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Hazardous Harry wrote:

Fair enough, so if we accept that Grey Knights can be physically corrupted (as opposed to mentally) then we have to look at the evidence that suggests whether or not the Bloodtide physically drove the people affected to kill others, rather than mentally corrupting them. I still do not believe the Bloodtide in the codex refers to the same in the novel, simply because the symptoms and effects are so different. That and the peculiar nature of the novel's version would be worth mentioning in the codex if it was the case.

No clue what Novel you speak of. I am just using the data from the codex. It calls the entry "The bloodtide returns, I am unsure if this title simply refers to them waking it up or another write up I am unaware of. The statement from the write up would be
"A tide of gore washes though the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches"

Now this states it is a psychical tide that makes physical contact and transforms both people and objects upon contact. It also states that " once shielded the Knights waded though the goreshed.", Once more saying it is a wholly Psychical effect. It transformed anyone effected into something called a "Blood Ogre", which may have been something akin to a daemon host based upon the write up saying evey death brought more daemons. And No the Gray Knights would not have been immune to such an effect, the book clearly says what they are immune to and even "immune" is an incorrect word as they can be effected by something strong enough. Their souls simply can not become tainted.

Nothing listed in the codex's write up points to the Gray Knights having even a resistance to the type of threat the goreshed was.

Kanluwen wrote:
Not once is the term "Destroyer Hive" used on that page. The Life-Eater Virus is mentioned, but that is all.

Not once does 'Nurgle' appear in the preceding paragraph about an unnamed power of the warp reaching out and unleashing a supernatural disease, you want to claim that it's not Nurgle, too, while you're at it? Maybe Khorne did it?

And let's look at that mention, shall we?

"The Life Eater Virus was long gone.' and then goes into great detail about how this is not the life eater virus doing this. The entire previous paragraph is about an unnamed power in the warp, who reaches out and uses this as an experiment to be reused later on a greater scale.

The dead Astartes stand up and turn into plague marines (in vivid, oozing, detail). Of all the plagues of Nurgle, there's only one that does that. Better, what Decius turns into matches, very, very closely, the description of the physical manifestation of the Destroyer Hive that is unleashed on those Death Guard trapped in the Warp with Typhus.

Kanluwen wrote:
Your reference of track 11 is of Rubeo(an Ultramarines Librarian) speaking to an Imperial Army Soldier and then inspecting the bodies of refugees. The bodies with the mark of Nurgle turned into Plaguebearers, the rest of those slain by the Virus bombings were Plague Zombies.

You really need to go back and listen to it again if you're going to cite it.

Was listening to it as I wrote the thing. Played it back three times. The claim I was refuting was your insistence that Nurgle had nothing to do with what went on in Legion of One. Which, I think I can say was conclusively disproven, I'd say, since you have launched off in a new direction.

Oh, and, he was a Titan deck captain, rather than Imperial Army. (Collegia Titanicus dates from before the Heresy) The Imperial army soldier was the burned corpse Garro examines early on.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Can Grey Knights be forcibly turned against their will by the powers of Chaos? Debatable, but no evidence of it being done before.

Don't be ridiculous. Any chaos power that affects them is 'against their will' unless you believe they like being blasted with fire or turned into spawn?

They can be affected by Chaos powers. End. Of. Story. It's not up for debate, it happens, has happened, and will continue to happen.

Did (the bloodtide) affect the mind or the body? Depends entirely on whether it's the same entity from the novel, or a different cataclysm. There are certainly different symptoms.

Doesn't matter a damn. A Grey Knight's mind is protected, but very very far from invulnerable.

Could the Grey Knights be affected by it? DEBATABLE

Nope. Nice try though.



Oh yes, very mature.

In the Gk Omnibus,

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Can Grey Knights be forcibly turned against their will by the powers of Chaos? Debatable, but no evidence of it being done before.

Don't be ridiculous. Any chaos power that affects them is 'against their will' unless you believe they like being blasted with fire or turned into spawn?

They can be affected by Chaos powers. End. Of. Story. It's not up for debate, it happens, has happened, and will continue to happen.

The only thing here that happens, has happened and likely will continue to happen is you dodging my argument.

I did not say that Grey Knights could not be affected by the warp, I said there isn't much evidence to suggest that they can be forcibly turned, as in forced to attack their fellows.

Did (the bloodtide) affect the mind or the body? Depends entirely on whether it's the same entity from the novel, or a different cataclysm. There are certainly different symptoms.

Doesn't matter a damn. A Grey Knight's mind is protected, but very very far from invulnerable.

And again, you dodge the question. This is getting annoying.

Could the Grey Knights be affected by it? DEBATABLE

Nope. Nice try though.

Spoiler:

LOOKICANUSECAPLOCKSTOO

Oh yes, very mature.

You started it, mate.

Take a look at Hunterindarkness, he's got a good counter-argument and isn't resorting to cheap debate tactics to get his point across.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Fair enough, so if we accept that Grey Knights can be physically corrupted (as opposed to mentally) then we have to look at the evidence that suggests whether or not the Bloodtide physically drove the people affected to kill others, rather than mentally corrupting them. I still do not believe the Bloodtide in the codex refers to the same in the novel, simply because the symptoms and effects are so different. That and the peculiar nature of the novel's version would be worth mentioning in the codex if it was the case.

No clue what Novel you speak of. I am just using the data from the codex. It calls the entry "The bloodtide returns, I am unsure if this title simply refers to them waking it up or another write up I am unaware of. The statement from the write up would be
"A tide of gore washes though the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches"

Now this states it is a psychical tide that makes physical contact and transforms both people and objects upon contact. It also states that " once shielded the Knights waded though the goreshed.", Once more saying it is a wholly Psychical effect. It transformed anyone effected into something called a "Blood Ogre", which may have been something akin to a daemon host based upon the write up saying evey death brought more daemons. And No the Gray Knights would not have been immune to such an effect, the book clearly says what they are immune to and even "immune" is an incorrect word as they can be effected by something strong enough. Their souls simply can not become tainted.

Nothing listed in the codex's write up points to the Gray Knights having even a resistance to the type of threat the goreshed was.

Nice post, and I thank you for you mature stance throughout this thread.

Does the Codex really refer to those affected as Blood Ogres? If anyone has the GK codex on hand, I'd appreciate a quote. This definitely implies that the affected are so warped beyond recognition that it's a physical effect rather than a mental influence.

Hazardous Harry wrote: I said there isn't much evidence to suggest that they can be forcibly turned, as in forced to attack their fellows.

Relevance? What difference exists between a Sororitas and a Grey Knight, that would result in them being affected differently by the Bloodtide?

Answer: The Aegis and their Hexagrammic wards. Which are demonstrably limited in terms of protection.

Ergo, anything that can affect a regular human or Sororitas can also affect a Grey Knight. The only thing stopping it is their Hexagramic wards and the Aegis. It helps, but is a long measure short of complete protection.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote: I said there isn't much evidence to suggest that they can be forcibly turned, as in forced to attack their fellows.

Relevance?

It's relevant becuase we're discussing whether the Bloodtide, a warp based power that physically forced otherwise loyal citizens to kill each other, could force Grey Knights to do the same.

What difference exists between a Sororitas and a Grey Knight, that would result in them being affected differently by the Bloodtide?

Answer: The Aegis and their Hexagrammic wards. Which are demonstrably limited in terms of protection.

So aside from their talismans, psychic powers and lifelong training to deal with exactly these kinds of situations there's no difference between the SoB and the GK? Now, I'm as much a fan of the Adepta Sororitas as the next loyal imperial citizen, but I'll admit they are nowhere near the level of readiness when it comes to dealing with the warp as the Grey Knights are.

Ergo, anything that can affect a regular human or Sororitas can also affect a Grey Knight. The only thing stopping it is their Hexagramic wards and the Aegis. It helps, but is a long measure short of complete protection.

But on the other hand, there were sisters of battle that were resisting the effects of the Bloodtide entirely, without any sort of protection that was available to the Grey Knights. Anything that an unprotected Sister of Battle can withstand should be easy enough for a Grey Knight afforded the full protection of their equipment to handle.

But let's say it wasn't, let's say for some reason there really is no difference between a Sister and a Grey Knight (which is incorrect). Even if that were true, why on Holy Terra would the Grey Knights not be prepared for this sort of thing? Rather than an ad hoc massacre of the Sisters on-site, why wouldn't the Grey Knights already have such ointments readily available on their ships? All that was required was the blood of a few innocents and a few holy oils.

It's for both these reasons that the Bloodtide entry doesn't make sense, and is a bad piece of fluff.

Hazardous Harry wrote:So aside from their talismans, psychic powers and lifelong training

That lifetime of training and talismans are the Aegis and their Hexagrammic wards. There is nothing else differentiating them from a regular Astartes.

there were sisters of battle that were resisting the effects of the Bloodtide entirely.

Was there? Or were there just some that hadn't immediately succumbed? We don't know. Maybe some were immediately overcome, and some took weeks or months.

Anything that an unprotected Sister of Battle can withstand should be easy enough for a Grey Knight afforded the full protection of their equipment to handle.

Nope. Think of anything in real life. Some people live through car crashes, some dont. Some people get sick from an illness, some don't. Some people get shot and live, some people slip over and die. It'd be like walking into a plague zone where some people were un-infected, and not worrying about a hazmat suit because you'd already had your flu shot that year.

It doesn't matter if those people were unaffected, it's still dangerous.

why on Holy Terra would the Grey Knights not be prepared for this sort of thing? Rather than an ad hoc massacre of the Sisters on-site, why wouldn't the Grey Knights already have such ointments readily available on their ships? All that was required was the blood of a few innocents and a few holy oils.

Firstly, we can't assume that they will always carry everything they may possibly need. Maybe they had it on their ships but the time to get back up there and down again would have resulted in the entire planet being consumed, maybe it's only an ingredient in this one particular warding ritual, so they left it at home and brought double the amount of crystalised virgins tears, because you always need those things. Failing that, maybe it needed to be fresh blood.

Any one of those reasons could be the case, and probably more I can't think of, and none of them seem to me to be so ridiculous as to be worthy of scorn.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
I said there isn't much evidence to suggest that they can be forcibly turned, as in forced to attack their fellows.

Here there is however evidence that it Could happen. Page .7, states that a strong enough warp entity could indeed overcome a Grey Knights mind.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Does the Codex really refer to those affected as Blood Ogres? If anyone has the GK codex on hand, I'd appreciate a quote. This definitely implies that the affected are so warped beyond recognition that it's a physical effect rather than a mental influence.

Ah no sorry, seems I misquoted that name..it said "Orgies of Gore" not Ogres. It does talk about Bloodletters and implies the Goreshed does the physical transforming, not the tide itself. As that is what the GK needed to wade though. To me the fact It pointed out the goreshed corrupted places and objects seems to be the big damning point about it being psychical in nature.

An interesting thought is, at what point is a body or mind so deteriorated that it is no longer protected by mental training? It is not covered in the book or anything, just a thought this has brought up.We have things now that totally corrupt the mind, taking away skills and memory and motor control. What if, just theory now the Goreshed shattered the victims minds and left them more or less wide open to either possession or mind control on top of psychical changes?


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Hazardous Harry wrote:

But on the other hand, there were sisters of battle that were resisting the effects of the Bloodtide entirely, without any sort of protection that was available to the Grey Knights. Anything that an unprotected Sister of Battle can withstand should be easy enough for a Grey Knight afforded the full protection of their equipment to handle.

But let's say it wasn't, let's say for some reason there really is no difference between a Sister and a Grey Knight (which is incorrect). Even if that were true, why on Holy Terra would the Grey Knights not be prepared for this sort of thing? Rather than an ad hoc massacre of the Sisters on-site, why wouldn't the Grey Knights already have such ointments readily available on their ships? All that was required was the blood of a few innocents and a few holy oils.

It's for both these reasons that the Bloodtide entry doesn't make sense, and is a bad piece of fluff.

well it does not say really the sisters resisted at all. Only a handful still lived. They were losing, they could be alive because they had not been "hit" yet. We simply do not know. also the Grey Knights were prepared, its just that perpetration called for "Innocent" blood. Its most likly like many things with chaos, that they need to see it and know what they had to deal with, they needed real details in order to bring the correct wards and rites to bare. The GK have libraries of occult lure, some even the vilest black stuff that normally would corrupt a soul for even reading it. It never says why it need there blood and why they had to die. It could have needed the last drops of a dying "Innocent"

Now my theory is this whole fluff is not that bad, however it had one thought on the writers part but has been happened by GW's "No Sex Talk" stance. I think it required Virgin blood and was more then likely a dark rite or based off such a thing. Evil dark gods tend to like female virgin blood rites. Its just a rule, they are seen as more "Pure" then male virgins, symbols of purity and symbols are powerful things for craft work. I simply thing GW got squeamish and they left it very,very vague.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
well it does not say really the sisters resisted at all. Only a handful still lived. They were losing, they could be alive because they had not been "hit" yet. We simply do not know. also the Grey Knights were prepared, its just that perpetration called for "Innocent" blood. Its most likly like many things with chaos, that they need to see it and know what they had to deal with, they needed real details in order to bring the correct wards and rites to bare. The GK have libraries of occult lure, some even the vilest black stuff that normally would corrupt a soul for even reading it. It never says why it need there blood and why they had to die. It could have needed the last drops of a dying "Innocent"

Now my theory is this whole fluff is not that bad, however it had one thought on the writers part but has been happened by GW's "No Sex Talk" stance. I think it required Virgin blood and was more then likely a dark rite or based off such a thing. Evil dark gods tend to like female virgin blood rites. Its just a rule, they are seen as more "Pure" then male virgins, symbols of purity and symbols are powerful things for craft work. I simply thing GW got squeamish and they left it very,very vague.

As several have pointed out, the problem is the phrasing. Ward writes it in a way that implies, without stating, they turned on them and murdered them.

As far as killing all of them: minor detail but Sisters don't take vows of chastity, according to fluff. So maybe they had to kill them all to find one that worked?

(Which also raises the question of 'what if none of them were?' Very bad planning on GKs part. Also, the thing about dark powers liking female virgins is a myth, not only does it never say that in the books, most of them that care about the gender at all are not known for being too picky about what gender. They likely could have sacrificed one of their own with just as much effect.)

BaronIveagh wrote:
As several have pointed out, the problem is the phrasing. Ward writes it in a way that implies, without stating, they turned on them and murdered them.

As far as killing all of them: minor detail but Sisters don't take vows of chastity, according to fluff. So maybe they had to kill them all to find one that worked?

(Which also raises the question of 'what if none of them were?' Very bad planning on GKs part. Also, the thing about dark powers liking female virgins is a myth, not only does it never say that in the books, most of them that care about the gender at all are not known for being too picky about what gender. They likely could have sacrificed one of their own with just as much effect.)

The most current fluff on the sisters does in fact state they take such a vow( True this is the RPG side, but it is far more written about them the GW has since 2e). And even the old fluff strongly implies such. They are taken into the sisterhood as very young children, they do not interact with men or any outsiders, they spend all their time in training or in prayers and contemplation. They are Nuns and live in "Convents". They simply have no time or partners even if such a vow is not official.

I know it does not say that in books, however I took that from history and historic myth. Throughout the ages of man in almost every single culture that preformed blood sacrifices, a female virgin was the most "Pure and Innocent", as chaos tends to pull heavily from myths and such and dark sorcery pulls heavily from our own myths , it stands to reason that stays as well.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Of course there are servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the Bloodtide and other warp influences. But it's a major point in Grey Knight fluff that not a single one of them has ever fallen. There are plenty of recorded instances of Guardsmen, Marines and even Sisters of Battle being corrupted to by the warp. And that includes corruption both in a decision to fall, and a physical change that forces them to act against there brethren.

There is no such case for the Grey Knights, and given that the fluff says they're [u incorruptible[/u] (Read: And makes no distinction like the one you're making) there's nothing to suggest that they aren't immune to both a foul influence and a warping mutation that would normally seize control of their bodies.

You are, of course, completely and utterly wrong. Ever hear of the Grey Knights Omnibus? Or how about the Siege of Vraks? I illustrated the example from the Omnibus in the post right above yours, and in the Siege of Vraks a GUO managed to warp a GK.

I have read the Siege of Vraks (Good stuff). Did the Grey Knight in question turn his blade against his fellows?

Nice attempt at deflection from being dead wrong.

Also, if one of his "fellows's" death could be used to give them some huge advantage over the greater daemon/prince/whatever that they were fighting, then yes, current fluff says the Grey Knight would turn his blade against them.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
The most current fluff on the sisters does in fact state they take such a vow( True this is the RPG side, but it is far more written about them the GW has since 2e). And even the old fluff strongly implies such. They are taken into the sisterhood as very young children, they do not interact with men or any outsiders, they spend all their time in training or in prayers and contemplation. They are Nuns and live in "Convents". They simply have no time or partners even if such a vow is not official.

...

Depends on what you claim is more current: Cains Last Stand or Blood of Martyrs (Since I believe they were both published within a month of each other). Personally, I don't put much faith in Blood of Martyrs, just because it conflicts with not only other published books, but even other published Dark Heresy books, including itself in places.

Actuality Blood of Maryters and the Inquisitor hand books say it. as well as the fluff pointing to it, eccpt maybe a few odd BL books. I have not read them but they often contradict themselves, even when wrote by the same people.

I find nothing in BoM about the sisters that contradicts itself on this subject. If you have I would like to see a page number as I honestly have missed it.

Anyhow the old Fluff strongly implies it and GW will never say it as they seem to hide from the very thought of anything even slightly sex related.

Anyhow for game related stuff, until and if ever GW does a SoB codex, I would put my money on the FFG books with their much better setting control then the BL books with its more free wheeling take on setting canon.

So has this pretty much become a 'Fluff as written' vs 'Fluff as intended' argument?

More like "Fluff as written and intended" vs "Fluff as desired"

Dannyevilguy wrote:So has this pretty much become a 'Fluff as written' vs 'Fluff as intended' argument?

How so? Fluff as written does not say what some here claim. The most damning thing is "Out to the sword" but claims of bathing in blood and sacrificing the sisters in a religious manor are no where in the Codex. I agree they more and likely just killed em, but then they are the Inquisition thats common.

Dannyevilguy wrote:So has this pretty much become a 'Fluff as written' vs 'Fluff as intended' argument?

Not really. At the end of the day, Chaos is mankind's only hope for salvation, and we should embrace its power whole-heartedly. And no, I don't mean worship the Chaos Gods (although the Word Bearers do make it look fun). They need us, we don't need them. The Emperor was wrong in his lack of foresight, and Magnus, though impatient and reckless, was completely right. Mastery and dominance of Chaos is possible. GK are proof.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Actuality Blood of Maryters and the Inquisitor hand books say it. as well as the fluff pointing to it, eccpt maybe a few odd BL books. I have not read them but they often contradict themselves, even when wrote by the same people.

I find nothing in BoM about the sisters that contradicts itself on this subject. If you have I would like to see a page number as I honestly have missed it.

Anyhow the old Fluff strongly implies it and GW will never say it as they seem to hide from the very thought of anything even slightly sex related.

Anyhow for game related stuff, until and if ever GW does a SoB codex, I would put my money on the FFG books with their much better setting control then the BL books with its more free wheeling take on setting canon.

Page 52 on the order Famulous. Under a feudal state, such as the Imperium, a 'chatelaine' is the wife or mistress of the head of the household. I suspect that they simply overlooked the word's meaning in this context, and were perhaps looking for 'Chamberlain' or it was written as a hold over from the Famulous = Bene Gesserit. However, there you have it.

Looked through IH but don't see it. Granted, my copy is the old Black Industries one so maybe FFG added it.

Blood of Martyrs also claims that sisters never leave the order, and then brings up them leaving or changing orders later in the book, as well as in Ascension sisters flat out leaving and joining the Inquisition.

And, frankly, FFG's setting control is only tight in places. Rogue Trader they seem to have pretty free reign to play faster and looser with canon than BL ever has.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Page 52 on the order Famulous. Under a feudal state, such as the Imperium, a 'chatelaine' is the wife or mistress of the head of the household. I suspect that they simply overlooked the word's meaning in this context, and were perhaps looking for 'Chamberlain' or it was written as a hold over from the Famulous = Bene Gesserit. However, there you have it.

Looked through IH but don't see it. Granted, my copy is the old Black Industries one so maybe FFG added it.

Blood of Martyrs also claims that sisters never leave the order, and then brings up them leaving or changing orders later in the book, as well as in Ascension sisters flat out leaving and joining the Inquisition.

And, frankly, FFG's setting control is only tight in places. Rogue Trader they seem to have pretty free reign to play faster and looser with canon than BL ever has.

Page 52 is an example of FFG largest and must bothering flaw. Editing Errors and lack of freaking Errata. I think as well they meant Chamberlain. and nothing I could find about the Famulos says they are mistress or consorts. They act as Nurses and nannies and teachers and stay in place for decades over multiple generations. that is not something one normally does as a Consort. They are match makers and brokers, and keepers of a Noble families linage, not mistress of the head of household.

IH is on page 41, second side of the page first line under Sororitas Characters. I'll have to look over BoM's stuff before i can counter, agree or comment on it.

I disagree about FFG control, they have more freeheand in the expanse as they made it up and it was meant to be vague and unfinished, But they do not contradict base setting fluff like GW does as they keep track of it.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Page 52 is an example of FFG largest and must bothering flaw. Editing Errors and lack of freaking Errata. I think as well they meant Chamberlain. and nothing I could find about the Famulos says they are mistress or consorts. They act as Nurses and nannies and teachers and stay in place for decades over multiple generations. that is not something one normally does as a Consort. They are match makers and brokers, and keepers of a Noble families linage, not mistress of the head of household.

IH is on page 41, second side of the page first line under Sororitas Characters. I'll have to look over BoM's stuff before i can counter, agree or comment on it.

I disagree about FFG control, they have more freeheand in the expanse as they made it up and it was meant to be vague and unfinished, But they do not contradict base setting fluff like GW does as they keep track of it.

Don't let HBMC hear you complain about thier editing too loudly.

It talks about the ideals they aspire to, but not that they swear oaths to do any of these things, in my copy.

"Adepta Sororitas are courageous, self-sacrificing, pious, chaste and faithful." Those ar the ideas they aspire to, not the oaths they swear.

And....well....


'Sorry, honey, but you have some Khorne in your teeth there...'



And, no, they don't. Avenger grand cruisers are the most stunningly obvious of this, their base hull stats have been different in every book they appeared in, and when asked which one was the 'official' one, the official reply from FFG was 'all of them'.

Man you are chaste or you are not. You don;t try to be faithful and chaste. You are or are not.

Lets run though this.
*Lives apart from men.
*Do not mix with people not of the Order(Mostly)
*Lives for duty, prayers and contemplation
*Live in Convents.

I am not sure how much clearer it can get that they are chaste nuns given that GW avoids anything involving sex.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Man you are chaste or you are not. You don;t try to be faithful and chaste. You are or are not.

Lets run though this.
*Lives apart from men.
*Do not mix with people not of the Order(Mostly)
*Lives for duty, prayers and contemplation
*Live in Convents.

I am not sure how much clearer it can get that they are chaste nuns given that GW avoids anything involving sex.

There's a difference between taking a vow and not having the opportunity.

And, I might point out that your points 1, 2, and 4, are not universal even in orders where they're the standard. While I'm sure the smoking, drinking, screwing, gambling Battle Sister in the CC novels is most likely not the rule, battle sisters are frequently put on extended deployment in warzones, (where 1 and 4 go right out the window, and 2 is most likely near impossible to avoid, given the circumstances.)

And, further, the nonmilitant orders largely do none of those things but, in theory, 3. And even then, apparently, to varying degrees. Your list would only really apply to the orders militant, and only then when actually not deployed anywhere. Which, if fluff is to be believed, is a very rare event.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:So aside from their talismans, psychic powers and lifelong training

That lifetime of training and talismans are the Aegis and their Hexagrammic wards. There is nothing else differentiating them from a regular Astartes.

But you're referring to them like petty baubles rather than very powerful forms of protection. One that differs a Grey Knight from your average Astartes in a major way. There's a reason why Grey Knights are not mind-scrubbed after every daemonic encounter.

there were sisters of battle that were resisting the effects of the Bloodtide entirely.

Was there? Or were there just some that hadn't immediately succumbed? We don't know. Maybe some were immediately overcome, and some took weeks or months.

It would certainly not be over a period of weeks or months, that would mean that some of the Grey Knights exposed would have turned after the battle. Face facts, completely unprotected sisters were resisting the effects of the Bloodtide.

Anything that an unprotected Sister of Battle can withstand should be easy enough for a Grey Knight afforded the full protection of their equipment to handle.

Nope. Think of anything in real life. Some people live through car crashes, some dont. Some people get sick from an illness, some don't. Some people get shot and live, some people slip over and die. It'd be like walking into a plague zone where some people were un-infected, and not worrying about a hazmat suit because you'd already had your flu shot that year.

It doesn't matter if those people were unaffected, it's still dangerous.

Comparing the effects of the warp with a car crash doesn't work at all. Grey Knights have dedicated their entire existence to dealing with this kind of threat, while the sisters have not. Stop pretending that there is no difference between the two.

why on Holy Terra would the Grey Knights not be prepared for this sort of thing? Rather than an ad hoc massacre of the Sisters on-site, why wouldn't the Grey Knights already have such ointments readily available on their ships? All that was required was the blood of a few innocents and a few holy oils.

Firstly, we can't assume that they will always carry everything they may possibly need. Maybe they had it on their ships but the time to get back up there and down again would have resulted in the entire planet being consumed, maybe it's only an ingredient in this one particular warding ritual, so they left it at home and brought double the amount of crystalised virgins tears, because you always need those things. Failing that, maybe it needed to be fresh blood.

We know they had time to get fall back and prepare, because that's exactly what they did in the codex entry. How would they have had the equipment necessary on hand to prepare the mixture from the sister's blood?
Furthermore, you strike me as a bit of a GK fan so I would be surprised if you didn't know they weren't capable of teleportation.

And again, why would it need to be fresh blood? The innocent blood they use on their other equipment didn't have to be fresh, and there's no reason to assume this mixture did. If the only way to defend a piece of fluff is just 'We don't know' then it's not a very good piece of fluff.


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Omegus wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
I have read the Siege of Vraks (Good stuff). Did the Grey Knight in question turn his blade against his fellows?

Nice attempt at deflection from being dead wrong.

Also, if one of his "fellows's" death could be used to give them some huge advantage over the greater daemon/prince/whatever that they were fighting, then yes, current fluff says the Grey Knight would turn his blade against them.

I'm the one deflecting?

I've asked a question which you very well know the answer to, has there ever been a case where a Grey Knight has become so warped and mutated that they have started attacking their fellow Grey Knights?

Hunterindarkness wrote:Man you are chaste or you are not. You don;t try to be faithful and chaste. You are or are not.

Lets run though this.
*Lives apart from men.
*Do not mix with people not of the Order(Mostly)
*Lives for duty, prayers and contemplation
*Live in Convents.

I am not sure how much clearer it can get that they are chaste nuns given that GW avoids anything involving sex.

The Caiphas Cain novels make it pretty clear celibacy isn't a requirement for the Adepta Sororitas. At most sex could be viewed as a bad thing if done at the convent because it might distract one from their proper attention to worship of the Emperor. But no more than tennis.

I'll get back to your other post later, but now I have a lecture to get to.

The Aegis and Hexagrammic Wards are indeed formidable, however, so is the Bloodtide.

I really don't see how its hard to accept that against some things the GK's defenses are unable to protect him.


It is simpler then the, rather odd, explaination that GKs are engaging in bloodrites and dark sacrifices.

Remember Occum's Razor!

I have not read the novels you guys are talking about. ALl I have to go on is published game books, Both GW and FFG's books. Both mark them clearly as Nuns. The Novels seem to fly in the face of the common portrayal of the SoB and most likely the "In correct" version of them as it does a 360 to every other published material about them.

All in all classic GW not controlling the setting.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Face facts, completely unprotected sisters were resisting the effects of the Bloodtide.

IF that were the case, and I'm not conceding it is, it still changes nothing. The Bloodtide was dangerous, regardless of some Sisters proving resistant or simply being lucky.

If the only way to defend a piece of fluff is just 'We don't know' then it's not a very good piece of fluff.

If the piece of fluff went in depth and covered every reason why it had to happen like that, it would be a bad piece of fluff, although it would apparently make you happier. Any of your 'problems' can be answered with reasonable assumptions on the part of the reader, nothing is too 'out there' about it

Hunterindarkness wrote:I have not read the novels you guys are talking about. ALl I have to go on is published game books, Both GW and FFG's books. Both mark them clearly as Nuns. The Novels seem to fly in the face of the common portrayal of the SoB and most likely the "In correct" version of them as it does a 360 to every other published material about them.

All in all classic GW not controlling the setting.

Yes, because even Faith and Fire shows SoB having actual relationships with people outside their order. For some reason people constantly think of the SoB as Nuns with Guns, but in reality, according to GW, they're actually based off female knightly orders such as the Order of the Hatchet, which came into existence during the crusades, and saw combat in Spain against the Moors. Even their terminology and symbolism come from French chevaleresses of the 14th and 15th century.

Modern ideas of the proper behavior of Nuns have nothing to do with SoB. Look more to the Rules of various knightly orders. Some had very strict Rules, some did not.

Thus, it could be argued, that in this case, the novels are closer to intent, while the (highly questionable, in the case of BoM) rule books stray farther from.

I see it the other way around. SoB have stolen in game ( Both Tt and RPG) Nun terminology and imagery as well as those of Knightly orders. However the fluff of the game shows them to be very Nun like. There is a reason people think they are "Nuns with Guns" as that is how they have always been written in the game stuff I have seen.

If ya call them sisters, make them an all female order of "wives of the emperor" and place them in convents then yeah it comes off as Nun ish. I am ok with useing the BL stuff untile it runs counter to established fluff. Which from what I have heard here it clearly does

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
I have read the Siege of Vraks (Good stuff). Did the Grey Knight in question turn his blade against his fellows?

Nice attempt at deflection from being dead wrong.

Also, if one of his "fellows's" death could be used to give them some huge advantage over the greater daemon/prince/whatever that they were fighting, then yes, current fluff says the Grey Knight would turn his blade against them.

I'm the one deflecting?

I've asked a question which you very well know the answer to, has there ever been a case where a Grey Knight has become so warped and mutated that they have started attacking their fellow Grey Knights?

You made a claim that GK are immune to the effects of the Warp. You are wrong, there are multiple instances where Warp powers overwhelm their aegis.

You are assuming that their resistance is passive and requires no further input from them. You are wrong. Going as far back as the Dark Millennium sourcebook, their lives have been ones of ritual and precaution, and it's these precautions that have safeguarded them from succumbing to possession or the temptations of Chaos.

And your question is frankly irrelevant. No, it hasn't happened before. The closest thing we have to that is Alaric's brief stint as a berserker gladiator. And now we have the possible threat of that happening with the Bloodtide. But again, the reason it has never happened before, is because the Grey Knights always take every precaution. They carry a Cliff's Notes copy of the best tips and tricks from their daemon library for a reason.