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We've established that "destroy" can mean he same thing as "wiped out". You need to let that line of reasoning go.

Monster Rain wrote:We've established that "destroy" can mean he same thing as "wiped out". You need to let that line of reasoning go.

No, you have found that "wiped out" can mean the same thing as destroy. You havent found the converse.

Additionally - found the FAQ yet, that says they are members of the same unit?

I like it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:We've established that "destroy" can mean he same thing as "wiped out". You need to let that line of reasoning go.

No, you have found that "wiped out" can mean the same thing as destroy. You havent found the converse.

Additionally - found the FAQ yet, that says they are members of the same unit?

This would mean you agree with the FAQ. A unit that is destroyed gets to place a EL token and roll to come back. I really believe the FAQ was intended to simplify this entire argument and if you take it at the value of how broadly it is stated, it does.

Unless you think somehow you can roll for EL and not get to come back - which has no precedent anywhere. Models in a wiped out unit get to roll for EL.

Why don't they just say "EL can prevent SA" or in the EL rules "SA does not prevent EL"? Because if the EL rule specifically stated it SA doesn't effect it, that would mean the model doesn't "die", doesn't get "destroyed" and remains in combat which is not the intention of EL at all.

It is important to the workings of the EL rule that the model is destroyed and combat with its unit is over, consolidation moves are made and all combat is finished then EL brings the model back. Any other wording would allow models to keep fighting which is not what EL is supposed to do.

Nemesor Dave wrote:It is important to the workings of the EL rule that the model is destroyed and combat with its unit is over, consolidation moves are made and all combat is finished then EL brings the model back. Any other wording would allow models to keep fighting which is not what EL is supposed to do.

Exactly.

The EL model has already been removed as a casualty, and stays that way until everything is resolved and the EL roll is made at the end of the assault phase. The manner of the destruction of the rest of the squad is irrelevant.

Potentially random question:

If dead models are not part of a unit, why would they trigger morale checks?
That only happens when its models are lost, and folk are saying they are not part once dead.

It also solves the KP issue, since it seems everyone agrees the character was completely destroyed.

kirsanth wrote:Potentially random question:

If dead models are not part of a unit, why would they trigger morale checks?
That only happens when its models are lost, and folk are saying they are not part once dead.

The morale check is triggered by the act of those models dying, not whether or not they are still part of the unit after the fact.

kirsanth wrote:It also solves the KP issue, since it seems everyone agrees the character was completely destroyed.

The KP issue is solved when the model reanimates, or doesn't.

Monster Rain wrote:The morale check is triggered by the act of those models dying, not whether or not they are still part of the unit after the fact.

Not sure it reads that way. If the dead models are not "its" (the unit's) models then they do not trigger anything.

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:It also solves the KP issue, since it seems everyone agrees the character was completely destroyed.

The KP issue is solved when the model reanimates, or doesn't.

If the unit is destroyed, it gives a KP.
If you are saying that the destruction is enough for SA, it is enough for VP.
The condition is the same.

Nemesor Dave wrote:This would mean you agree with the FAQ. A unit that is destroyed gets to place a EL token and roll to come back. I really believe the FAQ was intended to simplify this entire argument and if you take it at the value of how broadly it is stated, it does.

Oh for...

No, it means you still dont understand what "wiped out" means. Again. Or that I was referring to the res orb faq. Again.

Destroyed is not the same as wiped out, but wiped out can be encompassed by destroyed. You are commiting yet another logical fallacy, A-> B does not mean that B-> A

Again: Sweeping Advance requires you to specify that you work against it, otherwise you do not.

EL does not specify that you can save an EL model from Sweeping Advance, meaning you cannot. Thats it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Unless you think somehow you can roll for EL and not get to come back - which has no precedent anywhere. Models in a wiped out unit get to roll for EL.

Brilliant! Now that means exactly jack all when it comes to a unit destroyed by sweeping advance, because (shock! horror! this must come as such a surprise!=) the FAQ deosnt say that a) this applies to "destroyed" and b) it still doesnt specify that it works against sweeping advance, as REQUIRED in the sweeping advance rules

Nemesor Dave wrote:Why don't they just say "EL can prevent SA" or in the EL rules "SA does not prevent EL"? Because if the EL rule specifically stated it SA doesn't effect it, that would mean the model doesn't "die", doesn't get "destroyed" and remains in combat which is not the intention of EL at all.

So what youre saying is that the EL rule doesnt specify it works against SA. Yet apparently it SHOULD work against SA, despite the fact it cannot because, as you have said - it doesnt specify it does.

Doublethink is great, isnt it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:It is important to the workings of the EL rule that the model is destroyed and combat with its unit is over, consolidation moves are made and all combat is finished then EL brings the model back. Any other wording would allow models to keep fighting which is not what EL is supposed to do.

And you know this how? Or are you just, like MR, making anything up that could possibly be used to justify your position, actual rules be damned?

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The morale check is triggered by the act of those models dying, not whether or not they are still part of the unit after the fact.

Not sure it reads that way. If the dead models are not "its" (the unit's) models then they do not trigger anything.

They were part of the unit at the time that they died. That's why they trigger the morale check.

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:It also solves the KP issue, since it seems everyone agrees the character was completely destroyed.

The KP issue is solved when the model reanimates, or doesn't.

If the unit is destroyed, it gives a KP.
If you are saying that the destruction is enough for SA, it is enough for VP.
The condition is the same.

No, because the EL model still has an opportunity to come back. It has been "removed as a casualty" but is waiting for the chance to reanimate which it can do even after its unit has been destroyed. You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Monster Rain wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:It is important to the workings of the EL rule that the model is destroyed and combat with its unit is over, consolidation moves are made and all combat is finished then EL brings the model back. Any other wording would allow models to keep fighting which is not what EL is supposed to do.

Exactly.

The EL model has already been removed as a casualty, and stays that way until everything is resolved and the EL roll is made at the end of the assault phase. The manner of the destruction of the rest of the squad is irrelevant.

Except that the EL model is a member of the unit (BRB definition of a unit AND the FAQ, which you consistently ignore as it destroys your argument) and the unit is destroyed (Sweeping Advance) and EL does not *specify* it works to SAVE or RESCUE the EL model (a member of the unit, saving a member of the unit saves the unit) therefore it doesnt.

This works exactly how it has worked since WBB as well. They have the same trigger (RaaC) use a similar book keeping mechanic (laid models / counters) and both lack any permission to work against SA. And guess what? WBB has never worked against SA. Ever. As in, the canonical example of a special rule that did not work was WBB.

Given you cannot find a single difference between WBB and EL *in relation to SA, before you spout irrelevancies again* it should give you SOME clue how the rule works.

Yes, I'm clutching at straws by drawing your attention to a similar rule, but given as everything else has been ignored by you I thought I would give you something else you can ignore

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Then it [the unit] was not destroyed immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The morale check is triggered by the act of those models dying, not whether or not they are still part of the unit after the fact.

Not sure it reads that way. If the dead models are not "its" (the unit's) models then they do not trigger anything.

They were part of the unit at the time that they died. That's why they trigger the morale check.

Again though, that is not what it actually states.

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Then it [the unit] was not destroyed immediately.

But it was.

Everything happened as it should. The only difference is that the EL model has the chance to come back.

I just realized something that I've been overlooking, and haven't been explicit enough about. From here on out, when I say "model with EL" I'm talking about Independent Characters, not attached Crypteks. They are very clearly part of the squad at all times.

kirsanth wrote:They were part of the unit at the time that they died. That's why they trigger the morale check.

Again though, that is not what it actually states.

So are ICs. Page 48 and 49. Youve been shown this a dozen times now.

An IC only has permission to leave a unit in the movement phase. For your argument to have any benefit whatsoever you MUST find permission to leave a unit in the assault phase.

Oh, and before you say - but the units dead! Irrelevant. Remember page 49. Normal member of the unit. Otherwise presumably you dont roll for losing combat if just the IC is left?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh for...

No, it means you still dont understand what "wiped out" means. Again. Or that I was referring to the res orb faq. Again.

Destroyed is not the same as wiped out, but wiped out can be encompassed by destroyed. You are commiting yet another logical fallacy, A-> B does not mean that B-> A

Are you talking about english? A destroyed unit is not wiped out? Yes it is. A wiped out unit is not destroyed? Yes it is. They mean the same thing!

Show me in the rule book where "wiped out" is even used. The FAQ uses "wiped out" so they won't be mistaken for some other "all removed as a casualty", "removed from play", "destroyed" or other description used for a specific condition. They use wiped out for what it means in English. All of the above.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
EL does not specify that you can save an EL model from Sweeping Advance, meaning you cannot. Thats it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Unless you think somehow you can roll for EL and not get to come back - which has no precedent anywhere. Models in a wiped out unit get to roll for EL.

Brilliant! Now that means exactly jack all when it comes to a unit destroyed by sweeping advance, because (shock! horror! this must come as such a surprise!=) the FAQ deosnt say that a) this applies to "destroyed" and b) it still doesnt specify that it works against sweeping advance, as REQUIRED in the sweeping advance rules

Nemesor Dave wrote:Why don't they just say "EL can prevent SA" or in the EL rules "SA does not prevent EL"? Because if the EL rule specifically stated it SA doesn't effect it, that would mean the model doesn't "die", doesn't get "destroyed" and remains in combat which is not the intention of EL at all.

So what youre saying is that the EL rule doesnt specify it works against SA. Yet apparently it SHOULD work against SA, despite the fact it cannot because, as you have said - it doesnt specify it does.

Doublethink is great, isnt it.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me or did you not read any of my other posts? EL doesn't have to work against SA. SA destroys the unit, its wiped out and SA is done! EL doesn't prevent or save the model from SA. Its the distinction between saving something and bringing it back. SA works just fine. Then EL brings the model back, no conflict there at all.

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Then it [the unit] was not destroyed immediately.

But it was.

Everything happened as it should. The only difference is that the EL model has the chance to come back.

The only difference is that you are not allowed to rescue that unit. Which is what "undestroying" something is. Rescuing it from destruction. Unless you are again going to say it is destroyed. Which gives VP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote: Then EL brings the model back, no conflict there at all.

See above, re: Rescue.

kirsanth wrote: The only difference is that you are not allowed to rescue that unit. Which is what "undestroying" something is. Rescuing it from destruction. Unless you are again going to say it is destroyed. Which gives VP.

I don't think you read the whole post to which you are responding. There was some important information there. I'm talking about IC's, not attached Royal Court members.

ICs that are members of a unit, or this is basically irrelevant.

kirsanth wrote:ICs that are members of a unit, or this is basically irrelevant.

Not really, but I don't want to go back over this again.

Nemesor Dave wrote: Show me in the rule book where "wiped out" is even used.

Page 41, last sentence under 'Assault Results', "Remember that winning units can only sweeping advance if all the units they were locked with fall back or are wiped out in the fight."

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:ICs that are members of a unit, or this is basically irrelevant.

Not really, but I don't want to go back over this again.

True enough. I was thinking that the SA would not happen if the IC died, but it would if it just lost.
Oops.

Monster Rain wrote:I don't think you read the whole post to which you are responding. There was some important information there. I'm talking about IC's, not attached Royal Court members.

Are you talking about ICs that are joined to a unit at the start of the assault phase or ICs that were not a part of any unit?
Just want to be clear.

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Then it [the unit] was not destroyed immediately.

But it was.

Everything happened as it should. The only difference is that the EL model has the chance to come back.

The only difference is that you are not allowed to rescue that unit. Which is what "undestroying" something is. Rescuing it from destruction. Unless you are again going to say it is destroyed. Which gives VP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote: Then EL brings the model back, no conflict there at all.

See above, re: Rescue.

This is circular logic. You place a counter when the model is killed. If you bring it back, the model was never killed. Oh noooos, that means I could not have placed a counter in the first place. Logic implodes.

If you're saying you should get a KP or VP for a IC that dies but then is brought back with EL... start a new thread.

The point is up that way.

You missed it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

This is circular logic. You place a counter when the model is killed. If you bring it back, the model was never killed. Oh noooos, that means I could not have placed a counter in the first place. Logic implodes.

If you're saying you should get a KP or VP for a IC that dies but then is brought back with EL... start a new thread.

I don't think he's saying that.

What he's saying, if I understand it right, is that you get VP for any unit that's destroyed.

SA destroys the unit.

But if an attached IC uses EL to come back from a sweeping advance. . . the unit isn't destroyed. Which means you don't get VP, right?

But you destroyed the unit. Which gives you VP. . .

BeRzErKeR wrote:What he's saying, if I understand it right

Pretty much.

I am mostly trying to point out logical issues, and some illogical ones.

I really, really understand what the folks disagreeing with me say, and I think I get a fair amount of why they say it.

It's just that they are wrong.

time wizard wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote: Show me in the rule book where "wiped out" is even used.

Page 41, last sentence under 'Assault Results', "Remember that winning units can only sweeping advance if all the units they were locked with fall back or are wiped out in the fight."

Thanks for this, but one use is hardly proof that "wiped out" has a special meaning in game terms. It still means the same thing as destroyed.

Wiped out is destroyed, but Destroyed is not wiped out.
Think of it this way, all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

time wizard wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I don't think you read the whole post to which you are responding. There was some important information there. I'm talking about IC's, not attached Royal Court members.

Are you talking about ICs that are joined to a unit at the start of the assault phase or ICs that were not a part of any unit?
Just want to be clear.

ICs that are joined to a unit, killed in the assault, and their unit is destroyed by a SA.

MR - meaning they are members of the unit. Page 49. Necron Res Orb FAQ. Meaning you have to destroy them with SA. Meaning that trying to rescue them by rolling EL is indeed rescuing them

Nemesor Dave - you apparently dont get the use of sets or the logical fallacy you are making. You are not making a new argument, your argument was debunked 8+ pages ago