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I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

Grey Templar wrote:Rule 1, 4-chan is NOT a place to get information from

The story you describe did happen, but it is severly misinterperted.


There was a planet that was under the influence of the Bloodtide. It is a daemonic infection that takes over your body. you either explode in a shower of gore OR you begin mindless bloodletting.

There was a convent of sisters, some of their members we able to resist the Bloodtide with their purity.


The GKs arrived and found the sisters. The GKs didn't know if they could also proove immune to the Bloodtide. Just because they can't be corrupted won't prevent them from exploding or going crazy, its not en either or deal. Nurgle can still make GKs sick, he just can't make them join him. Same kinda deal with the Bloodtide.

So the GKs killed the Sisters and coated their armor in their blood. This allowed them to avoid the Bloodtide long enough for them to stop it.

Nothing says the Sisters weren't willing sacrifices. There was no malice involved, it just needed to be done. They were probably happy to lay down their lives if it meant stopping the infection.

A great explanation.

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

Except they did have problems with it, where the Sisters did not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hazardous Harry wrote:And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

Because it's a poorly written, poorly thought out piece of fluff. Sure it's canon, but it's still kinda crap canon.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

Except they did have problems with it, where the Sisters did not.

Did they? There's no mention of any of them turning, or showing signs of infection. The killing of the sisters and using their blood was a precaution, not a cure.

Hazardous Harry wrote:And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

Because it's a poorly written, poorly thought out piece of fluff. Sure it's canon, but it's still kinda crap canon.

Agreed.

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

It wasn't a good portion, it was a small handful who were cowering in their chapel as the whole world tore itself apart.

Again, ritual, blood or otherwise, is extremely important and powerful in 40K. Just belief can make things happen, as can be seen with the Saints and other manifestations of the Emperor's power. Orks are an extreme example of this, but we also see it with the Space Wolves and the various fetishes, wards and lucky charms they festoon themselves with. Grey Knights using parts of humans in their battle against Chaos is nothing new. How do you think psybolts are made? In the older fluff, they were basically made out of ground-up pariahs, and I think that's still the case in the new codex.

And yet again, there's no discrepancy between a few Sisters resisting and the Grey Knights wanting to take additional precautions. If 1/10 Sisters are immune, and 1/10 Grey Knights are susceptible, it's worth sacrificing all of the Sisters if that saves even one GK. And it's fully within the character of the Sisters to sacrifice themselves in this circumstance. The problem is not what happened, just how poorly it's written. We have to work even harder to justify Draigo: it's an allegory on the futility of their war/it's a tall-tale they tell recruits as a bedtime story, Tzeench is fething with him, the whole thing is a Warp-induced hallucination, etc.

But yes, I do not like the new Grey Knights being radicals (and they are very much radicals). Mainly, because this cheapens the true threat and insidious nature of Chaos. If with some additional mental discipline and a few precautions, you can use the most powerful sorceries/Chaos artifacts, then Chaos is very much conquerable. That means the Emperor was wrong (this is starting to become a habit), Magnus' speech at Nikea was completely right (which apparently Malcador ended up agreeing with; Guilliman certainly did in Know No Fear), and the latter's fall and really the whole Heresy could have been easily avoided with a bit of prophylaxis.

Grey Knights went from a small cadre of the best humanity had to offer, fighting an unwinnable war against an impossible enemy, to these unstoppable badasses that effortlessly donkey-punch the greatest of daemonic entities on their own home turf, and make new weapons out of their remains with their friggin' minds. Oh sure, the war is still unwinnable, but the battles and their enemy have been reduced to a trans-galactic game of whack-a-mole. It cheapens the whole setting of 40K.

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

I'm sure they do whenever they face the Bloodtide.

Omegus wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

It wasn't a good portion, it was a small handful who were cowering in their chapel as the whole world tore itself apart.

Wrong, it was a significant portion of the attack force attempting to storm the basillica. This is almost the exact opposite of what you stated.

Again, ritual, blood or otherwise, is extremely important and powerful in 40K. Just belief can make things happen, as can be seen with the Saints and other manifestations of the Emperor's power. Orks are an extreme example of this, but we also see it with the Space Wolves and the various fetishes, wards and lucky charms they festoon themselves with. Grey Knights using parts of humans in their battle against Chaos is nothing new. How do you think psybolts are made? In the older fluff, they were basically made out of ground-up pariahs, and I think that's still the case in the new codex.

There's still never been any precedent for turning on the allies you were currently fighting alongside for this purpose. What you're talking about is a preparation made pre-battle and most certainly not from allies in the field.

And yet again, there's no discrepancy between a few Sisters resisting and the Grey Knights wanting to take additional precautions. If 1/10 Sisters are immune, and 1/10 Grey Knights are susceptible, it's worth sacrificing all of the Sisters if that saves even one GK. And it's fully within the character of the Sisters to sacrifice themselves in this circumstance. The problem is not what happened, just how poorly it's written. We have to work even harder to justify Draigo: it's an allegory on the futility of their war/it's a tall-tale they tell recruits as a bedtime story, Tzeench is fething with him, the whole thing is a Warp-induced hallucination, etc.

There's nothing, at all, to indicate the Sisters were willing participants. And, given the secret nature of the Grey Knights, they would have been the most gullible idiots if they had been consenting.

But yes, I do not like the new Grey Knights being radicals (and they are very much radicals). Mainly, because this cheapens the true threat and insidious nature of Chaos. If with some additional mental discipline and a few precautions, you can use the most powerful sorceries/Chaos artifacts, then Chaos is very much conquerable. That means the Emperor was wrong (this is starting to become a habit), Magnus' speech at Nikea was completely right (which apparently Malcador ended up agreeing with; Guilliman certainly did in Know No Fear), and the latter's fall and really the whole Heresy could have been easily avoided with a bit of prophylaxis.

The decision at Nikea was about sorcery rather than Psykers.

Grey Knights went from a small cadre of the best humanity had to offer, fighting an unwinnable war against an impossible enemy, to these unstoppable badasses that effortlessly donkey-punch the greatest of daemonic entities on their own home turf, and make new weapons out of their remains with their friggin' minds. Oh sure, the war is still unwinnable, but the battles and their enemy have been reduced to a trans-galactic game of whack-a-mole. It cheapens the whole setting of 40K.

On the whole, I'd agree.

Kaldor wrote:I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

Actualyl it's supposed to be a unique kind of radiation that effects Kryptonian bodies, reducing them to normal (in most cases) where in the lack of said radiation they are capable of amazing feats.

Of course, its actual effects change from writer to writer. Best not get too far in to it

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

The author does not have free reign to mutilate existing canon. I can say that Superman suddenly eating babies to act as an immunity to Kryptonite is a shoddy piece of canon, mainly because it's unprecedented, unsupported and awesome disturbing.

And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

I'm sure they do whenever they face the Bloodtide.

So seeing as they would have already prepared for, turning on the sisters really was still just as unnecessary then? Good to know.

Melissia wrote:Of course, its actual effects change from writer to writer. Best not get too far in to it

Thats the point. I could start researching the possible effects of radiation and laugh at the way kryptonite is used by the writers, but why would I? I'm buying into the concept that it makes superman sick. Thats all I need to know. Same deal with the Bloodtide. I don't need to be told why, specifically, this particular type of Chaos evil poses a threat to the GK, nor do I need to understand exactly how it could compromise their sanity or infect their bodies. It's quite literally magic, and I'm ok with that.

I just need to know it could be bad for their mojo if it gets on them. Thats a perfectly reasonable assertion, and is not at all compromised by the fact that some other people encountered it without immediately fatal effect. Not everyone that smokes gets cancer. That doesn't mean it's safe to smoke.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

The author does not have free reign to mutilate existing canon. I can say that Superman suddenly eating babies to act as an immunity to Kryptonite is a shoddy piece of canon, mainly because it's unprecedented, unsupported and awesome disturbing.

Actually, he does have free reign to change existing canon. He is GW's codex writer.

If he wanted to make a pink fluffy bunny chapter he could. assuming he got approval.

I would so totally buy that chapter.

Grey Templar wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

The author does not have free reign to mutilate existing canon. I can say that Superman suddenly eating babies to act as an immunity to Kryptonite is a shoddy piece of canon, mainly because it's unprecedented, unsupported and awesome disturbing.

Actually, he does have free reign to change existing canon. He is GW's codex writer.

If he wanted to make a pink fluffy bunny chapter he could. assuming he got approval.

Yes, and you can be rest assured the amount of vitriol and criticism would be far greater than what is going on know. Even if it is canon, I can still legitimately say it's gakky canon. Especially when the evidence is there to suggest so.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

The author does not have free reign to mutilate existing canon. I can say that Superman suddenly eating babies to act as an immunity to Kryptonite is a shoddy piece of canon, mainly because it's unprecedented, unsupported and awesome disturbing.

Actually, he does have free reign to change existing canon. He is GW's codex writer.

If he wanted to make a pink fluffy bunny chapter he could. assuming he got approval.

Yes, and you can be rest assured the amount of vitriol and criticism would be far greater than what is going on know. Even if it is canon, I can still legitimately say it's gakky canon. Especially when the evidence is there to suggest so.

Its not gakky, it fits in with other established canon.

You are free to not like it, but it is non-theless existing and approved. I don't exactly agree with it, but neither am I opposed to it. It is justifiable in the context of the currwent canonm and hence I will defend it.

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:Of course, its actual effects change from writer to writer. Best not get too far in to it

Thats the point. I could start researching the possible effects of radiation and laugh at the way kryptonite is used by the writers, but why would I? I'm buying into the concept that it makes superman sick. Thats all I need to know. Same deal with the Bloodtide. I don't need to be told why, specifically, this particular type of Chaos evil poses a threat to the GK, nor do I need to understand exactly how it could compromise their sanity or infect their bodies. It's quite literally magic, and I'm ok with that.

I just need to know it could be bad for their mojo if it gets on them. Thats a perfectly reasonable assertion, and is not at all compromised by the fact that some other people encountered it without immediately fatal effect. Not everyone that smokes gets cancer. That doesn't mean it's safe to smoke.

I think the reason why there is a large number of folks who complain about this whole topic re: GK and Bloodtide is that they feel its a direct challenge to the core conception of the GK. They don't buy into it and are expressing their displeasure.

As i've stated before - you can come up with a rational for anything in fiction, but it is the audience that decides at the end of the day whether it is a positive thing or not.

Taking the comic book example for a second - if someone invented a form of kryptonite whose effects were found to be "off-key" from what has come to past and enough rancor was made about it, the likelihood of that writer staying on the Superman line diminishes. If the person continues to make similar moves that angers the fan base - they may prematurely end his run on the line.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

Except they did have problems with it, where the Sisters did not.

Other than the majority of Sisters either exploding in a shower of gore or starting to slaughter each other in a frenzy of bloodlust, with those unaffected having to hold out against a veritable onslaught of Bloodletters?

There's a reason it states that the "surviving Sisters of Battle" in the piece. We may not have the exact numbers, but it's clearly meant to portray that the Sisters were affected and that those who were not were the minority, rather than the majority.

Why would the sisters of Battle make such a sacrifice when they should be aware of the fact that the GK are incorruptible. I think the GK went in there and slaughtered them.

The blood had no effect whatsoever

Russ Mandarin wrote:Why would the sisters of Battle make such a sacrifice when they should be aware of the fact that the GK are incorruptible. I think the GK went in there and slaughtered them.

The blood had no effect whatsoever

I think you need to read the short piece of fluff being discussed before commenting.

I also think it would be handy to realize that "incorruptible" does not mean that you cannot be affected by Warp powers or physical ailments: like the Bloodtide, for example. If the Grey Knights were completely invulnerable to such a thing, they wouldn't need to wear Aegis armor or carry bolters and blades.

There is also the fact that the SoB will not be aware of who the GKs are.

In the GK omnibus the sisters there only know who the GKs were because their sister superior had served alongside them previously and recognized them. This shows that GKs do not execute SoB off hand like they would Guardsmen. Which shows they wouldn't have killed them unless it was required to get the job done.


The Bloodtide is completely justified on all accounts. Mat Ward is just a horrible writer.

How would the Knights re-act to it, being that it is a creation of Chaos? Or would they be able to partially resist it? So they'd still be enraged but be able to fight the corrupted sisters and such. In this situation, the Sister blood would do nothing, being that its an actual virus.

blood reaper wrote:How would the Knights re-act to it, being that it is a creation of Chaos? Or would they be able to partially resist it? So they'd still be enraged but be able to fight the corrupted sisters and such. In this situation, the Sister blood would do nothing, being that its an actual virus.

The "virus" is described as requiring blood to activate.

Coating yourself in blood would do something; namely acting as a kind of ablative armor that the virus would have to get through.

The other sisters where easily corrupted, so it wouldn't take much to get past it. Also, if I may compare it to the 'Rage' virus which passed through blood and saliva, would the Sister blood not also become like the blood tide virus and try to infect the Knight.

Kanluwen wrote:

blood reaper wrote:How would the Knights re-act to it, being that it is a creation of Chaos? Or would they be able to partially resist it? So they'd still be enraged but be able to fight the corrupted sisters and such. In this situation, the Sister blood would do nothing, being that its an actual virus.

The "virus" is described as requiring blood to activate.

Coating yourself in blood would do something; namely acting as a kind of ablative armor that the virus would have to get through.

So why not spill your own blood and cover your armor with it? I mean space marines heal incredibly fast but somehow they just had the genius idea that the SOB blood add even more protection from this virus.
Any logical sob would have told them the plan is stupid but then again they probably did which is why they got slaughtered.

Anyone working under the assumption that the Knights started slathering blood and gore on their armor, really needs to put down the keyboard, step back from the computer, and then kill themselves. Why argue so vehemently about something when you haven't read the source material? The Knights mixed the blood with various sacred unguents and oils, and used the mixture to anoint their armor. The actual amount of blood needed per Knight could have been quite small, who knows. Of course, this begs the question of why kill them rather than just taking a sample, but you could think up all sorts of justifications (must be life's blood, blah blah, whatever).

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The decision at Nikea was about sorcery rather than Psykers.

Maybe 10 years ago it was, but the current most comprehensive source we have on the Heresy are the Black Library novels, and in the context of those novels, Nikea was about all psykers. Even Astropaths and other essential personnel were affected, because they now started being followed around by "minders" with psy-blocking helms, a violent disposition and itchy trigger fingers.

What is the difference between the Alpha Legion and the Grey Knights (Chapter 666!), both secretive chapters shouting "For the Emperor":
1.) Alpha Legion was formed in the real world, Grey Knights in the warp (home planet moved to the warp during formation).
2.) Alpha Legions never did a blood rite.
So ...

Omegus wrote:Anyone working under the assumption that the Knights started slathering blood and gore on their armor, really needs to put down the keyboard, step back from the computer, and then kill themselves. Why argue so vehemently about something when you haven't read the source material? The Knights mixed the blood with various sacred unguents and oils, and used the mixture to anoint their armor. The actual amount of blood needed per Knight could have been quite small, who knows. Of course, this begs the question of why kill them rather than just taking a sample, but you could think up all sorts of justifications (must be life's blood, blah blah, whatever).

Thanks for proving yourself wrong

You mean other than an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince being responsible for unleashing one of the two things called "the Bloodtide".

See: "Hunt for Voldorius" for more information.

Kroothawk wrote:
Thanks for proving yourself wrong

Must be nice to be so deluded. Ignorance is bliss, so they say.

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince being responsible for unleashing one of the two things called "the Bloodtide".
See: "Hunt for Voldorius" for more information.

Well, haven't read that, so can't comment on the quality of that book.
But seems, like Alpha Legion is about as evil as Grey Knights then

Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince being responsible for unleashing one of the two things called "the Bloodtide".
See: "Hunt for Voldorius" for more information.

Well, haven't read that, so can't comment on the quality of that book.
But seems, like Alpha Legion is about as evil as Grey Knights then

Not even a little. AL works for chaos, they help it spread. They do not fight it, it really matters little if they "Think" they are in the right. They simply are not. They cause mass death, they ghelp spread fear and terror, they help the force of Chaos and do everything in their power to make the IoM anf the Human race as a whole fall.

The Grey Knights used the few surviving sisters blood as a talisman to fight off the plague. Talismans in 40k are a very real thing, faith is a very real thing, belief in a thing often makes it real in 40k.They are the militant arm of the Inquisition. An organization that does, vile, nasty things for the greater good of the IoM. They bio-plague whole hives, waste worlds, condemn possibly untainted people to death just to be sure. The Inquisition and by association the gray knights do bad, things because they must.Some of you people really and truly just do not get what they are. They are not nor never have been shining knights of uber good. They are the hard line of defense , the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, They are not nice, they can't afford to be nice. RThey are not good, nor are they bad. The are given the duty to hunt down and eradicate the daemonic dangers for the good of Mankind.

They simply do what they must. Some of you are wanting them to be 'The Good guys". Well no such beast among the IoM. You have shades of gray and rat bastards one and all, just some less gray then others.

Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince being responsible for unleashing one of the two things called "the Bloodtide".
See: "Hunt for Voldorius" for more information.

Well, haven't read that, so can't comment on the quality of that book.
But seems, like Alpha Legion is about as evil as Grey Knights then

Well, I'd advise against reading it.

Ever.

Anyways. The "Bloodtide" in there is a semi-sentient cyberbioweapon which makes those infected with it bleed.
It makes them bleed all their bloods! And then it makes a "Bloodtide"!

I wish I was kidding.