Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, you're giving Ward too much credit.

I think that You need to look at the intent of the codex and their fluff as a whole and try to look beyond some of the terrible and ambiguous writing in the details.

The Grey knights are supposed to seem like Kights in Shining Armor at first glance, but when you look a little closer, they are not as "good" as they seem. This is the main theme of their codex. Some of the things go too far on the "Shining Armor" side (ie. draigo). Some things go a little too far on the "At any Cost" side (ie. the bloodtide).

In the previous book, they were puritans, who would never allow any chaos to survive or to help them. In the most recent incarnation they are radicals. They are allowed to do whatever is the EASIEST way to fight chaos, not necessarily the BEST or most GOOD way. (I am also lead to believe that this is closer to their "original fluff" but I have not read it myself)


Was killing the sisters to fight the bloodtide the ONLY way to fight it? probably not. They may have been a different way, maybe involving allying with the sisters, avoiding or containing the bloodtide, ect.
Was it is EASIEST way to fight the bloodtide? Yes, and they Grey Knights take the easy way out, no matter the cost.



Another example is the ships full of thousands of refugees with one possible daemon mixed in.
Could the Grey Knights have enlisted some help, screened all of the people looking for the daemon, found him and spared all of the people? yes
Is it easier to just kill all of them instead? Yes, and they Grey Knights took the easier option.

svendrex wrote:
I think that You need to look at the intent of the codex and their fluff as a whole and try to look beyond some of the terrible and ambiguous writing in the details.

The Grey knights are supposed to seem like Kights in Shining Armor at first glance, but when you look a little closer, they are not as "good" as they seem. This is the main theme of their codex. Some of the things go too far on the "Shining Armor" side (ie. draigo). Some things go a little too far on the "At any Cost" side (ie. the bloodtide).

In the previous book, they were puritans, who would never allow any chaos to survive or to help them. In the most recent incarnation they are radicals. They are allowed to do whatever is the EASIEST way to fight chaos, not necessarily the BEST or most GOOD way. (I am also lead to believe that this is closer to their "original fluff" but I have not read it myself)


Was killing the sisters to fight the bloodtide the ONLY way to fight it? probably not. They may have been a different way, maybe involving allying with the sisters, avoiding or containing the bloodtide, ect.
Was it is EASIEST way to fight the bloodtide? Yes, and they Grey Knights take the easy way out, no matter the cost.



Another example is the ships full of thousands of refugees with one possible daemon mixed in.
Could the Grey Knights have enlisted some help, screened all of the people looking for the daemon, found him and spared all of the people? yes
Is it easier to just kill all of them instead? Yes, and they Grey Knights took the easier option.

See this is exactly my problem:
1) The Grey Knights are Radical. Nice, so they're toeing the line between regular human and damnation. They're not even pure anymore.

2) The Grey Knights take the easy way out. Nice, so if they could destroy the entire Imperium, they would, because it's easier than defending it.\

Way to go, Grey Knights.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
See this is exactly my problem:
1) The Grey Knights are Radical. Nice, so they're toeing the line between regular human and damnation. They're not even pure anymore.

2) The Grey Knights take the easy way out. Nice, so if they could destroy the entire Imperium, they would, because it's easier than defending it.\

Way to go, Grey Knights.

You seem not to understand just what inquisitors are and just what they do. The Gray Knights are NOT space marines. They are agents of the Inquisition. And facing something like that, they damned well will do what it takes to destroy it. All but the most extreme Puritans would have done about the same. That does not make them radicals, it makes them agents of the Inquisition doing their duty.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
See this is exactly my problem:
1) The Grey Knights are Radical. Nice, so they're toeing the line between regular human and damnation. They're not even pure anymore.

2) The Grey Knights take the easy way out. Nice, so if they could destroy the entire Imperium, they would, because it's easier than defending it.\

Way to go, Grey Knights.

You seem not to understand just what inquisitors are and just what they do. The Gray Knights are NOT space marines. They are agents of the Inquisition. And facing something like that, they damned well will do what it takes to destroy it. All but the most extreme Puritans would have done about the same. That does not make them radicals, it makes them agents of the Inquisition doing their duty.

This is disingenuous.

You know full well that any inquisitor who takes the same measures as the Grey Knights is considered Radical. Look at Inquistor Quixos, or any of the inquisitors in the Radical's Handbook for Dark Heresy.

Wielding a Daemon Weapon by the head of the Purifiers is enough to condemn the entire chapter, IMHO. It can't be destroyed, but there are other ways of disposing of it.

What I wonder in this story is what damn Grey Knight came up with the idea and why wasn't he smacked down hard in the head.

Well GKs are kinda like fratboys that way.

Unit1126PLL wrote:[
This is disingenuous.

You know full well that any inquisitor who takes the same measures as the Grey Knights is considered Radical. Look at Inquistor Quixos, or any of the inquisitors in the Radical's Handbook for Dark Heresy.

Not at all. Puritan inquisitor do way , way worse then what the Gray Knights did.

They did "bath in blood One and only one time for a very specific purpose", this does not even approach what some radicals do, such as bond demons, constantly use corrupting and vile artifacts and so forth.. Quixos did far, far, worse. He bound demons, he caused countless deaths and seemed to be using some daemon spawned artifact for a reason that demons told him it would do some good. He was not a radical, he was a corrupt and fallen inquisitor. You seem not to be able to tell the two apart.

A radical walks a fine line, the Gray Knights did not even come close to that line with that action. The Death and use of the SoB blood, who are duty bound to give their very lives for the IoM if needed is not even a blimp of say a puritan inquisitor ordering the death of a whole world and countless billions of lives. That is not called radical, using hundreds of thousands of IG in a hopeless rush for a division is not "Radical". Man you really dislike this one action and are trying to call it something it simply is not.

You can dislike it, but it simply is not all that radical a move for agents of the Inquisition.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:[
This is disingenuous.

You know full well that any inquisitor who takes the same measures as the Grey Knights is considered Radical. Look at Inquistor Quixos, or any of the inquisitors in the Radical's Handbook for Dark Heresy.

Not at all. Puritan inquisitor do way , way worse then what the Gray Knights did.

They did "bath in blood One and only one time for a very specific purpose", this does not even approach what some radicals do, such as bond demons, constantly use corrupting and vile artifacts and so forth.. Quixos did far, far, worse. He bound demons, he caused countless deaths and seemed to be using some daemon spawned artifact for a reason that demons told him it would do some good. He was not a radical, he was a corrupt and fallen inquisitor. You seem not to be able to tell the two apart.

A radical walks a fine line, the Gray Knights did not even come close to that line with that action. The Death and use of the SoB blood, who are duty bound to give their very lives for the IoM if needed is not even a blimp of say a puritan inquisitor ordering the death of a whole world and countless billions of lives. That is not called radical, using hundreds of thousands of IG in a hopeless rush for a division is not "Radical". Man you really dislike this one action and are trying to call it something it simply is not.

You can dislike it, but it simply is not all that radical a move for agents of the Inquisition.

It's not just that one action; I have a list made up:

1) The Bathing in Blood incident.
2) Wielding a Daemon Weapon on the part of one of their highest officers.
3) Their Chapter Master is galavanting about in the Warp, consorting with who knows what and doing who knows what.
4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).
5) They kill others for being possibly corrupted, while not considering the possibility within their own ranks. Except when they kill Sisters - then it's possible for them to be corrupted.

Those are my primary beefs with the chapter.

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).

Without psykers the Imperium would fall apart...

purplefood wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).

Without psykers the Imperium would fall apart...

Some psykers are a necessity, yes. I don't deny it, and neither do the Black Templars. I don't have to like it, though, and I certainly don't have to stop my Magos from researching alternatives.

...I hope no one from my DH group is reading this.

Usually blood sacrifice is looked down upon, and the GKs WOULD be declared heretics for it by most of the Imperium, especially given who was sacrificed.

Their secrecy saved them from their heresy of course.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).

Without psykers the Imperium would fall apart...

Some psykers are a necessity, yes. I don't deny it, and neither do the Black Templars. I don't have to like it, though, and I certainly don't have to stop my Magos from researching alternatives.

...I hope no one from my DH group is reading this.

So basically if they're useful they get to live?
That's good because all psykers seem to be sueful in some way or another...

purplefood wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).

Without psykers the Imperium would fall apart...

Some psykers are a necessity, yes. I don't deny it, and neither do the Black Templars. I don't have to like it, though, and I certainly don't have to stop my Magos from researching alternatives.

...I hope no one from my DH group is reading this.

So basically if they're useful they get to live?
That's good because all psykers seem to be sueful in some way or another...

Not useful. Necessary.

Clues in the name, people. GREY knights. Not White, not Black. Grey. They may be incorruptible, but that doesn't make them good.

Technically they're silver.

Just to add my two cents in: People can "worship" a chaos god with out knowing it can't they? Just through certain actions they can empower one and/or weaken another (if just slightly). With that thinking... I'm sure coating their armor in the blood of their innocent friend/allies didn't HURT Khorne any...

WarrKing wrote:Just to add my two cents in: People can "worship" a chaos god with out knowing it can't they? Just through certain actions they can empower one and/or weaken another (if just slightly). With that thinking... I'm sure coating their armor in the blood of their innocent friend/allies didn't HURT Khorne any...

They can feed a god without meaning to, but worship has to be active AFAIK.

Unit1126PLL wrote:The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

Nurgle wrote:Yes but it says that the grey knights are PURE and untaintable. So why would they need the blood?

Off the top of my head, perhaps because the Bloodtide was a physical infection with psychic components which could over-power and destroy the Grey Knights?

Unit1126PLL wrote:And how was this infection, which some regular-human Sisters were able to fight off, going to infect sealed-armor Space Marines?

Just a thought, but perhaps they were rear-echelon troops who hadn't seen combat yet, or had simply not actually touched the bloodtide yet. Lack of exposure doesn't mean immunity.

Rimmy wrote:HOWEVER, I do have a problem with this. the armor and black carapace that ALL marines have is impervious to liquids and even space so long as they're wearing their helmet. its a closed loop system.

so a group of marines could be walking through a lake of blood and be just fine.

Really? I missed the part where it specified skin contact was necessary. Oh yeah, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

Nurgle wrote:Yes but it says that the grey knights are PURE and untaintable. So why would they need the blood?

Off the top of my head, perhaps because the Bloodtide was a physical infection with psychic components which could over-power and destroy the Grey Knights?

Unit1126PLL wrote:And how was this infection, which some regular-human Sisters were able to fight off, going to infect sealed-armor Space Marines?

Just a thought, but perhaps they were rear-echelon troops who hadn't seen combat yet, or had simply not actually touched the bloodtide yet. Lack of exposure doesn't mean immunity.

Rimmy wrote:HOWEVER, I do have a problem with this. the armor and black carapace that ALL marines have is impervious to liquids and even space so long as they're wearing their helmet. its a closed loop system.

so a group of marines could be walking through a lake of blood and be just fine.

Really? I missed the part where it specified skin contact was necessary. Oh yeah, it isn't.

To address your points in order:

1) Anointing oneself in the blood of the pure protects one from physical harm? LOL! Why do we need tanks when all we REALLY needed was the blood of the pure!?
2) So the Sisters who had touched it and were mere mortal humans are not evidence that you can be immune to it, ESPECIALLY if you are a demigod superhuman?
3) I missed the part where it said it spread through means that sealed armor couldn't prevent.

Unit1126PLL wrote: 1) Anointing oneself in the blood of the pure protects one from physical harm? LOL! Why do we need tanks when all we REALLY needed was the blood of the pure!?

Don't disingenuous. Particular types of armour defend against particular types of weapon. What good is a tank against a psychic attack?

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) So the Sisters who had touched it and were mere mortal humans are not evidence that you can be immune to it, ESPECIALLY if you are a demigod superhuman?
3) I missed the part where it said it spread through means that sealed armor couldn't prevent.

You're choosing to imagine two things here.

Firstly that the sisters in question had been exposed to the bloodtide and resisted it, and secondly that the bloodtide itself require skin contact to be effective. Why are you imagining those things?

Kaldor wrote:Don't disingenuous. Particular types of armour defend against particular types of weapon. What good is a tank against a psychic attack?

You shoot the attacker

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Don't disingenuous. Particular types of armour defend against particular types of weapon. What good is a tank against a psychic attack?

You shoot the attacker

lol!

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote: 1) Anointing oneself in the blood of the pure protects one from physical harm? LOL! Why do we need tanks when all we REALLY needed was the blood of the pure!?

Don't disingenuous. Particular types of armour defend against particular types of weapon. What good is a tank against a psychic attack?

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) So the Sisters who had touched it and were mere mortal humans are not evidence that you can be immune to it, ESPECIALLY if you are a demigod superhuman?
3) I missed the part where it said it spread through means that sealed armor couldn't prevent.

You're choosing to imagine two things here.

Firstly that the sisters in question had been exposed to the bloodtide and resisted it, and secondly that the bloodtide itself require skin contact to be effective. Why are you imagining those things?

Well, it did say that the Sisters had resisted the taint if I'm not mistaken. And if they hadn't been exposed, then the Grey Knights still killed them for no reason on the off chance that their blood would protect them from the Bloodtide even though the blood inside the sisters that were corrupted didn't do much to protect them.

What I always find rather fun about this debate is that that I can imagine a bunch of imperial officials arguing about this topic and using the exact same arguments as the people here. One side points out that it's tantamount to khorn worship. Then the other side responds that the grey knights are incorruptible.

I don't understand where people are getting the idea that the Grey Knights would have been just as susceptible to the Bloodtide as your average human.

Hazardous Harry wrote:I don't understand where people are getting the idea that the Grey Knights would have been just as susceptible to the Bloodtide as your average human.

No one is saying just as. However as different as an Astarte is, they are not immune to plagues and the like, they might be very resistant but not Immune. They dies just like normal humans if you hit them with something nasty enough.

But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

If half of an Imperial Guard regiment fell to the influence of some forbidden artifact, the response of the Grey Knights would likely not be to kill the other half and anoint themselves in their blood to act as protection. Instead, what the Grey Knights actually do is work with the loyalists to kill the infected and destroy the artifact. Whether or not they then turn upon the survivors is an entirely different matter.

Much is left unsaid in what is written. It may have been a way to cover that extra 5% as someone said in this thread. Or it may have been something different to that set of Sisters.

Again it simply does not go into details. All it says is more or less they thought they needed to. Kinda stands to reasons they had a reason for this.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I understand your point, but our problem lies with the supposed "necessity" of the action.

The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

No, they have been described as "incorruptible" in terms of them not turning against the Imperium.

They still die just as easily to Daemons and sorcerous powers. Seeing as how the Bloodtide in this depiction was a physical ailment, there's still plenty of chance for them to be harmed by it.