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Grey Templar wrote:I'm sorry, where does it say the GKs were laughing maniacally while brutally slaughtering the sisters to bathe in their blood?
All it says is that they killed them and used their blood as an ingrediant in an anti-bloodtide lotion.
There is 0 evidence of malice or cruel intent.

You mean there is a chance it was a benevolent mass murder of innocents?

Damn McNinja, fine alteration of the fluff there!

Kroothawk wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I'm sorry, where does it say the GKs were laughing maniacally while brutally slaughtering the sisters to bathe in their blood?
All it says is that they killed them and used their blood as an ingrediant in an anti-bloodtide lotion.
There is 0 evidence of malice or cruel intent.

You mean there is a chance it was a benevolent mass murder of innocents?

Well it never says murdered. It says put to the sword. The way I read it is they needed virgin blood and the cannon fodder space Nuns provided it. The SoB would have most likely given their lives freely, they had being doing that already and loosing pretty damned badly. So why not die in a ritual for the emperor to insure success? Not all that uncommon a thing in 40k at all.

McNinja wrote:
Bloodtide is not internally consistent. Or rather, the GK codex is not. One of the two. Either way, I still don't know why the incorruptible and best-defense-against-mystical-and-psychic-attacks-in-the-IoM GK needed a talisman of purity....

Really, I'm puzzled why people read "incorruptible" that GK have some sort of MythiPower(tm) which makes them immune to all things chaotic. They are incorruptible because they are willing to go any lengths to avoid being corrupted. Such as, I don't know, maybe killing some innocents to get their blood for a spell which will protect them from Chaos. That sounds exactly what Imperium would do, exactly what a fanatic daemon hunter would do...exactly what I envision Grey Knights could do.

I mean, if they actually had some sort of "Mythi-Power" giving them 100% protection from Chaos, as some people suggest they have, that would be seriously lame, crappy storytelling, and make them awfully boring. It also begs the question, if they do have that kind of immunity, why they are vulnerable to Chaos powers and spells? I mean, you can make a Chaos Spawn out of a Grey Knight.

I guess some people are upset that the new codex reveals that Grey Knights are NOT force of angelic good, happiness and unicorns.

Now, I do think that GK codex is pretty poorly written, but Bloodtide is actually one of the better passages.

Backfire wrote:Really, I'm puzzled why people read "incorruptible" that GK have some sort of MythiPower(tm) which makes them immune to all things chaotic

Indeed. Corrupted has many meanings. An iron girder can be corrupted. A politician can be corrupted. Just last week I had some files on a USB stick that were corrupted.

Chaos doesn't force people to serve it. It offers things they want: Martial power, political power, sensory gratification, and whatever the hell it is that Nurgle offers people. It offers them untold power, and in return asks that you do its bidding. That is corruption. That is the taint of Chaos.

That is what Grey Knights have never succumbed to. The vile whispers of Chaos fall on deaf ears.

They aren't immune to psychic powers or chaos powers or anything of the sort, and although the Aegis and Hexagrammic wards certainly help in that regard they are by no means a cure-all stop-all impenetrable defense.

Is there any fluff where Grey Knights have been corrupted and turned their blades against their allies without warning?

Hazardous Harry wrote:Is there any fluff where Grey Knights have been corrupted and turned their blades against their allies without warning?

Not published, although some folks like to twist some things written into such, but nothing has been published with them doing so.

Then there is absolutely no evidence to support Kaldor's definition of 'incorruptible'.

EDIT: And in fact points to the entirely opposite conclusion.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Then there is absolutely no evidence to support Kaldor's definition of 'incorruptible'.

EDIT: And in fact points to the entirely opposite conclusion.

Except ya know..the definition. And how corruption works in 40k. Some one can be "incorruptible" but not immune to the warp. it simply means they can not be tempted to the darkside, so to speak. Their bodies are still as valuable as anyone else to the taint of Chaos. They can be twisted, harmed, mutated and down right killed by its touch. What they can not be is turned or seduced by it. which is why they use wards and such.

So there is nothing to suggest that they would have been susceptible to the Bloodtide, where the risk was actually turning sane people into bloodthirsty murderers, rather than than mutation, deformation or death.

And there's still no evidence of Grey Knights ever being physically corrupted by the warp in any case either, even if that was what the Bloodtide was supposed to do (it wasn't).

Hazardous Harry wrote:So there is nothing to suggest that they would have been susceptible to the Bloodtide, where the risk was actually turning sane people in the bloodthirsty murderers, rather than than mutation, deformation or death.

Have you read the Grey Knights book?

There are apparently two things at work in this situtation.
The Bloodtide and something going on within it, called a "goreflood". Without real, in-depth detail it's relatively safe to say that there is both a physical and spiritual component to this causing the madness or death of those exposed.

Hazardous Harry wrote:And there's still no evidence of Grey Knights ever being physically corrupted by the warp in any case either, even if that was what the Bloodtide was supposed to do (it wasn't).

You mean other than things like the Vraks books, where a Grey Knight is struck down by a Great Unclean One with pestilence?

"Corruption" is not what you think it is. Being vulnerable to the powers of the Warp does not mean that you are vulnerable to the temptations of its denizens.

Kanluwen wrote:

"Corruption" is not what you think it is

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means

sorry could not resist.

Backfire wrote:

McNinja wrote:
Bloodtide is not internally consistent. Or rather, the GK codex is not. One of the two. Either way, I still don't know why the incorruptible and best-defense-against-mystical-and-psychic-attacks-in-the-IoM GK needed a talisman of purity....

Really, I'm puzzled why people read "incorruptible" that GK have some sort of MythiPower(tm) which makes them immune to all things chaotic. They are incorruptible because they are willing to go any lengths to avoid being corrupted. Such as, I don't know, maybe killing some innocents to get their blood for a spell which will protect them from Chaos. That sounds exactly what Imperium would do, exactly what a fanatic daemon hunter would do...exactly what I envision Grey Knights could do.

I mean, if they actually had some sort of "Mythi-Power" giving them 100% protection from Chaos, as some people suggest they have, that would be seriously lame, crappy storytelling, and make them awfully boring. It also begs the question, if they do have that kind of immunity, why they are vulnerable to Chaos powers and spells? I mean, you can make a Chaos Spawn out of a Grey Knight.

I guess some people are upset that the new codex reveals that Grey Knights are NOT force of angelic good, happiness and unicorns.

Now, I do think that GK codex is pretty poorly written, but Bloodtide is actually one of the better passages.

because the GK codex makes zero distinction otherwise. I see what you're saying, but the GK codex does not make the effort to differentiate as you and Kaldor do between physical and mental corruption.

Actually it does. Or they would not need wards.

The sisters of battle where immune to it because they where female, grey knights are all male the disease was resisted due to sisters being bit more then the average human + female. The grey knights lacked female DNA in their blood so used the sisters.

There that could be a valid reason why even though the grey knights cant be corrupted and have a super immune system that they still needed blood from the sisters. (First paragraph made up but people been asking for a reason why grey knights might need extra immunity)

Bassline wrote:The sisters of battle where immune to it because they where female, grey knights are all male the disease was resisted due to sisters being bit more then the average human + female. The grey knights lacked female DNA in their blood so used the sisters.

There that could be a valid reason why even though the grey knights cant be corrupted and have a super immune system that they still needed blood from the sisters. (First paragraph made up but people been asking for a reason why grey knights might need extra immunity)

So the DNA of the sisters suddenly transfers to them?

Sigh Magic talisman guys. Magic freaking talisman. its says right there in black in white. Also you know this thread has made me go back over and look at that small paragraph. It never once says the sisters were immune or even resistant. all it says is the Gray knights needed innocent blood.

Bassline wrote:The sisters of battle where immune to it because they where female, grey knights are all male the disease was resisted due to sisters being bit more then the average human + female. The grey knights lacked female DNA in their blood so used the sisters.

There that could be a valid reason why even though the grey knights cant be corrupted and have a super immune system that they still needed blood from the sisters. (First paragraph made up but people been asking for a reason why grey knights might need extra immunity)

really? I didn't see that in the bloodtide entry. Also, that doesn't make sense.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Actually it does. Or they would not need wards.

actually, no, it doesn't, and they need wards because that's what helps protect them. They should not need additional wards simply because some writer thinks they should. All it says is that they need a talisman of purity for some arbitrary protection that somehow the gk know will protect them.

That "some writer" was the one who said they had the wards you say cover everything. He seems to disagree with you. Also page 7 specifies thatits the Gray knights psychic that is uncorrectable. It says nothing about the body only his mind. If you can find where it says they can not be ever touched physically by the warp I would like to see the page number and such. I want to read it.

Just out of interest: people are saying the Grey KNights needed the blood of innocents to create a barrier against the Bloodtide. But in what way are the Sisters innocent? They murder people for a living.

Durza wrote:Just out of interest: people are saying the Grey KNights needed the blood of innocents to create a barrier against the Bloodtide. But in what way are the Sisters innocent? They murder people for a living.

An archaic term for Virgin was an 'innocent" They are "Pure" and "Innocent" as long as they are. The SoB are chaste nuns if I recall. And I think that is what the rite called for, which is why the sisters were used. The story never says the soB were immune or resistant. Only that a few remained as must had been corrupted by the tide.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Durza wrote:Just out of interest: people are saying the Grey KNights needed the blood of innocents to create a barrier against the Bloodtide. But in what way are the Sisters innocent? They murder people for a living.

An archaic term for Virgin was an 'innocent" They are "Pure" and "Innocent" as long as they are. The SoB are chaste nuns if I recall. And I think that is what the rite called for, which is why the sisters were used. The story never says the soB were immune or resistant. Only that a few remained as must had been corrupted by the tide.

As long as I've heard it mentioned I have never seen anything stating that they are chaste. That said, I haven't read all the fluff in the 40K universe so I could be missing something.

Pretty sure they are also known as "The brides of the emperor " and Mimic catholic Nuns in many ways. I have not read upon on them much but I was under that impression, maybe because they call their fortress/training center/ homes "convents" and live a Nun like exsistance, where they do not deal with outsiders and spends days training or in prayer. I guess for the majority of them a official requirement is kinda a moot point.

The sob are basically nuns with guns. Anyway, page 7 does specify mind not body. Oopsie doopsies. Still, I like how the GK found the bloodtide, knew instantly that they needed a talisman of purity (because as we all know GK aren't pure), and knew in an instant that the blood of the SoB was absolutely pure and would work great.

And yes, I'm still going to harp on the fact that the prison of one of the most powerful daemons in existence was left out in the open and forgotten about. You can imagine away all of the other problems with the story, but the magnitude of the feth up on the part of the jailors to maintain watch over such a powerful enemy is astounding. It's like they're cerberus from the mass effect series.

SoB fluff is vague about the state of their virginity and pureness, but as they are based on Catholic Nuns I think they would definitly be chaste.


Anyway, until GW publishes a detailed description of the various ingrediants that go into making the GK's sacred oils and potions we won't know what the Blood actually does. All we do know is that it was required and the GKs took what they needed. I imagine time was of the essence and the Sisters were at hand for collection.

The fluff for the Sisters states that they "cleave only unto the Emperor" which, yes, is a vow of chastity. What they do before taking the Oath of Suffrage, though, is anyone's guess.

McNinja wrote:because the GK codex makes zero distinction otherwise. I see what you're saying, but the GK codex does not make the effort to differentiate as you and Kaldor do between physical and mental corruption.

So why aren't GK 100% immune to all Chaos powers and sorceries which target them? They have never been that, game-wise, even in pre-Ward codex?

I mean, is that sloppy rules design then or what?

Psienesis wrote:The fluff for the Sisters states that they "cleave only unto the Emperor" which, yes, is a vow of chastity. What they do before taking the Oath of Suffrage, though, is anyone's guess.

Quote, please

Not disbelief, I just want to read it

McNinja wrote:The sob are basically nuns with guns. Anyway, page 7 does specify mind not body. Oopsie doopsies. Still, I like how the GK found the bloodtide, knew instantly that they needed a talisman of purity (because as we all know GK aren't pure), and knew in an instant that the blood of the SoB was absolutely pure and would work great.

Does not say it was instantly. someone called them, the Inquisition sent them. They also have vast library of arcane lore and are very knowledgeable about way and rites to ward off and weaken the warp. It is a good bet that that rite was written down somewhere or something very much like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I knew I seen it somewhere. Its from a FFG RPG book, but page 41 of the inquisitors handbook does in fact state they are chaste. I believe blood of maryters also covers them but I do not have that book myself. The exsact quotes are

"Adepta Sororitas are courageous, pious, self-sacrificing, chaste and faithful. They are fanatics, bound by harsh and restrictive religious oaths and ingrained zealotry. " and "The power of the purity, will and faith of an Adepta Sororitas
sister is a tangible and real thing, capable of shielding her from the psyker’s power or the Daemon’s wrath and enabling her to perform deeds that are nothing short of miraculous."

It also should be noted that DH SoB are a bit more badass then what we are left with in GW fiction. More Job or Arc and less canon fodder.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Well it never says murdered. It says put to the sword. The way I read it is they needed virgin blood and the cannon fodder space Nuns provided it.

The text says, their first act was to turn their swords upon the surviving Sororitas.
Try to kill someone in real life and then tell the judge it wasn't murder because:
1.) they might have given their life freely if asked.
2.) their life is worthless anyway (cannon fodder)
3.) the voices told you that it was necessary.
Good luck with that

Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people.