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Lordhat wrote:I disagree, for all the reasons pointed out earlier in the thread, like a thousand times already. Here's to hoping GW puts out an FAQ fairly soon.

Yeah, but repeating things doesn't make them correct, regardless of excessive capitalization and increasing rudeness. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, since we'll never play each other most likely, but I still think I have a reasonable argument.

Especially since, in re-reading the EL rules, the models with EL has been removed as a casualty and a token has been placed.. Models that have been removed as casualties aren't still part of a unit, are they?

Yes, and the unit was destroyed.

Monster Rain wrote:Models that have been removed as casualties aren't still part of a unit, are they?

Generally I agree with this statement, and in the case of IC's with EL it gets a little foggy (though I believe the rules still apply equally), but as it stands I tend to think that WG are indeed a precedent for the RC, and the Court members become part of the units they are assigned to in all aspects of the rules. If the EL marker resolves, then you don't get a KP for the unit that was swept, therefor the model RaaC still 'belongs' to the unit, yes?

In general this is all GW's fault for not specifying whether RC members function in the same way as WG. The FAQ clears up what happens in general when the unit an EL model is a part of is completely removed from the board. SA is a specific case with a very strict requirement set forth to negate it. As always Specific > General.

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, and the unit was destroyed.

You say again, somehow thinking repeating it makes it true.

Lordhat wrote:In general this is all GW's fault for not specifying whether RC members function in the same way as WG. The FAQ clears up what happens in general when the unit an EL model is a part of is completely removed from the board. SA is a specific case with a very strict requirement set forth to negate it. As always Specific > General.

I guess the fundamental impasse here is that I don't consider the EL model having been destroyed by an SA, since it had been removed as a casualty before it happened. You see where I'm coming from?

Monster Rain wrote:

I guess the fundamental impasse here is that I don't consider the EL model having been destroyed by an SA, since it had been removed as a casualty before it happened. You see where I'm coming from?

I do. Your stance does make sense, and I would agree with you if SA ever mentioned models instead of the unit. This is the fundamental reason why I'm iffy about IC's with EL, as their coming back (after having been struck down in assault before SA) wouldn't deny the KP of the unit. In much the same way that a sponson on a tank can't be repaired simply because it was destroyed before the tank was, I don't believe that EL should be able to resurrect a (non-independent) character after it's unit is swept. An RC member joined to warriors or immortals could still claim objectives, deny the KP and other various things that troops can do. SA is supposed to be final and decisive, hence the very tight restrictions on reversing it. IMO EL does not meet these restrictions.

Monster Rain wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, and the unit was destroyed.

You say again, somehow thinking repeating it makes it true.

So, yet again, you are ignoring the Res Orb FAQ which states that yes, a downed model is STILL part of their unit. Which is why you are wrong. Again.

We may have reached a point where we can at least agree on what we disagree about. Correct me if I mess this up.

The NO position says that the model with EL may not come back as it was part of a unit that was swept and EL makes no specific provision to counter SA.

The PRO position says that the model with EL may come back since the instructions for SA have been completed, but no provision is made in SA to remove an EL counter and the effects of SA are finished resolving before the rules attached to the EL counter.

I think there should be a 3rd option. That only ICs can roll for EL if they were an EL token at the time of the SA, as they can be a unit on their own.

copper.talos wrote:I think there should be a 3rd option. That only ICs can roll for EL if they were an EL token at the time of the SA, as they can be a unit on their own.

we did consider this, but it seemed to be shot down. The dead IC is still part of the unit it had joined. It uses the 4+ res orb roll till the end of the phase even if it did not itself carry the res orb. If returned, it must be returned in coherency with the previously joined unit. etc, etc. Thus the distinction between dead IC with EL and dead Character with EL seemed to be moot for this discussion.

Also, to clarify, IMO at no time does a model become a counter.

copper.talos wrote:I think there should be a 3rd option. That only ICs can roll for EL if they were an EL token at the time of the SA, as they can be a unit on their own.

Irrelevant to the question, as the IC was NOT a unit by itself when it got swept - it was part of the unit that got swept. 100% incontestably so.

I agree that it is not necessarily relevant to the question at hand, but I disagree that it is 100% incontestable. I believe it is part of the unit, but only because I have weighed the arguments and precedents brought forth by each side. I find the "IC is it's own unit" position lacking, not non-existent.

You cannot contest it. Firstly you have permissive ruleset - you were a member of the unit, nothing says you are not a member of the unit any longer, so you ARE. Secondly there is the FAQ which AGAIN states you are a member of the unit.

There is not a single shred of evidence *against*

@foolishmortal
My point of view is that at the time of SA the unit thats get caught is composed only by the models at the time. Counters/tokens/markers etc have specific rules on how they interract with the game. They don't inherit any rules.

The only reason that EL cannot return a cryptek back after the unit he was joined to died in SA, is that although he should be able to roll for EL, that would mean the same unit that was caught in a SA will reform. The EL token of an IC won't reform the unit caught in SA, it will form a different unit.

The FAQ:
Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes.

What is the "model" that the faq is talking about? A Lord or an Overlord? Did some members survive from the unit or was it part of Royal Court and everyone died? In the end this faq is a specific answer to a specific question, it can't be used to make a ruling that an EL counter is part of the unit.

I can contest it. Not very well, which is why we agree on our final decisions. A six year old cannot effectively or conclusively contest a tug of war contest with an average healthy adult. None the less, there is someone on the other end of the rope.

If you look back in the thread, you will see me raise questions and cite examples in favor the dead IC not being part of the unit it had been joined to. You will also see others, yourself included, present strong, logical reasons for the IC to be still part of the unit for these purposes. You will then see me agree with the presented logic and arguments and concede the point. While I conceded the point, I am not (nor would I want to be) any sort of tyrannical spokesperson. Others are free to decide for themselves, then concede or continue arguing. You can tell they are contesting it, because they are contesting it.

In reponse to above some use of the word save and rescued and whether a model can come back after SA.

I am saying the order is like this:

Model A has EL.
Unit is in close combat.
Unit is swept and wiped out.
SA: unit and all models have been destroyed! SA is done!
FAQ: Wiped out? Place an EL token.
All other combats are fought,
consolidation moves, fall back moves etc.
Now roll for EL and see if Model A comes back.

The language here is "saved". What if I drop a vase and it is smashed on the floor. If I catch it and rescue it before it hits the ground I have saved it. If it falls to the floor and is destroyed, and later I glue it back together, have I have not saved from being smashed.

If SA destroys a unit and all models are dead, then at the end of the phase there's a token so I make the roll and I bring one back. EL did not save it. EL brought it back. Saving is preventing destruction.

No special rule prevent the destruction or saved the model, instead EL brings a model back which is not saving it.

Copper - it doesnt matter if it were a lord or overlord: THEY are still part of the unit, because it is HIS UNIT still

And it isnt *just* being used to rule it - the basic premise of the ruleset also does so. Its just the FAQ is the easiest way to point this fact out.

Your point of view is demonstrably wrong and against the rules

@foolishmortal
I am not trying to convince you that this is the correct way to play it, I am only proposing a 3rd option in your earlier post.

copper.talos wrote:@foolishmortal
I am not trying to convince you that this is the correct way to play it, I am only proposing a 3rd option in your earlier post.

That is fair enough. I did welcome differing oppinions in my NO/PRO summery.

How would you phrase this 3rd option in terms of a NO or PRO position? Do you think it merits equal weight as the other two? I do not, but would be willing to take a third look.

Naming is difficult. Maybe No/Pro/Exception

I think how each case weights depends on who looks at it. We all have our own opinions and gaming experiences. They are certainly not the same for everyone.

And since I can see that atleast someone is willing to have a civilised argumental dialogue, lets take this case:
A unit of immortals with a Lord carrying an orb and an attached overlord get shot and only one immortal stays alive, then it get hit by a lash of submision and the immortal is forced to move 12" away, what happens to the EL/RP counters?

They don't move, but if they stand up they do so in coherency with the one model.

Actually the RP counters "move" along with the unit, while the EL do not. Check the difference in the wording:
RP:"... place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit..."
EL:" ... Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play...."

But the point is that EL counters don't move with the unit. Is there something that can argue against that?

Placing them next to the unit doesn't mean they move with the unit.

Why does it matter - do you want to stand the EL models up out of coherency? Thatd break the EL rules.

copper.talos wrote:Actually the RP counters "move" along with the unit, while the EL do not. Check the difference in the wording:
RP:"... place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit..."
EL:" ... Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play...."

But the point is that EL counters don't move with the unit. Is there something that can argue against that?

I agree that the EL counter is not moved, but the model is still place in coherency with the one immortal per the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph of the EL rules on p29

Since RP is irrelevant to this I won't go further on that matter. And, no I don't want to place models out of coherency.

Please bear with me and let me take it one step further, Lets say that the last immortal gets shot again and dies. Where will the Overlord be placed if he succeeds his EL roll?

copper.talos wrote:
Let me take it one step further, Lets say that the last immortal gets shot again and dies. Where will the Overlord be placed if he succeeds his EL roll?

Then, per the EL rules, it is placed within 3" of the EL counter, about 12" away from where the last immortal died.

edit: I think you see a contradiction where none exists. There are plenty of contradictions in the 40k rules. We don't need to unnecessarily make extra ones.

Yeah, I'm not seein any unclear rules with that.

Ok, back to the summery. We seem to be at

The NO position says that the model with EL may not come back as it was part of a unit that was swept and EL makes no specific provision to counter SA.

The PRO position says that the model with EL may come back since the instructions for SA have been completed, but no provision is made in SA to remove an EL counter and the effects of SA are finished resolving before the rules attached to the EL counter.

There are possible EXCEPTIONS to the above general cases, but they accurately describe the current difference of opinion.

How is that?

I agree completely. But if you consider it is part of the unit, then his unit did move 12" away. What is the overlord doing back there? There are no rules on how the counter acts in such an occasion, so making it part of the unit, it should follow all the rules as any other part of that unit. It's either part of the unit all the way or not. To further my point, If that last immortal got pinned and then died, would the Overlod get up as pinned 12" away? I don't think so, the overlord would return in a normal condition, independent of the status/condition of the unit he was joined to earlier.

So to summarize, my opinion is that the EL counter is not part of the unit. It just stands there waiting for the EL. So for the SA argument, If the Overlord dies and afterwards his unit is caught in SA, then the EL counter placed in a location on the table is not a sufficient reason for him not to form his own unit later.

edit: it took me a while to write the answer and I didn't see that last post. Anyway, I am happy with the 3 options. It covers all the different arguable angles.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment, foolishmortal.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
Unit is swept and wiped out.
SA: unit and all models have been destroyed! SA is done!
FAQ: Wiped out? Place an EL token.
All other combats are fought,
consolidation moves, fall back moves etc.
Now roll for EL and see if Model A comes back.

Except, SA doesn't "wipe out" the unit. SA destroys the unit, which is subsequently immediately removed. If SA said the unit is wiped out, I would agree, that EL would get the roll.