Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote: But there is still no case of a Grey Knight ever being so "corrupted" by the powers of the warp that they have turned their blades against their own. It hasn't happened, because if it ever had that would be a really big deal.

I'm pretty sure there are cases of Grey Knights being spawned and attacking their brothers, but I can't remember any off the top of my head. If a muscle can be warped, then so can a brain.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Premise (1): No Grey Knight has ever been so malformed or corrupted that they have started killing their brethren, even as a mindless slave.
Premise (2): The Bloodtide turned people into mad killers that turned on their fellows, due to the corrupting (either way you want to interpret that) powers of the warp.

If Premise 2 is correct, Premise 1 leads to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Grey Knights were at real risk from the Bloodtide.

Your position here is so full of holes it's mind boggling. Just as an example:

Your head has never exploded.

Shooting someone in the head makes their head explode.

Therefore, there is no evidence that you are at any risk if you are shot in the head.

Now, you could say that there is evidence that other heads will explode when shot, so it's fair to assume yours will too. But at the same time there are other servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the bloodtide, so it's ALSO fair to say that the Grey Knights will too.

This is a terrible equivocation of my argument.

Of course there are servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the Bloodtide and other warp influences. But it's a major point in Grey Knight fluff that not a single one of them has ever fallen. There are plenty of recorded instances of Guardsmen, Marines and even Sisters of Battle being corrupted to by the warp. And that includes corruption both in a decision to fall, and a physical change that forces them to act against there brethren.

There is no such case for the Grey Knights, and given that the fluff says they're [u incorruptible[/u] (Read: And makes no distinction like the one you're making) there's nothing to suggest that they aren't immune to both a foul influence and a warping mutation that would normally seize control of their bodies.

What matters is that the bloodtide could affect them.

There isn't any evidence for this. In case you haven't noticed, Grey Knights are not your typical Imperial Citizen.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:His point is:

1) The GKs cannot turn, due to the forces of Chaos, against the Imperium.

OR

2) They can.

The Bloodtide is a force of chaos that turns you into a person who wants to murder loyalist Imperials

Your language needs to be more clear. 'turn' is too ambiguous for this debate.

A Grey Knight will never decide to serve the forces of Chaos.

The Bloodtide does not present people with a decision, it robs them of it. It may have robbed the GK of that decision also, but they warded themselves to prevent it happening.

Nothing in the Codex to suggest they are talking about the same thing here. The codex certainly doesn't mention people randomly exploding in fountains of blood.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Durza wrote:Just out of interest: people are saying the Grey KNights needed the blood of innocents to create a barrier against the Bloodtide. But in what way are the Sisters innocent? They murder people for a living.

An archaic term for Virgin was an 'innocent" They are "Pure" and "Innocent" as long as they are. The SoB are chaste nuns if I recall. And I think that is what the rite called for, which is why the sisters were used. The story never says the soB were immune or resistant. Only that a few remained as must had been corrupted by the tide.

I understand that's the theme of what they're supposed to be, and is what the term also means. (especially with the completely non sexual GW fluff) But wouldn't that be heresy/sabotage against the Imperium? Also, aren't space marines virgins?

Hazardous Harry wrote:Of course there are servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the Bloodtide and other warp influences. But it's a major point in Grey Knight fluff that not a single one of them has ever fallen. There are plenty of recorded instances of Guardsmen, Marines and even Sisters of Battle being corrupted to by the warp. And that includes corruption both in a decision to fall, and a physical change that forces them to act against there brethren.

There is no such case for the Grey Knights, and given that the fluff says they're [u incorruptible[/u] (Read: And makes no distinction like the one you're making) there's nothing to suggest that they aren't immune to both a foul influence and a warping mutation that would normally seize control of their bodies.

You are, of course, completely and utterly wrong. Ever hear of the Grey Knights Omnibus? Or how about the Siege of Vraks? I illustrated the example from the Omnibus in the post right above yours, and in the Siege of Vraks a GUO managed to warp a GK. And ironically, the Bloodtide incident is yet another piece of evidence that the GK are not utterly immune to Chaotic energies, since they needed an additional ward to protect them. And before you start on how silly that sounds, the whole 40K universe is silly. The pieces of bones and fur the Wolves festoon themselves with actually have a protective effect, because they believe in their power. The Warp storms that blanketed communications and travel during the Heresy were in large part powered not only by the deaths of the Astartes on Istvaan, but especially by their feelings of outrage and betrayal.

The Bloodtide corrupts people and makes them sacrifice innocents and perform a blood rite.
When Grey Knights face the Bloodtide, they sacrifice innocents and perfom a blood rite.
It is as obvious as can be what happened here. And it killed previous fluff.

And even in 40k, not everyone is a misanthropic dictator or self righteous killer: Normal people still take offense when someone kills innocents and performs a blood rite with their blood.

Yes, the previous fluff about them being righteous knights of purity, the last ray of hope and line of resistance against Chaos.

That is no longer the fluff. If we know anything about Ward, is he likes turning existing fluff on its head. The new Grey Knights will do anything they must, including associating with Xenos and yes, even performing Chaotic rites.

And I quote:

Yet advanced technology is the least of the weapons in the Grey Knights' armory. Daemons are not creatures of science, but beings of the darkest myth and madness. To battle such creatures and emerge victorious, a warrior must be steeped in that same madness; he must embrace the sorceries of the Warp and so battle the Daemon with its own weapons. No ordinary human psyker could hope to do this, for even the attempt would leave his mind ravaged and corrupted beyond salvation. Yet a Grey Knight can not only endure such trails, but thrive amongst them. His strength lies not in martial might alone, but also his mind.

Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery. To this end, each Grey Knight is an accomplished psyker, trained to channel his mental energies into the halo of protective wards known as the Aegis, and an array of formidable battle-sorceries. A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemon's dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption. Such was the Emperor's gift to the very first Grey Knights; a legacy renewed in each new generation of Battle-Brothers. Thusly armored, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness tainted artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command.

So yes, them performing a rite that seems very "daemony" is perfectly in character. Now the above would suggest that they probably didn't need to do so, but I guess "the Emperor protects" goes only so far, and at some point you have to jimmy up.

Is the new background material bad/not as good as the old stuff? Yes. With GW's loose definition of canon, can you choose to completely disregard any and all fluff in the new codex? Absolutely**. But it still doesn't change what the most current and up-to-date studio material is. Ward's gakky fluff may be gakky, but it's the fluff as stands.


**As an aside, I personally choose to completely disregard the new codex, since it makes the Emperor look completely stupid and the whole Council of Nikea makes even less sense than the current already somewhat nonsensical HH retcon.

It's this sort of thing that makes me wish GW held as tight a grip on its canon fluff as it does on its IP.

McNinja wrote:It's this sort of thing that makes me wish GW held as tight a grip on its canon fluff as it does on its IP.

See this is something everyone can agree on. They need a creative directer in charge of the whole of the setting that does what a creative director should do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

I understand that's the theme of what they're supposed to be, and is what the term also means. (especially with the completely non sexual GW fluff) But wouldn't that be heresy/sabotage against the Imperium? Also, aren't space marines virgins?

Well no it would not be heresy/sabotage, they are the militant arm of an organization that has the ability and duty that if they think it is needed to burn worlds, hives and kill every man , woman and child they see fit for the good of the Imperium. Killing ahandfull of battle sisters for any reason they think necessary at the time is the lest of what they an and do do.

As for the second part, most may be normally, depending upon background and world. They Grayknights tend to hunt recruits from blackships, which tends to a older and more desperate type then normal. And honestly one more likely to have had sex as from what I have read they do not seem to separate them by sex and really do not care if they have psyker babies..more fuel for the Golden thrown or the ioM psyker needs.

Kroothawk wrote:The Bloodtide corrupts people and makes them sacrifice innocents and perform a blood rite.
When Grey Knights face the Bloodtide, they sacrifice innocents and perfom a blood rite.
It is as obvious as can be what happened here. And it killed previous fluff.

And even in 40k, not everyone is a misanthropic dictator or self righteous killer: Normal people still take offense when someone kills innocents and performs a blood rite with their blood.

There is your issue. The bolded part. They did no such thing, they preformed no blood ritual, they preformed no sacrifice, this is NOT what the codex says. What they did do was "Turn their blades upon the sisters" which may or may not have been with the consent of the sisters as they needed it for a component in crafting a weapon. That weapon took the form of a talisman , an consecrated oil it seems which they used to anoint the knights and the knights weapons.

*They did not cover themselves in blood.
*They did not sacrifice the sisters on some alter in some ritual to a dark god
*They did not preform these deeds in the name of any dark god.

Have any of you pro scriface guys read the passage and know just what is involved in " anointing"? It seems not honestly, you are adding things not listed and attributing items that are not involved in an anointing.

Direct creatively?

But yes, this sort of thing wouldn't come up if GW would get itself together and not have so many "alternate universe" 40k products like Space Marine or the BL novels (if I recall correctly).

Fluff is fluff. I like reading what other people write. Its why I like Mass Effect so much (well, the first one at least). The fluff is solid and makes sense. 40K? Not so much. And I don't care if it is a wargame, Mass Effect and Dragon Age are video games that have just as much impact on my daily life as 40k does. Just because GW can't be bothered to organize its fluff doesn't make it any less worth it or reasonable to do so.

McNinja wrote:Direct creatively?

But yes, this sort of thing wouldn't come up if GW would get itself together and not have so many "alternate universe" 40k products like Space Marine or the BL novels (if I recall correctly).

Fluff is fluff. I like reading what other people write. Its why I like Mass Effect so much (well, the first one at least). The fluff is solid and makes sense. 40K? Not so much. And I don't care if it is a wargame, Mass Effect and Dragon Age are video games that have just as much impact on my daily life as 40k does. Just because GW can't be bothered to organize its fluff doesn't make it any less worth it or reasonable to do so.

I meant a creative director. Almost evey creative company has such a beast. they are a person who is in charge of making sure all the parts fit the "vision" of the setting. Most companies have a guy or a group of guys who also are in charge of being"fluff guru" and making sure things are constant and if you say the x did something in year blah, blah someon else does not say they where dead in year blah, blah. The fact 40k is a war game has zero to do with it, other wargames do not suffer from the 40k issue of GW not giving a damn.

I think we are in total agreement on this one. GW is really mismanaging the setting.

Omegus wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Of course there are servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the Bloodtide and other warp influences. But it's a major point in Grey Knight fluff that not a single one of them has ever fallen. There are plenty of recorded instances of Guardsmen, Marines and even Sisters of Battle being corrupted to by the warp. And that includes corruption both in a decision to fall, and a physical change that forces them to act against there brethren.

There is no such case for the Grey Knights, and given that the fluff says they're [u incorruptible[/u] (Read: And makes no distinction like the one you're making) there's nothing to suggest that they aren't immune to both a foul influence and a warping mutation that would normally seize control of their bodies.

You are, of course, completely and utterly wrong. Ever hear of the Grey Knights Omnibus? Or how about the Siege of Vraks? I illustrated the example from the Omnibus in the post right above yours, and in the Siege of Vraks a GUO managed to warp a GK.

I have read the Siege of Vraks (Good stuff). Did the Grey Knight in question turn his blade against his fellows?

McNinja wrote:It's this sort of thing that makes me wish GW held as tight a grip on its canon fluff as it does on its IP.

Yeah, a setting bible would be awesome.

Oh, BTW: The sisters thing doesn't make sense. GKs heavily imply they are immune to warp borne diseases on at least two occasions (One being the Killing Ground, IIRC, the other being Flight of the Eisenstein and a few of the GK audio dramas).

Granted, both are BL sources. See first comment.

I think you're confusing "Grey Knights" with "Death Guard".

BaronIveagh wrote:

Oh, BTW: The sisters thing doesn't make sense. GKs heavily imply they are immune to warp borne diseases on at least two occasions (One being the Killing Ground, IIRC, the other being Flight of the Eisenstein and a few of the GK audio dramas).

Granted, both are BL sources. See first comment.

I have not read the first, however I have read Flight of the Eisenstein / There were no gray knight then. Where in that book does it have a hint to this?

Kanluwen wrote:I think you're confusing "Grey Knights" with "Death Guard".

No, I am not. You might want to look into what happens to those Death Guard afterward...

Hunterindarkness wrote:
I have not read the first, however I have read Flight of the Eisenstein / There were no gray knight then. Where in that book does it have a hint to this?

Garro is repeatedly exposed to the Destroyer Hive and does not contract it. In Legion of One this trend continues with what are, frankly, some of the most virulent plagues in Nurgle's arsenal, which regularly infect Space Marines who are in full gear simply by being in the same general area, let alone in regular hand to hand combat. (see Planetstrike.)

All of Garro's appearances rather heavy handedly imply that the Astartes he is gathering are the founding members of the Grey Knights. Including the potent Ultramarines librarian he gathers up in oath of moment.

They don't become GKs right away or have all the Anti-warp stuff for a loooong time NOR are they GKs genetically. GKs are based on the Emperor and have 0 Death Guard relations. The fact the original Grand Masters may have been DG doesn't make them in anyway related.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I think you're confusing "Grey Knights" with "Death Guard".

No, I am not. You might want to look into what happens to those Death Guard afterward...

I'm well aware of what is heavily implied:
Garro, Sister Kendra, and Iacton Qruze(The Half-Heard) are brought to a meeting with Malcador the Sigilite and he makes a statement as to him "seeking individuals of an inquisitive nature"(as if you could be less subtle with that one).

I'll address what I assume to be your point after this next quote.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
I have not read the first, however I have read Flight of the Eisenstein / There were no gray knight then. Where in that book does it have a hint to this?

Garro is repeatedly exposed to the Destroyer Hive and does not contract it. In Legion of One this trend continues with what are, frankly, some of the most virulent plagues in Nurgle's arsenal, which regularly infect Space Marines who are in full gear simply by being in the same general area, let alone in regular hand to hand combat. (see Planetstrike.)

All of Garro's appearances rather heavy handedly imply that the Astartes he is gathering are the founding members of the Grey Knights. Including the potent Ultramarines librarian he gathers up in oath of moment.

The "Destroyer Hive" is not something one contracts like a regular ol' disease. It is not something that infects. It is a manifestation of a Warp power housed within Typhus which kills and then reanimates the victims of said power. Typhus is the only known carrier of the Destroyer Hive at this moment. This, of course, is dependent upon the author though.

"Legion of One" has nothing to do with Nurgle's plagues. It takes place on Istvaan during the aftermath of the Traitor Legions and the virus bombing they subjected the Loyalists to.
All of Garro's appearances heavy handedly imply that the Astartes(and humans) he has gathered are the founding members of the Inquisition, not just the Grey Knights.

The current pet theory out there is that Garro and those members who did not turn with the Traitor Legions go on to found the Grey Knights towards the end of the Heresy. We, obviously, are not up to a point yet to know.

Hazardous Harry wrote:This is a terrible equivocation of my argument.

No, it's a logical extension of a very poor argument.

There is no such case for the Grey Knights, and given that the fluff says they're [u incorruptible[/u] (Read: And makes no distinction like the one you're making) there's nothing to suggest that they aren't immune to both a foul influence and a warping mutation that would normally seize control of their bodies.

Again, your wording is too unclear for this matter.

Have Gey Knights been affected by Chaos in the past?

Yes. Unequivocally. They are not, and have never been, immune to the powers of Chaos agents be they daemonic or human.

Will a Grey Knight decide to abandon the Imperium and consort with daemons?

Never.

You can quibble about what you think incorruptible should mean, but the above two points stand. And it is extremely obvious from the Bloodtide story that it is a power of chaos that may have affected them.

Now, if thats too difficult for you to follow or you think it's bad writing because it doesn't make sense, thats entirely on you. It's logical and internally consistent.

Kanluwen wrote:
The "Destroyer Hive" is not something one contracts like a regular ol' disease. It is not something that infects. It is a manifestation of a Warp power housed within Typhus which kills and then reanimates the victims of said power. Typhus is the only known carrier of the Destroyer Hive at this moment. This, of course, is dependent upon the author though.

And here's the key problem 'dependent on the author'. Sparrow uses it like the common cold at times. And he's writing the books, so...

Kanluwen wrote:
"Legion of One" has nothing to do with Nurgle's plagues. It takes place on Istvaan during the aftermath of the Traitor Legions and the virus bombing they subjected the Loyalists to.

You might want to listen to it then. 'My, what's that three lobed mark upon you?' "Oh, you weren't supposed to see that', and now plague zombies!

No, nothing to do with Nurgle at all here...

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The "Destroyer Hive" is not something one contracts like a regular ol' disease. It is not something that infects. It is a manifestation of a Warp power housed within Typhus which kills and then reanimates the victims of said power. Typhus is the only known carrier of the Destroyer Hive at this moment. This, of course, is dependent upon the author though.

And here's the key problem 'dependent on the author'. Sparrow uses it like the common cold at times. And he's writing the books, so...

Funny because I've got "Flight of the Eisenstein" sitting right in front of me. I don't see anything really making the Destroyer Hive look as though it's "the common cold".

The other plagues stored on board the ship to be used for bombardment? Yeah. Those things look like the dang flu.

Kanluwen wrote:
"Legion of One" has nothing to do with Nurgle's plagues. It takes place on Istvaan during the aftermath of the Traitor Legions and the virus bombing they subjected the Loyalists to.

You might want to listen to it then. 'My, what's that three lobed mark upon you?' "Oh, you weren't supposed to see that', and now plague zombies!

No, nothing to do with Nurgle at all here...

The plagues that you're referring to that were infecting Space Marines even in full armor weren't plagues that Nurgle created. They were the plagues being dropped during the virus bombings.

The rest of it is dealing with a member who makes a deal with Nurgle to survive said plagues.

Subtle but distinct difference.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:This is a terrible equivocation of my argument.

No, it's a logical extension of a very poor argument.

It's difficult to have a reasonable debate when you refuse to even address another's argument. Respond to my argument, not your strawman version of it.

There is no such case for the Grey Knights, and given that the fluff says they're [u incorruptible[/u] (Read: And makes no distinction like the one you're making) there's nothing to suggest that they aren't immune to both a foul influence and a warping mutation that would normally seize control of their bodies.

Again, your wording is too unclear for this matter.

Have Gey Knights been affected by Chaos in the past?

Yes. Unequivocally. They are not, and have never been, immune to the powers of Chaos agents be they daemonic or human.

Will a Grey Knight decide to abandon the Imperium and consort with daemons?

Never.

You can quibble about what you think incorruptible should mean, but the above two points stand. And it is extremely obvious from the Bloodtide story that it is a power of chaos that may have affected them.

Now, if thats too difficult for you to follow or you think it's bad writing because it doesn't make sense, thats entirely on you. It's logical and internally consistent.

Has a Grey Knight ever been so warped by chaotic influence that the have actually started killing or attacking their allies?

Answer. The damn. Question.

Hazardous Harry wrote: Has a Grey Knight ever been so warped by chaotic influence that the have actually started killing or attacking their allies?

Answer. The damn. Question.

Who cares? It's entirely irrelevant to the debate.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote: Has a Grey Knight ever been so warped by chaotic influence that the have actually started killing or attacking their allies?

Answer. The damn. Question.

Who cares? It's entirely irrelevant to the debate.

I agree it is. I think the point being made is that just because they are incorruptible doesn't mean they can't be hurt by Chaos in some way shape or form. Its safe to say that they are probably incorruptible in mind and spirit overall. They would never join Chaos, but they still could be hurt by Chaos. If you are hurt by Chaos that means you aren't fully unaffected by it.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote: Has a Grey Knight ever been so warped by chaotic influence that the have actually started killing or attacking their allies?

Answer. The damn. Question.

Who cares? It's entirely irrelevant to the debate.

Really? Because it sounded like we were discussing whether or not the Bloodtide was a threat to the Grey Knights.

And so far your argument that is was has been more along the lines of "LOL, guys don't question the author, just go with it!"

Can Grey Knights be hurt by powers of Chaos? Yes.

Is the Bloodtide a power of Chaos? Yes.

Could the Grey Knights be affected by it? YES.

Did some Soriritas resist? Yes

Does that indicate that all Grey Knights would have resisted? NO

These are the only pertinent questions. What else is there to discuss?

Red Comet wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote: Has a Grey Knight ever been so warped by chaotic influence that the have actually started killing or attacking their allies?

Answer. The damn. Question.

Who cares? It's entirely irrelevant to the debate.

I agree it is. I think the point being made is that just because they are incorruptible doesn't mean they can't be hurt by Chaos in some way shape or form. Its safe to say that they are probably incorruptible in mind and spirit overall. They would never join Chaos, but they still could be hurt by Chaos. If you are hurt by Chaos that means you aren't fully unaffected by it.

The Codex says this very thing. They can't be lured to chaos, the Agies allow him to wield evil, dark things be it a chaos artifact or dark sorcery without it tainting his soul. It spells out clearly in black and white upon page seven just what "type" of incorruptibility they have. The wording is
"The Gray Knights psychic presences is atheum to creatures of the warp, they are utterly unpalatable to a daemons appetites and thus entirely immune to corruption"
also
"thusly armed a Gray Knight can wield forbidden sorcery, harness tainted artifacts and sour the pages of blasphemous tombs without being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command.'
and also
" Such is the scarcity of a Gray Knights soul, it is all but unpalatable to all but the most powerful warp entities"


Seems to me the book is pretty damned clear on just what type it is talking about. All that can be found upon page 7

Kaldor wrote:Can Grey Knights be forcibly turned against their will by the powers of Chaos? Debatable, but no evidence of it being done before.

Is the Bloodtide a power of Chaos? Yes (Duh). Did it affect the mind or the body? Depends entirely on whether it's the same entity from the novel, or a different cataclysm. There are certainly different symptoms.

Could the Grey Knights be affected by it? DEBATABLE

Spoiler:

LOOKICANUSECAPLOCKSTOO

Did some Soriritas resist? Yes

Does that indicate that all Grey Knights would have resisted? NO. But on the other hand there is little to no evidence that shows the Grey Knights normally would be susceptible either.

These are the only pertinent questions. What else is there to discuss?

Fixed a few things for you. Now grow up and try to engage in a healthy debate like an adult, instead of ignoring everything you don't agree with.

Harry man, I do not know if they have every been warped in that way, the codex says they can be. They can be mutated or infected by something powerful enough. Hell a daemon powerful enough can do really, really bad things to them, just like anyone else.

To use the RPG terms here. A Gray Knight would not gain corruption points. He could still be infected by all number of nasty warp powers and such, but he can't gain corruption by studying lore, or using an artifact or by contact with a warp power or really, really bad gak.

He can be mutated, twisted, infected with some gods awful plague or anything that effects his physical forum. The rules are clear on this.

They simply have incorruptible souls. Nothing more.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Harry man, I do not know if they have every been warped in that way, the codex says they can be. They can be mutated or infected by something powerful enough. Hell a daemon powerful enough can do really, really bad things to them, just like anyone else.

To use the RPG terms here. A Gray Knight would not gain corruption points. He could still be infected by all number of nasty warp powers and such, but he can't gain corruption by studying lore, or using an artifact or by contact with a warp power or really, really bad gak.

He can be mutated, twisted, infected with some gods awful plague or anything that effects his physical forum. The rules are clear on this.

They simply have incorruptible souls. Nothing more.

Fair enough, so if we accept that Grey Knights can be physically corrupted (as opposed to mentally) then we have to look at the evidence that suggests whether or not the Bloodtide physically drove the people affected to kill others, rather than mentally corrupting them. I still do not believe the Bloodtide in the codex refers to the same in the novel, simply because the symptoms and effects are so different. That and the peculiar nature of the novel's version would be worth mentioning in the codex if it was the case.

Kanluwen wrote:
Funny because I've got "Flight of the Eisenstein" sitting right in front of me. I don't see anything really making the Destroyer Hive look as though it's "the common cold".

Might want to turn to page 266 then, where Nurgle sends the Destroyer Hive as an experiment to the Eisenstein and turns all the dead Astartes into plague marines.

Kanluwen wrote:
The plagues that you're referring to that were infecting Space Marines even in full armor weren't plagues that Nurgle created. They were the plagues being dropped during the virus bombings.

The rest of it is dealing with a member who makes a deal with Nurgle to survive said plagues.

Subtle but distinct difference.

Except that, again, you are referring to what happened in Eisenstein, not Legion of One, (which I'm guessing you have not listened to) I'd suggest that you listen to tracks 11 and 12.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Funny because I've got "Flight of the Eisenstein" sitting right in front of me. I don't see anything really making the Destroyer Hive look as though it's "the common cold".

Might want to turn to page 266 then, where Nurgle sends the Destroyer Hive as an experiment to the Eisenstein and turns all the dead Astartes into plague marines.

Not once is the term "Destroyer Hive" used on that page. The Life-Eater Virus is mentioned, but that is all.

Kanluwen wrote:
The plagues that you're referring to that were infecting Space Marines even in full armor weren't plagues that Nurgle created. They were the plagues being dropped during the virus bombings.

The rest of it is dealing with a member who makes a deal with Nurgle to survive said plagues.

Subtle but distinct difference.

Except that, again, you are referring to what happened in Eisenstein, not Legion of One, (which I'm guessing you have not listened to) I'd suggest that you listen to tracks 11 and 12.

Your reference of track 11 is of Rubeo(an Ultramarines Librarian) speaking to an Imperial Army Soldier and then inspecting the bodies of refugees. The bodies with the mark of Nurgle turned into Plaguebearers, the rest of those slain by the Virus bombings were Plague Zombies.

You really need to go back and listen to it again if you're going to cite it.