Everliving and sweeping advance

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**foolishmortal**

I agree, which is why I cited a second supporting case, the res orb on a dead model working until the end of the phase

Automatically Appended Next Post:
where did we leave things with wiped out =/= destroyed? I know the majority of the context was clear. Did we find more exceptions or just the falling back one?

if wiped out = destroyed, this becomes a different discussion

Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and back to work. Good luck all

**Yad**

foolishmortal wrote:I agree, which is why I cited a second supporting case, the res orb on a dead model working until the end of the phase

Automatically Appended Next Post:
where did we leave things with wiped out =/= destroyed? I know the majority of the context was clear. Did we find more exceptions or just the falling back one?

if wiped out = destroyed, this becomes a different discussion

Right, thanks for the reminder I forgot about that. That FAQ entry though was a very narrow question with a very specific answer. It may be a bit of a stretch to infer it applying in a broader sense.

What's interesting to me is that RP counters get removed after Fall Back moves are made. So if I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and don't get swept then I loose the counters. If I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and get swept I loose my RP counters/tokens, but not my EL counter/token (no Fall Back move can be made).

-Yad

**kirsanth**

Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

**rigeld2**

Yad wrote:What's interesting to me is that RP counters get removed after Fall Back moves are made. So if I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and don't get swept then I loose the counters. If I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and get swept I loose my RP counters/tokens, but not my EL counter/token (no Fall Back move can be made).

Falling back doesn't clear EL tokens.

**Yad**

kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

-Yad

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yad wrote:What's interesting to me is that RP counters get removed after Fall Back moves are made. So if I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and don't get swept then I loose the counters. If I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and get swept I loose my RP counters/tokens, but not my EL counter/token (no Fall Back move can be made).

Falling back doesn't clear EL tokens.

That was going to be my next question.

-Yad

**kirsanth**

Yad wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

Wait a second. You are actually given a time reference in this case and you are not using it?

The fall back moves are completed when the unit is destroyed.
After that, remove the tokens.

**nosferatu1001**

Unit A contains an EL model
You sweeping advance unit A, destroying it
You then try to roll for EL, which would rescue Unit A from destruction.

This is against the rules for SA. Done.

**foolishmortal**

I'm not yet convinced that when swept, a model with EL places an EL counter. "removed as casualty" vs "destroyed"

**kirsanth**

foolishmortal wrote:I'm not yet convinced that when swept, a model with EL places an EL counter. "removed as casualty" vs "destroyed"

The idea being, there are ways the situation can occur where the token is placed then the unit is swept.

It just does not matter.

**Icemyn**

foolishmortal wrote:I'm not yet convinced that when swept, a model with EL places an EL counter. "removed as casualty" vs "destroyed"

It doesnt place a counter. But then again no one here is arguing that you do.

**rigeld2**

foolishmortal wrote:I'm not yet convinced that when swept, a model with EL places an EL counter. "removed as casualty" vs "destroyed"

Model is killed by a chainsword at init 4. EL counter placed.
Necrons lose assault (surprised?) and are swept.

That's the premise of the discussion right now.

**foolishmortal**

Yes, I agree. I agreed and seconded it back on page 10 when Icemyn suggested we re-focus. I was responding too quickly to nos without thinking about the implications of accidentally sidetracking the conversation

**Icemyn**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Unit A contains an EL model
You sweeping advance unit A, destroying it
You then try to roll for EL, which would rescue Unit A from destruction.

This is against the rules for SA. Done.

I think you have posted this exact thing several times.
"At this stage" I think it literally amounts to nothing more than spamming.

On a serious Note what is being argued is the timing and either you don't
understand that or you believe being angrier wins the argument.

I don't think that this thread is ever going to reach a consensus personally.

On Topic: The "at this stage" line introduces doubt of how long the SA rule applies,
several people believe SA is permanent, but the wording allows for a different read.
Ignoring that doesn't mean it isn't there.

**Yad**

kirsanth wrote:
Yad wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

Wait a second. You are actually given a time reference in this case and you are not using it?

The fall back moves are completed when the unit is destroyed.
After that, remove the tokens.

??

The actual rules are, "If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.".

And in the next paragraph, "At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves have been made, roll a D6..." Fall back moves are certainly not considered 'made' when a unit is destroyed. If I'm swept, then the only thing I've done is fail my Morale check. I have not rolled the dice to see how far I fall back. I have not picked up my models and made the fall back move.

-Yad

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
Yad wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

Wait a second. You are actually given a time reference in this case and you are not using it?

The fall back moves are completed when the unit is destroyed.
After that, remove the tokens.

??

The actual rules are, "If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.".

And in the next paragraph, "At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves have been made, roll a D6..." Fall back moves are certainly not considered 'made' when a unit is destroyed. If I'm swept, then the only thing I've done is fail my Morale check. I have not rolled the dice to see how far I fall back. I have not picked up my models and made the fall back move.

Am I missing the order of operation here? That you:

1.) Determine the loser of the Assault.
2.) Make a Morale Check (with the appropriate modifiers)
3.) If you fail, check to see if the opposing unit is allowed to make a Sweeping Advance.
4.) If the opposing unit fails to Sweep, make your fall back move (roll dice and move distance indicated).
5.) End of Assault Phase, roll of RP/EL (whichever is appropriate)

-Yad

**kirsanth**

They made a fall back move, and were destroyed.

**Yad**

Yad wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
Yad wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

Wait a second. You are actually given a time reference in this case and you are not using it?

The fall back moves are completed when the unit is destroyed.
After that, remove the tokens.

??

The actual rules are, "If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.".

And in the next paragraph, "At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves have been made, roll a D6..." Fall back moves are certainly not considered 'made' when a unit is destroyed. If I'm swept, then the only thing I've done is fail my Morale check. I have not rolled the dice to see how far I fall back. I have not picked up my models and made the fall back move.

-Yad

Am I missing the order of operation here? That you:

1.) Determine the loser of the Assault.
2.) Make a Morale Check (with the appropriate modifiers)
3.) If you fail, check to see if the opposing unit is allowed to make a Sweeping Advance.
4.) If the opposing unit fails to Sweep, make your fall back move (roll dice and move distance indicated).
5.) End of Assault Phase, roll of RP/EL (whichever is appropriate)

-Yad

**rigeld2**

You make the morale check and immediately move if you fail. After morale checks, you check to sweep.

So RAW you should move the models, then roll to sweep - but it's far easier to resolve the sweep first.

**Yad**

rigeld2 wrote:You make the morale check and immediately move if you fail. After morale checks, you check to sweep.

So RAW you should move the models, then roll to sweep - but it's far easier to resolve the sweep first.

So my group has been doing this bit wrong then (as a matter of convenience I guess). It strikes me as a waste of time to move the models only to have to pull them when a successful Sweep occurs. In the last tourney I played in it wasn't even played that way. Thanks for the clarification, time for me to give another read to the Fall Back section.

-Yad

**nosferatu1001**

No, THAT is spamming. Hideous, hideous spamming

Icemyn - I understand that you are attempting to bring timing into it. I, unlike you, have been here since page 1. However timing is entirely irrelevant here - you are either rescuing the unit or you are not. Clearly, as in there is no ambiguity here, (if you have ANY understanding of English) turning a unit from a destroyed state into a non-destroyed state IS rescuing the unit

When something new turns up, and it hasnt, then rpeeating the correct answer is entirely appropriate. As is pointing people to the first 15 pages, where EVERY. SINGLE. ARGUMENT has been tried and discounted.

**foolishmortal**

look at BRB p 39 Check Morale

"Units that lose a close combat must take a Morale
check to hold their ground, with a penalty depending
on how severe the defeat was (see page 44). If they
pass, the unit fights on - the combat is effectively
drawn and no further account is made of the unit's
defeat (apart from some good-natured taunting by the
winer ). If they fail, they must abandon the fight and
will fall back."

and p 40

"Both the unit falling back and the winnmg unit roll a
D6 and add their Initiative value to the result ."

the unit that failed its morale test is falling back long before it moves 2d6 inches

**Yad**

foolishmortal wrote:look at BRB p 39 Check Morale

"Units that lose a close combat must take a Morale
check to hold their ground, with a penalty depending
on how severe the defeat was (see page 44). If they
pass, the unit fights on - the combat is effectively
drawn and no further account is made of the unit's
defeat (apart from some good-natured taunting by the
winer ). If they fail, they must abandon the fight and
will fall back."

and p 40

"Both the unit falling back and the winnmg unit roll a
D6 and add their Initiative value to the result ."

the unit that failed its morale test is falling back long before it moves 2d6 inches

So one should not take a literal meaning to the part in the RP rules that, "At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves* have been made, roll a D6..." Rather, a fall back encompasses both the Sweeping Advance and the actual roll to determine how far the unit moves.

*Bold for emphasis

-Yad

**kirsanth**

It still works, and is important in multiple combats.

**Icemyn**

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, THAT is spamming. Hideous, hideous spamming

Icemyn - I understand that you are attempting to bring timing into it. I, unlike you, have been here since page 1. However timing is entirely irrelevant here - you are either rescuing the unit or you are not. Clearly, as in there is no ambiguity here, (if you have ANY understanding of English) turning a unit from a destroyed state into a non-destroyed state IS rescuing the unit

When something new turns up, and it hasnt, then rpeeating the correct answer is entirely appropriate. As is pointing people to the first 15 pages, where EVERY. SINGLE. ARGUMENT has been tried and discounted.

Again the rule reads Rescued at this stage .
That says nothing about rescuing it later stages, but I guess my english isn't as good as yours. Apparently.

So yes Nos I am rescuing the unit, just not during SA which RAW is the only time it applies.
However, that is just one way of reading it, as mentioned 5 or so pages ago.

Additionally, having a post on every page since page 1, doesn't mean I haven't been here or have not read it, it just means I didnt have the same opinion to regurgitate every page along the way.

**kirsanth**

Icemyn wrote:That says nothing about rescuing it later stages

The idiom works better as an idiom. The game is broken into phases and the stage is a table.

**Icemyn**

kirsanth wrote:
Icemyn wrote:That says nothing about rescuing it later stages
The idiom works better as an idiom. The game is broken into phases and the stage is a table.

No arguments, I have come to agree that EL will not work, I disagree with Nos's reasons for declaring finality.
I believe they cant come back due to the word destroyed and its lack of BRB definition.

**Lordhat**

Monster Rain wrote:The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone.

I guess it's not clear because I don't see anything in the FAQ that specifies that EL can override SA. Until there's a ruling that specifically tells us that RP or EL work after a SA, then they don't.

**BeRzErKeR**

So I think at this point we've basically come to the consensus that EL does not work against SA, even if some disagree with others about exactly WHY.

Is that about right?

**Happyjew**

I think we are at the point, where we've all agreed that if the model is removed at the SA step, it does not get EL. I believe the argument is now if you still get the EL if the model was "killed" earlier in the phase.

**Monster Rain**

Lordhat wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone.

I guess it's not clear because I don't see anything in the FAQ that specifies that EL can override SA. Until there's a ruling that specifically tells us that RP or EL work after a SA, then they don't.

If the model dies to a SA, you're right.

If he dies before the SA happens, and he isn't destroyed by the SA, you follow the rules for EL in accordance with the FAQ.

**Lordhat**

Monster Rain wrote:
Lordhat wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone.

I guess it's not clear because I don't see anything in the FAQ that specifies that EL can override SA. Until there's a ruling that specifically tells us that RP or EL work after a SA, then they don't.

If the model dies to a SA, you're right.

If he dies before the SA happens, and he isn't destroyed by the SA, you follow the rules for EL in accordance with the FAQ.

I disagree, for all the reasons pointed out earlier in the thread, like a thousand times already. Here's to hoping GW puts out an FAQ fairly soon.