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Kroothawk wrote:

Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people.

Welcome to 40k, the IoM and the holy Inquisition. It is pretty much par for the coarse for all three. There is evil, Evil, evil, Evil and EVIL ya make a choice and live with one of em.

I think your problem Kroothawk is foisting our 21st century morals onto a 41st millenium situation.

Life is cheap, the Inquisition wields the power and authority of the God Emperor, and the threat from the Alien and Daemon is incredibly great.



Is what they did bad in the 21st century? Yeah,

Is what they did bad in the 41st millenium? Nobody cares, here's a lasgun, the enemy is in that direction.

Pretty much, the Inquisition does much, much worse then that on a Tuesday.

My personal view on the subject is that the Bloodtide sounds much more like Tzenetch than Khorne, I mean it basically gives you 2 choices:

1) You do nothing so.............CHAOS WINZ

2)You defeat it killing innocents.........CHAOS WINZ

It's a Win-WIn situation as I see it


CHAOS IS BEGIN TO GROW

Always seemed to me the halberd wielding GK were slannesh followers

Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people here.

In a universe where that act is used to prevent a world from literally becoming Hell made manifest, it suddenly becomes a case of "sacrifice the few to save the many".

Kanluwen wrote:Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people here.

In a universe where that act is used to prevent a world from literally becoming Hell made manifest, it suddenly becomes a case of "sacrifice the few to save the many".

I doubt the GK put that much thought into it. Honestly, after reading it the first time, I always pictured the gk landing, assessing the situation, then they all realize that the sisters blood is exactly what they need, so they instantly and without warning start killing the Sisters.

The GK don't care is an entire world is killed, as long as Chaos doesn't win. They aren't Spock, they only bigger picture they see is "Chaos not winning." You do realize that any of the non tainted populace who witnessed either the GK or daemons were killed, right? The GK have a habit of killing the inhabitants of the worlds they save.

McNinja wrote:And yes, I'm still going to harp on the fact that the prison of one of the most powerful daemons in existence was left out in the open and forgotten about. You can imagine away all of the other problems with the story, but the magnitude of the feth up on the part of the jailors to maintain watch over such a powerful enemy is astounding. It's like they're cerberus from the mass effect series.

Ten thousand years is a long time. Theres plenty of things that could have happened in such a large and monolithic organisation as the Imperium of Man. This is an organisation where entire worlds are lost due to rounding errors after all.

Kanluwen wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:So there is nothing to suggest that they would have been susceptible to the Bloodtide, where the risk was actually turning sane people in the bloodthirsty murderers, rather than than mutation, deformation or death.

Have you read the Grey Knights book?

There are apparently two things at work in this situtation.
The Bloodtide and something going on within it, called a "goreflood". Without real, in-depth detail it's relatively safe to say that there is both a physical and spiritual component to this causing the madness or death of those exposed.

I'm confused now, people on the Grey Knights side have both confirmed and denied that the Bloodtide in the codex is the same as the novel.

Hazardous Harry wrote:And there's still no evidence of Grey Knights ever being physically corrupted by the warp in any case either, even if that was what the Bloodtide was supposed to do (it wasn't).

You mean other than things like the Vraks books, where a Grey Knight is struck down by a Great Unclean One with pestilence?

"Corruption" is not what you think it is. Being vulnerable to the powers of the Warp does not mean that you are vulnerable to the temptations of its denizens.

But there is still no case of a Grey Knight ever being so "corrupted" by the powers of the warp that they have turned their blades against their own. It hasn't happened, because if it ever had that would be a really big deal.
Premise (1): No Grey Knight has ever been so malformed or corrupted that they have started killing their brethren, even as a mindless slave.
Premise (2): The Bloodtide turned people into mad killers that turned on their fellows, due to the corrupting (either way you want to interpret that) powers of the warp.

If Premise 2 is correct, Premise 1 leads to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Grey Knights were at real risk from the Bloodtide.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:So there is nothing to suggest that they would have been susceptible to the Bloodtide, where the risk was actually turning sane people in the bloodthirsty murderers, rather than than mutation, deformation or death.

Have you read the Grey Knights book?

There are apparently two things at work in this situtation.
The Bloodtide and something going on within it, called a "goreflood". Without real, in-depth detail it's relatively safe to say that there is both a physical and spiritual component to this causing the madness or death of those exposed.

I'm confused now, people on the Grey Knights side have both confirmed and denied that the Bloodtide in the codex is the same as the novel.

There is no confirmation at hand for it.

The Bloodtide, as described in the Grey Knights book, has some kind of secondary effect called a "goreflood".

In either case, my second point is applicable.

Hazardous Harry wrote: But there is still no case of a Grey Knight ever being so "corrupted" by the powers of the warp that they have turned their blades against their own. It hasn't happened, because if it ever had that would be a really big deal.

I'm pretty sure there are cases of Grey Knights being spawned and attacking their brothers, but I can't remember any off the top of my head. If a muscle can be warped, then so can a brain.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Premise (1): No Grey Knight has ever been so malformed or corrupted that they have started killing their brethren, even as a mindless slave.
Premise (2): The Bloodtide turned people into mad killers that turned on their fellows, due to the corrupting (either way you want to interpret that) powers of the warp.

If Premise 2 is correct, Premise 1 leads to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Grey Knights were at real risk from the Bloodtide.

Your position here is so full of holes it's mind boggling. Just as an example:

Your head has never exploded.

Shooting someone in the head makes their head explode.

Therefore, there is no evidence that you are at any risk if you are shot in the head.

Now, you could say that there is evidence that other heads will explode when shot, so it's fair to assume yours will too. But at the same time there are other servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the bloodtide, so it's ALSO fair to say that the Grey Knights will too.

You could also say that the Aegis and Hexagrammic wards will protect them, but who says they will? Maybe they only react to conscious attempts to attack the Grey Knights, in the same way that Void Shields will protect against a lance battery but not against a torpedoe barrage. Maybe the Bloodtide was not something taken into consideration when creating the Aegis and Hexagrammic wards and was thus not protected against, or maybe including protection against it would have required limiting the protection against something else. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the bloodtide could affect them.

Except that the Bloodtide entry really only states the transformation from normal person into person-who-wants-to-sacrifice-other-people.

Also, the Bloodtide entry does say it corrupted the people. It doesn't say physically, and really, the only sentence that offers any real evidence as to what the bloodtide actually did in this scenario is the sentence explaining that the most virtuous were now roaming the streets looking for people to sacrifice. No mention of physical transformation, no mention of any corruption past a change in mentality.

All it needed was one sentence, explaining that the sheer power of one of the most powerful bloodthirsters in existence was able to overcome even the Grey Knights powerful protections. As it is, it comes out of the blue, and since the GK are supposed to be incorruptible to all things mental, and the Bloodtide entry makes no distinction, only saying that the minds of those corrupted were... corrupted, it just comes off as confusing.

McNinja wrote:Also, the Bloodtide entry does say it corrupted the people. It doesn't say physically, and really, the only sentence that offers any real evidence as to what the bloodtide actually did in this scenario is the sentence explaining that the most virtuous were now roaming the streets looking for people to sacrifice. No mention of physical transformation, no mention of any corruption past a change in mentality.

And theres no reason to assume that couldn't also happen to the Grey Knights.

You mean besides the fact that the GK codex specifically indicates that the training and wards that the GK posses makes them incorruptible to mental corruption.

For those who have no clue who Ka'jagga'nath is, this is even more confusing, as they don't even know how insane that guy is. Again, the entry only needed one single sentence saying how the power of Ka'jagga'nath was of such pure Warp-spawned evil that it overcame every ward and protection the GK and Sisters had. And even then, this entry, based on the severity of the situation, should have had a much longer entry. You don't throw Ka'jagga'nath (the Bloodthirster who bested a Primarch in hand to hand combat), Sisters being corrupted, and GK being corruptible into a two paragraph snippet. There is too much going on with too many powerful figures.

The bloodtide was not simply Mental. It was a real psychical threat. The wards do nada vs that.

McNinja wrote:You mean besides the fact that the GK codex specifically indicates that the training and wards that the GK posses makes them incorruptible to mental corruption.

Yep, the mental corruption that would result in them abusing their powers for the benefit of the Chaos powers. The same corruption that is meant when referring to political corruption, or police corruption.

They aren't immune to the effects of the warp, and never have been.

Actually, the Bloodtide does one of 2 things.

1) You become a homocidal maniac. This is something the Gks would NOT have happen to them.

2) You explode in a shower of Gore. This is something that cold definitly happen to the GKs.

The sisters had a 3rd thing happen, nothing.


The Sister's blood was meant to protect against option 2, their wards and purity would protect them from option 1, and the result would be option 3.

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, the Bloodtide does one of 2 things.

1) You become a homocidal maniac. This is something the Gks would NOT have happen to them.

2) You explode in a shower of Gore. This is something that cold definitly happen to the GKs.

The sisters had a 3rd thing happen, nothing.


The Sister's blood was meant to protect against option 2, their wards and purity would protect them from option 1, and the result would be option 3.

Theres no reason to think it wouldn't have turned them into homicidal maniacs. And I don't remember reading about people exploding from it.

Kaldor wrote:

McNinja wrote:You mean besides the fact that the GK codex specifically indicates that the training and wards that the GK posses makes them incorruptible to mental corruption.

Yep, the mental corruption that would result in them abusing their powers for the benefit of the Chaos powers. The same corruption that is meant when referring to political corruption, or police corruption.

They aren't immune to the effects of the warp, and never have been.

Then their armor is pointless and they aren't incorruptible. Also, I have no idea what that first sentence means. How would they abuse their powers for the benefit of Chaos powers? You mean like using daemon weapons? Read the last two paragraphs on page 7 of the Gk codex. It says in plain english that the GK can wield daemonic stuff without fear of being corrupted. There is no reason why that does not apply to the Bloodtide in the GK codex.

Hunterindarkness wrote:The bloodtide was not simply Mental. It was a real psychical threat. The wards do nada vs that.

No, according to both the GK codex and Lexicanum the Bloodtide drove those who came in contact with it insane with bloodlust. No more, no less. They weren't transformed into daemons, they didn't mutate into anything, the only thing that was affected was their mind, which page 7 clearly indicates is incorruptible.

Nope, the blood time was an infection like effect. Not a mental effect. So their mental words do nothing.

Go read page 7, then go read the Bloodtide entry in the GK codex.

The other Bloodtide and the GK bloodtide are NOT the same. That Bloodtide was an infection caused by a machine that literally caused your blood to gush out of your body. The GK Bloodtide is a warp-based corruption that occurs upon coming in contact with the bloodtide.

Let's just say for cause and effect the Grey Knights would 'incorruptable' thing is propaganda, and nothing more. I mean heck one my my CHAOS terminators is a GK model...so...yeah I don't see why they can't be corrupted. Even if one, two, or 50 fell to Chaos they sure as all get out wouldn't tell anybody about it.

McNinja wrote:Go read page 7, then go read the Bloodtide entry in the GK codex.

The other Bloodtide and the GK bloodtide are NOT the same. That Bloodtide was an infection caused by a machine that literally caused your blood to gush out of your body. The GK Bloodtide is a warp-based corruption that occurs upon coming in contact with the bloodtide.

I have, the Bloodtide is not a mental control, it is not a way to seduce you. it infects the blood, corrupts the body not the soul, it runs though you like a nasty, nasty bio-plague and then you kinda go nuts. The GK are not immune to physical effects. The Gray Knights are not immune to physical warp taint, or being infected. They will not fall to chaos but they damned sure will go nuts or die. They only have a immunity to the seductive side, thier souls can not be lured to the other team. However,, they are not immune to the warp or warp effects, they have a resistance to those but are far from immune to them. The goreshed would harm and infect them just as anyone else. They would not start worshiping Chaos, but they could die from it or go nuts..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingmanHighborn wrote:Let's just say for cause and effect the Grey Knights would 'incorruptable' thing is propaganda, and nothing more. I mean heck one my my CHAOS terminators is a GK model...so...yeah I don't see why they can't be corrupted. Even if one, two, or 50 fell to Chaos they sure as all get out wouldn't tell anybody about it.

The book pretty much states their souls can not be corrupted, they are immune to mental psychic effects and "corruption" of the warp. just like some normal humans are also immune and can not be lured to chaos. They are not immune to the warp or its effects, even if they have some resistance to even that. They Gray Knights simply have a very effective and brutal screening process.

KingmanHighborn wrote:Let's just say for cause and effect the Grey Knights would 'incorruptable' thing is propaganda, and nothing more. I mean heck one my my CHAOS terminators is a GK model...so...yeah I don't see why they can't be corrupted. Even if one, two, or 50 fell to Chaos they sure as all get out wouldn't tell anybody about it.

propagando for who? Us? No one in the IoM except for a few select groups even know the GK exist.

McNinja wrote:Then their armor is pointless and they aren't incorruptible.

Look, you're getting all bent out of shape by the word 'corrupt'. Aging is corrupting, getting burned is getting corrupted, getting an illness is being corrupted, suffering an injury is being corrupted. Any kind of alteration or destruction, for any reason, can be considered to be a corruption.

But that isn't what the GK codex is referring to. It is referring to corruption in the every-day context. The same way you'd hear it on the news. They're talking about people abusing their power for their own ends. The codex is talking about Grey Knights performing summoning rituals and aiding Daemons in return for rewards, they're talking about Grey Knights turning a blind eye, giving up or generally being corrupt. That is the immunity Grey Knights have. Some through a great force of will and constant struggle, others because they are simply immune to it.

They aren't, and have never been, completely immune the damage or influence from psykers, daemons or sorcerors. Even with the Aegis and their Hexagrammic wards, the only effect is a -1 to enemy psykers LD tests. It's not even as significant as runes of warding, a psychic hood or whatever it is the Space Wolves have. It's just an extra layer of defence. Think of it like a bullet proof vest: it just adds a bit more protection, against some of the most common injuries and weapons.

His point is:

1) The GKs cannot turn, due to the forces of Chaos, against the Imperium.

OR

2) They can.

The Bloodtide is a force of chaos that turns you into a person who wants to murder loyalist Imperials.

So either:

1) The GKs are protected against it (without the blood of innocents / magic wards / flying green cat / whathaveyou)

OR

2) Fallen GKs who have killed / betrayed the Imperium exist.

Unit1126PLL wrote:His point is:

1) The GKs cannot turn, due to the forces of Chaos, against the Imperium.

OR

2) They can.

The Bloodtide is a force of chaos that turns you into a person who wants to murder loyalist Imperials

Your language needs to be more clear. 'turn' is too ambiguous for this debate.

A Grey Knight will never decide to serve the forces of Chaos.

The Bloodtide does not present people with a decision, it robs them of it. It may have robbed the GK of that decision also, but they warded themselves to prevent it happening.

For us to understand why the grey knights are considered incorruptible, and why this is still compatible with the events of the bloodtide, we need to think about what components of the humans there are in this universe. You have the mind, the soul and the body, and each of them can be corrupted in a different way. The mind is seduced, then soul is stolen or consumed, and the body is corrupted (In the sense of mutations and physical takeovers). The grey knights have a number of things in place to protect them. Their mind is protected by their mental fortitude, and their wards and seals. This makes them immune to the temptation of the warp. They will not be tempted to join the other side, or to fight for chaos. This is what allows them to use daemon weapons. When daemon weapons are being used, BY AND LARGE (Ie. Not all of the time), the weapon will be attempting to seduce you over to chaos, or take over your mind by force through possession. The Grey knight is immune to the seduction, as the daemon has nothing it wants, and the possession it is resistant to, thanks to the wards and the aegis etc. The soul, is also protected. Their souls have been stated to be anathema to the daemons, hurting them simply by being around. They are also helped by their physical protections, like the aegis. This makes them resistant to being possessed, and other such warp nasties like having their souls eaten. Their bodies, however, are the least protected when it comes to chaos. They can be corrupted with mutations: We know this as they can still be made daemonspawn, and also as there is little to state that they might have any resistance beyond their armor from the matter affecting properties of the warp. So, lets use the daemonspawn idea again. They have been hit by a burst of the warp, and now they have become a daemonspawn. Their body is twisted beyond all recognition, and, the important part, their PHYSICAL brain. Now, you can have all the mental fortitude in the world, but thats not going to help if your brain is literally changed on a physical level. They have not TURNED to chaos, they have had their personalities wiped, their very person destroyed, and their body hijacked by an animal intelligence. For all intents and purposes, they have been killed. This is what happened with the bloodtide. It was an entirely PHYSICAL effect, caused by a WARP source. Their armor, their wards and their training couldn't protect from the physical aspect of it, so it would have been able to enter their bodies and mutate them.

Kroothawk wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Well it never says murdered. It says put to the sword. The way I read it is they needed virgin blood and the cannon fodder space Nuns provided it.

The text says, their first act was to turn their swords upon the surviving Sororitas.
Try to kill someone in real life and then tell the judge it wasn't murder because:
1.) they might have given their life freely if asked.
2.) their life is worthless anyway (cannon fodder)
3.) the voices told you that it was necessary.
Good luck with that

Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people.

Wow, and the argument just turned from justifying why brainwashed fanatical killing machines might kill another group of brainwashed fanatics in order to stop some fantastical daemonic entity/plague, to trying to get away with murder in a real-life court. There's being obtuse on purpose, and then there's just being ridiculous. The Imperium chews through thousands, if not millions, of "innocents and allies" every day, from the psykers mulched down to feed the Emperor or power the Celestial Choir, to the countless guardsmen callously thrown to their deaths in never ending wars. That's what keeps the great machine going.

Anyway, there is precedent in the Grey Knights Omnibus, where a Grey Knight who is stripped of all his wards manages to survive on a daemon planet by burying his personality deep with his mind, and letting his body basically go on auto-pilot. For a while there, he essentially functions as a Khorne berserker, mindlessly slaughtering all who are put in front of him, yet he never gave himself over to the worship and glorification of Chaos. Then, at an opportune time, the personality resurfaced, and basically he was able to engineer the downfall of an entire planet full of daemons.

So again, for the needlessly pedantic among us, there are varying types of corruption. A Grey Knight can never be turned or corrupted from the light of the Emperor and his appointed task. That's why a daemon can never tempt a Grey Knight with their promises, because the only thing a Grey Knight desires is to serve the Emperor by annihilating Chaos. Beyond that mental component, Grey Knights have NEVER been 100% immune to any warp effect, not in any edition of the fluff, not even when they were super-Puritan.