed by SA. IMO, until shown otherwise, the unit includes all parts of the unit.

Yad wrote:SA doesn't remove tokens.

Actually, it does remove counters. The NO proponents on this thread seems to have given up the argument to remove the EL counters in the event of a SA. I see specific rules removing the RP counters, but I don't see an exemption in the case of SA.

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote:I haven't 'un-destroyed' anything as SA never destroyed it in the first place.

Then SA was not done properly. It affects the entire unit.

I think that by now you'll know my response to this.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
Ghost Ark cares only about 'living units' not dead ones. That is to say, that there must be at least 1 'living' model in the unit for the Ghost Ark to work. So I don't think that quite applies in this instance. Because I think that SA removes only the unit and not the tokens, you still need to resolve those at the end of the phase.

I apologize. I was not terribly clear and you were not here earlier in the thread to get the context. The Ghost Arc repair barge ability is relevant because it references a unit's starting size, this along with a res orb still helping it's dead bearer and unit mates was meant to illustrate that a dead model is still part of a unit for some, but not all, situations.

edit: never mind the earlier side question about res orbs and Init steps in assault. new faq clarifies nicely (for once)
"Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I retract part of my earlier statement "Actually, it [SA] does remove counters. The NO proponents on this thread seems to have given up the argument to remove the EL counters in the event of a SA. I see specific rules removing the RP counters, but I don't see an exemption in the case of SA. "

It's the fall back move that removes RP counters, not SA

If it helps, SA rules do not specify that it is SA 'casualties' that makes a unit unable to be rescued. Simply that a unit that has been swept is no longer part of the game (battle).

foolishmortal wrote:

Yad wrote:
Ghost Ark cares only about 'living units' not dead ones. That is to say, that there must be at least 1 'living' model in the unit for the Ghost Ark to work. So I don't think that quite applies in this instance. Because I think that SA removes only the unit and not the tokens, you still need to resolve those at the end of the phase.

I apologize. I was not terribly clear and you were not here earlier in the thread to get the context. The Ghost Arc repair barge ability is relevant because it references a unit's starting size, this along with a res orb still helping it's dead bearer and unit mates was meant to illustrate that a dead model is still part of a unit for some, but not all, situations.

I think I see what you're getting at here. However, I think that what matters there is the unit composition. Specifically the number of models in the unit when the unit was instantiated. That is to say, if we were describe a unit as a set of properties, number being one of them, then the Ghost Ark doesn't care about the state of the models that are in the unit, but rather the number of models that were there when the unit was created. At least that's how I read the Ghost Ark rule.

-Yad