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Look, look those Sisters are purer than us

KILL THEM!!!!

Hazardous Harry wrote:A further question, if the blood was only an ingredient why would the killing of the sisters be necessary? You can get a good few pints of blood out of a person without killing them.

Maybe they needed the lifes blood. Or maybe they just considered the Sisters to be infected but not yet showing symptoms, and to be executed and unstrustworthy. Who knows.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:A further question, if the blood was only an ingredient why would the killing of the sisters be necessary? You can get a good few pints of blood out of a person without killing them.

Maybe they needed the lifes blood. Or maybe they just considered the Sisters to be infected but not yet showing symptoms, and to be executed and unstrustworthy. Who knows.

See, this is your problem. A critical thinker doesn't just throw up their hands when confronted with a dodgy piece of writing and say "who knows?". Just because it's got the GW logo on it doesn't mean you can't criticise the obvious lack of thought put into it.

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

ADB has written a book about the Grey Knights, called 'The Emperor's Gift' and out in June of this year officially.

I would bet my mortgage that it won't feature Dragio bestriding the warp to leave some graffiti on Mortarion, or 'bloodtides'

Pacific wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

ADB has written a book about the Grey Knights, called 'The Emperor's Gift' and out in June of this year officially.

I would bet my mortgage that it won't feature Dragio bestriding the warp to leave some graffiti on Mortarion, or 'bloodtides'

Yes, because BL authors don't usually feature Codex characters in their novels.

I love this. Someone mentions Bloodtide and BAM, six page thread.

My two cents? It's a dumb, poorly written, and slightly misogynistic piece of fluff that makes the Sisters look like lambs to a slaughter and the Grey Knights like raving psychos who can't be arsed to use their own protections and are clearly capable of being corrupted.

The hell with the difference between physical and mental corruption. The GK codex states that they are clearly above both, through mental conditioning and their swanky armor.

There was no indication of any sort or blood being required to turn away the corruption, nor is there anything indicating exactly what the Bloodtide does. All it says is that those who are corrupted roam the streets looking for innocents to slaughter on the tainted altar.

So what did the GK do? They slaughtered innocents, then decorated themselves in the innocent blood.

Oh, and "needing a talisman of purity?" Yeah, feth that. What happened to GK being pure? I thought they could never be corrupted, and we thus pure as the dickens. Hint: they can't, and are, so slaughtering the SoB was both pointless and immesurably stupid.

This story is the Ultima 9 of the GK codex.

Kanluwen wrote:

Pacific wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

ADB has written a book about the Grey Knights, called 'The Emperor's Gift' and out in June of this year officially.

I would bet my mortgage that it won't feature Dragio bestriding the warp to leave some graffiti on Mortarion, or 'bloodtides'

Yes, because BL authors don't usually feature Codex characters in their novels.

Stop being deliberately obtuse Kan, you know what I meant by that comment

Pacific wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Pacific wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

ADB has written a book about the Grey Knights, called 'The Emperor's Gift' and out in June of this year officially.

I would bet my mortgage that it won't feature Dragio bestriding the warp to leave some graffiti on Mortarion, or 'bloodtides'

Yes, because BL authors don't usually feature Codex characters in their novels.

Stop being deliberately obtuse Kan, you know what I meant by that comment

Obtuse? Don't you get acute with me, fella!



But yeah. I don't understand the big hubbub about the GK codex. You all know me. I'm a fluffnut. I'm very vocal in what I dislike.
But for some reason...the GK codex is fine to me, things like Canis Wolfborn are relatively acceptable(if silly) but the whole constant stream of Blood Ravens=Thousand Sons OHEMGEE is just downright unlikeable to me.

Omegus wrote:
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Of course, Ward's GK would go Leeroy Jenkins. But the likelihood that Sisters were gaining an upper hand in battle against anything is frankly ludicrously small. Look at almost every other piece of Sisters fluff post-Vandire. All they do is die. They are worse than guardsmen.

On that note, I'm forced to agree with you. I sometimes wonder what would happen if the IG Stormtroopers were given the Sisters' bolters and power armor, instead of carapace armor and angry flashlights. Would that make them more badass than they already are? Would they be worth their points cost? Would the Sisters suddenly all die at the hands of some rabid cherubim and ornery servo-skulls?

Seriously, the writers at GW need to stop using the Sisters as the Imperium's cannon fodder. The fluff is starting to smell more than a tad misogynistic...

On a related note, I think calling the GK "Knights of Khorne" is going a tad far. I agree the whole Bloodtide thing is pants on head special, there is not nearly enough information given for it to make any kind of logical sense, and GKs being vulnerable to corruption directly contradicts every single page of the rest of the Codex.

That being said, I think it's far more reasonable to brand the GK as Radicals, rather than Khorne-worshipping cultists. They used a ritual of "questionable" origin to shield themselves from a warp effect they may or may not have needed shielding from in the first place. They killed their own allies to do it, who may, may , MAY have volunteered for it (it doesn't say one way or the other, but that's the PROBLEM with the entry... it leaves far, far too much out for it to make ANY kind of sense) and they use daemon and xeno tech all the time. These are some of the clearest signs of Radicalism in the Inquisition. Can we just split the difference and call the GKs "Radicals" instead of "Knights of Khorne"...?

I mean, it should satisfy everyone: as Radicals, they are insane and misguided, and cruising for a Denounciation (and Excommunication) but as Radicals, they are still (ostensibly) working FOR the Imperium. Besides, you can argue against Khorne worship, but you cannot argue against Radicalism (well, you can't argue succesfully, because all the evidence is against you). The Grey Knights are a Radical faction. Now all the GK haters can be happy, because Radicals always fall to Chaos, and the GK lovers can be happy because Radicals are the most successful at fighting Chaos, because they use all of Chaos' dirty tricks against it.

Hazardous Harry wrote:See, this is your problem. A critical thinker doesn't just throw up their hands when confronted with a dodgy piece of writing and say "who knows?". Just because it's got the GW logo on it doesn't mean you can't criticise the obvious lack of thought put into it.

I would argue that the piece has been left deliberately vague so that we can fill in the gaps with our own imaginations. You choose to imagine that there was no reason for it.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:See, this is your problem. A critical thinker doesn't just throw up their hands when confronted with a dodgy piece of writing and say "who knows?". Just because it's got the GW logo on it doesn't mean you can't criticise the obvious lack of thought put into it.

I would argue that the piece has been left deliberately vague so that we can fill in the gaps with our own imaginations. You choose to imagine that there was no reason for it.

I would argue that you're wrong, and that's not how this works. This isn't a homebrew codex, you can't just make stuff up to make a poorly written and all around bad piece of fluff make sense. That's grasping for straws where there are none.

McNinja wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:See, this is your problem. A critical thinker doesn't just throw up their hands when confronted with a dodgy piece of writing and say "who knows?". Just because it's got the GW logo on it doesn't mean you can't criticise the obvious lack of thought put into it.

I would argue that the piece has been left deliberately vague so that we can fill in the gaps with our own imaginations. You choose to imagine that there was no reason for it.

I would argue that you're wrong, and that's not how this works. This isn't a homebrew codex, you can't just make stuff up to make a poorly written and all around bad piece of fluff make sense. That's grasping for straws where there are none.

I am gonna agree with Kaldor here. Codex seems vague, most 40k stuff seems vague in fact. Well vauge, poorly written take you pick.


You only have two options,
1: It was thought to be needed
2: It was not needed and they did it for kicks.

No other outcomes really exist. If you except that in setting the GK thought it or you can not. You can except it or make up reason why its wrong. I see alot of the anti-folks making up things and doing alot of speculation, yet slamming the pro guys for speculating why it was needed.

Some things are vague on purpose (see Trazyn the Infinite "giant man in baroque power armor" and Legion of the Damned) and somethings are vague because they aren't all that well written (see Kaldor Draigo and Bloodtide).

Sometimes, all that needs to be said is a single sentence, and that sentence makes people go "oh, wow, this is mysterious. I wonder whats really going on?". Kaldor Draigo defeating Mortarion and vandalizing his heart with a sword, along with the wholesale slaughter of an entire convent of SoB (well, the ones who didn't get corrputed, because as we all know SoB fall to Chaos faster than Guardsman on a Daemonworld) purely for some fake, unprecedented, and completely unneeded "talisman of purity" do not fit the bill.

McNinja wrote:Kaldor Draigo defeating Mortarion and vandalizing his heart with a sword, along with the wholesale slaughter of an entire convent of SoB (well, the ones who didn't get corrputed, because as we all know SoB fall to Chaos faster than Guardsman on a Daemonworld) purely for some fake, unprecedented, and completely unneeded "talisman of purity" do not fit the bill.

Those items are deliberately vague, and it was a good idea to make them vague. I love the idea of Mortarion being thrown down after a titanic struggle between his forces and Grey Knight strike force. And the Bloodtide makes perfect sense. I really don't understand how people can't think it makes sense.

Kaldor has got a point in pointing out the relationship between GW and the tactic of leaving things vague.

They love doing this.

everything from "What is the true nature of the Emperor? to "Are the Tau really insidious manipulators or really really naieve aliens?" etc. etc.

Leaving all the biq questions wide open allows everyone to have their cake and eat it too.

Bloodtide makes sense of you enjoy the thought of GK being maniacal tools who will willingly slaughter anyone and anything if they think it might possibly need to be dead. And don't like SoB.

Except Mortarion wasn't thrown down after a titanic struggle with a GK strike force, he and Draigo duelled, Draigo beat his arse and wrote on his heart. Because as we all know, Daemon Primarchs are pushovers, especially when inside the warp. I'm not saying it's impossible, since the GK are daemonhunters, but the fact it is given so little attention boggles the mind. I highly doubt Matt Ward, or whoever wrote that piece of fluff thought any further than "yeah, Draigo's a badass. He can totally kill a daemon primarch of Nurgle and start writing on its major organs like he's taking notes on how to be the next Grand Master." They didn't take into account that A) Mortarion is in fact stronger when inside the warp, B)Mortarion is a DP of Nurgle, who generally makes his worshipers far tougher than normal, and C) that Draigo was alone. Either that or they did, and figured that it would make Draigo look so hardcore that he was able to take down the toughest of all of the Daemon Primarchs by himself.

Then Bloodtide. Not only does it not make sense based on how incorruptible to rest of the codex claims they are, but their armor is specifically designed to ward off daemons and their spells/powers. A talisman of purity is 100% superfluous when you realize that their armor provides the same exact function without having to slaughter a convent of Sisters. Also:
-Exactly what the Bloodtide did was never fully explained (it is apparently entirely different from the other Bloodtide).
-Exactly what the corruption did was never fully explained outside of "made people get other people and sacrifice them on a tainted altar."
-Why the Gk needed a talisman of purity was never explained.
-How a prison containing KA'JAGGA'NATH, ONE OF KHORNE'S MOST POWERFUL BLOODTHIRSTERS was completely and entirely both forgotten and unguarded is not explained and this by itself makes zero sense.
-Why the Sister's blood was the talisman of purity was never explained.
-Pure blood is not longer pure when you mix it with things, the same way pure water is no longer pure when you put anything else in it. The GK basically killed the sisters, tainted their blood with their oils, then slathered themselves in said blood/oil combination, completely negating the "pure" aspect of it and killing a bunch of innocents in the process. But that doesn't matter, because the GK and Inqusition killed a couple billion innocent people because they might learn about daemons.

I'm sorry, where does it say the GKs were laughing maniacally while brutally slaughtering the sisters to bathe in their blood?

All it says is that they killed them and used their blood as an ingrediant in an anti-bloodtide lotion.

There is 0 evidence of malice or cruel intent.

McNinja wrote:Bloodtide makes sense of you enjoy the thought of GK being maniacal tools who will willingly slaughter anyone and anything if they think it might possibly need to be dead. And don't like SoB.

Except Mortarion wasn't thrown down after a titanic struggle with a GK strike force, he and Draigo duelled, Draigo beat his arse and wrote on his heart. Because as we all know, Daemon Primarchs are pushovers, especially when inside the warp. I'm not saying it's impossible, since the GK are daemonhunters, but the fact it is given so little attention boggles the mind. I highly doubt Matt Ward, or whoever wrote that piece of fluff thought any further than "yeah, Draigo's a badass. He can totally kill a daemon primarch of Nurgle and start writing on its major organs like he's taking notes on how to be the next Grand Master." They didn't take into account that A) Mortarion is in fact stronger when inside the warp, B)Mortarion is a DP of Nurgle, who generally makes his worshipers far tougher than normal, and C) that Draigo was alone. Either that or they did, and figured that it would make Draigo look so hardcore that he was able to take down the toughest of all of the Daemon Primarchs by himself.

Then Bloodtide. Not only does it not make sense based on how incorruptible to rest of the codex claims they are, but their armor is specifically designed to ward off daemons and their spells/powers. A talisman of purity is 100% superfluous when you realize that their armor provides the same exact function without having to slaughter a convent of Sisters. Also:
-Exactly what the Bloodtide did was never fully explained (it is apparently entirely different from the other Bloodtide).
-Exactly what the corruption did was never fully explained outside of "made people get other people and sacrifice them on a tainted altar."
-Why the Gk needed a talisman of purity was never explained.
-How a prison containing KA'JAGGA'NATH, ONE OF KHORNE'S MOST POWERFUL BLOODTHIRSTERS was completely and entirely both forgotten and unguarded is not explained and this by itself makes zero sense.
-Why the Sister's blood was the talisman of purity was never explained.
-Pure blood is not longer pure when you mix it with things, the same way pure water is no longer pure when you put anything else in it. The GK basically killed the sisters, tainted their blood with their oils, then slathered themselves in said blood/oil combination, completely negating the "pure" aspect of it and killing a bunch of innocents in the process. But that doesn't matter, because the GK and Inqusition killed a couple billion innocent people because they might learn about daemons.

This is the same problem I see with almost all the Ward hate. A chronic lack of imagination coupled with bizarre assumptions. I'm going to leave Draigo aside at the moment, but let me just say you're wrong on a whole bunch of stuff. Start another thread if you want.

Regards to the Bloodtide:

Grey Knights are incorruptible. You assume this means they cannot be affected by any Chaos powers, and this is incorrect.

Their Aegis and Hexagrammic wards offer a measure of protection. You assume that this provides adequate protection against all Chaos powers, and this is incorrect.

I mean we know the Grey Knights are beyond corruption, but do they themselves know it? I started a conversation in another thread about how the Imperium of Man has limited knowledge of their own tech. So while it is quite possible that they are immune to all chaos taint, both physical, mental, and spiritual, it is likely they have no idea how or why it works. Super soldier, demon ass kickers doesn't mean they have a high IQ. End of the day they are just grunts with some fancy power armor and mental toughness training.
Also I heard the SoB refused to go out with them so that is also why they killed them.

Dannyevilguy wrote:I mean we know the Grey Knights are beyond corruption, but do they themselves know it?

It wouldn't matter. Immune to the temptations of Chaos doesn't mean they can't be affected by Chaos powers.

Dannyevilguy wrote:I mean we know the Grey Knights are beyond corruption, but do they themselves know it? I started a conversation in another thread about how the Imperium of Man has limited knowledge of their own tech. So while it is quite possible that they are immune to all chaos taint, both physical, mental, and spiritual, it is likely they have no idea how or why it works. Super soldier, demon ass kickers doesn't mean they have a high IQ. End of the day they are just grunts with some fancy power armor and mental toughness training.
Also I heard the SoB refused to go out with them so that is also why they killed them.

You heard wrong.

The passage in question is only a paragraph and it basically says "Bloodtide emerged on Planet, entire population slain or driven mad, some SoB were not destroyed or driven mad, GKs showed up, GKs needed a talisman of protection, they put the surviving sisters to the sword and used their blood to make a protective talisman, Bloodtide destroyed"

There is no specific information as to the events of that day. We arn't even told the names of those involved.

Grey Templar wrote:I'm sorry, where does it say the GKs were laughing maniacally while brutally slaughtering the sisters to bathe in their blood?

All it says is that they killed them and used their blood as an ingrediant in an anti-bloodtide lotion.

There is 0 evidence of malice or cruel intent.

Perhaps maniacal may not have been the correct word. They killed them without hesitation for no reason other than some vague talisman.

Kaldor wrote:

McNinja wrote:Bloodtide makes sense of you enjoy the thought of GK being maniacal tools who will willingly slaughter anyone and anything if they think it might possibly need to be dead. And don't like SoB.

Except Mortarion wasn't thrown down after a titanic struggle with a GK strike force, he and Draigo duelled, Draigo beat his arse and wrote on his heart. Because as we all know, Daemon Primarchs are pushovers, especially when inside the warp. I'm not saying it's impossible, since the GK are daemonhunters, but the fact it is given so little attention boggles the mind. I highly doubt Matt Ward, or whoever wrote that piece of fluff thought any further than "yeah, Draigo's a badass. He can totally kill a daemon primarch of Nurgle and start writing on its major organs like he's taking notes on how to be the next Grand Master." They didn't take into account that A) Mortarion is in fact stronger when inside the warp, B)Mortarion is a DP of Nurgle, who generally makes his worshipers far tougher than normal, and C) that Draigo was alone. Either that or they did, and figured that it would make Draigo look so hardcore that he was able to take down the toughest of all of the Daemon Primarchs by himself.

Then Bloodtide. Not only does it not make sense based on how incorruptible to rest of the codex claims they are, but their armor is specifically designed to ward off daemons and their spells/powers. A talisman of purity is 100% superfluous when you realize that their armor provides the same exact function without having to slaughter a convent of Sisters. Also:
-Exactly what the Bloodtide did was never fully explained (it is apparently entirely different from the other Bloodtide).
-Exactly what the corruption did was never fully explained outside of "made people get other people and sacrifice them on a tainted altar."
-Why the Gk needed a talisman of purity was never explained.
-How a prison containing KA'JAGGA'NATH, ONE OF KHORNE'S MOST POWERFUL BLOODTHIRSTERS was completely and entirely both forgotten and unguarded is not explained and this by itself makes zero sense.
-Why the Sister's blood was the talisman of purity was never explained.
-Pure blood is not longer pure when you mix it with things, the same way pure water is no longer pure when you put anything else in it. The GK basically killed the sisters, tainted their blood with their oils, then slathered themselves in said blood/oil combination, completely negating the "pure" aspect of it and killing a bunch of innocents in the process. But that doesn't matter, because the GK and Inqusition killed a couple billion innocent people because they might learn about daemons.

This is the same problem I see with almost all the Ward hate. A chronic lack of imagination coupled with bizarre assumptions. I'm going to leave Draigo aside at the moment, but let me just say you're wrong on a whole bunch of stuff. Start another thread if you want.

Regards to the Bloodtide:

Grey Knights are incorruptible. You assume this means they cannot be affected by any Chaos powers, and this is incorrect.

Their Aegis and Hexagrammic wards offer a measure of protection. You assume that this provides adequate protection against all Chaos powers, and this is incorrect.

Really? Because the codex says that the Aegis bound with the greatest mystical and psychic defenses known to the Imperium of Man.

Incorruptible is an absolute word. There's no measure of incorruptiblilty, you're either incorruptible or you aren't. Where have other GK been affected by physical powers?

Bizzare assumptions how? And I don't like filling plotholes with bullsnits, I like things that make sense. The gravity of both Draigo defeating Mortarion in single combat and the Bloodtide Returns incident require far more information than what is given. I can imagine a glorious battle between Draigo and Mortarion, with Mortarion killing the former CM of the GK and Draigo losing his fudge and hacking away at Mortarion with the fury of a hundred men.

I can also imagine the Ka'jagga'nath, second, if not equal to Doombreed in power, being released form his prison, and as his corporeal form explodes out from the chamber, a tidal wave of blood and gore washes through the building, submersing those within the building in daemon blood of the most pure kind. Those who are even touched by the boiling, daemonic fluid are instantly warped beyond recognition, becoming unto Bloodletters in an instant and having the unending thirst for blood and death. They blast out into the streets, pouring over each other as the tide of gore continues to flood out of the building thorugh the windows and doors onto the street, bystanders looking confused, then frightful, then screaming with abject terror as they are slaughtered where they stand, transformed into hideous monsters, or dragged into the building to be sacrificed for Khorne. The Sisters of Battle ride into battle, but it is too little too late. Many have been tainted by the power of Ka'jagga'nath, and the Sisters of Battle can do no more than stave off the daemons. They are fighting a losing battle, and they know it. As the battle wears on, the ranks of the Sisters grow thin, and although their faith is without equal, the supreme evil that is Ka'jagga'nath has twisted the surroundings to such a degree that they are no longer sure they can obtain reinforcements. As they pray to the emperor one final time, the Grey Knights teleport in, seemingly in answer to the prayers of the Sisters. The Grey Knights instantly recognize Ka'jagga'nath, and as they progress further and further into the horde of the purest bloodlust, they realize that even their most blessed armor may not be enough to wholly prevent their physical corruption. The Grey Knights make a tactical relocation to forward base established by the Sisters of Battle.

Again and again, the Sisters and the Grey Knights fight against the Bloodtide, each time testing new blessings and new sacred oils against the abominations, with no avail. The Grey Knights begin to take losses, and they are forced again to retreat. This time, however, they notice something different; every drop of spilled Sister blood boils and aersolizes as it contacts daemons or the bloodtide, causing an intense and adverse reaction by any daemons who are in contact with it, as if the acid of the cruelest Dark Eldar Haemonculus was being inhaled. The Grey Knights soon realize that this is the key to defeating the Bloodtide. As they approach the few remaining Sisters of Battle, they tell the Sisters of their discovery. The Sisters go willingly, and with a mighty salute of "For the Emperor!" they allow the Grey Knights to spill their blood so that the world of Van Horne may survive. The Grey Knights coat themselves in the pure blood of the Sisters of Battle over top their already outrageous amounts of holy and blessed oils. The resulting combination works exactly as the Grey Knights expected it to, allowing them to carve a path of holy destruction through the daemonic ranks straight to Ka'jagganath, still sitting atop his throne of blood carved out of the broken statue of the Emperor. Ordan, the Champion of the fourth brotherhood, and three of the most powerful Librarians of the Fourth Brotherhood, lead the charge into the Basilica, sweeping aside his floundering minions with ease as they baulk upon contacting the blood of the mighty and pure Sisters of Battle, giving the Grey Knights ample time to cut them down. Ka'jagga'nath lazily stands up, and bellows such a roar that a lesser man would have been flayed alive. Ordan bellows out his own challenge to the behemoth and charges, plunging his blood coated halberd straight through Ka'jagga'nath. Ka'jagga'nath grabs Ordan, lifts him up, and tears out the halberd. As Ordan is torn in two by the Bloodthirster, the Grey Knights, who now surrounded Ka'jagga'nath, opened fire with every weapon they had, obliterating the physical form of the daemon, and as they do so, they banish Ka'jagga'nath back into the warp, the psychic backlash annihilating both the tainted humans and the daemons and sucking in the bloodtide completely, leaving a shattered Bascilica and ruined Van Horne in it wake.

The Grey Knights returned to Titan, adding those Sisters of Battle who gave up their blood and the the fallen Grey Knights to the Halls of Remeberance and a statue of Ordan to the Hall of Champions.

Later, Inquisitors from the Ordo Malleus are dispatched to several other worlds to check on the status of several nearly-forgotten prisons.

Thats how I imagine it happened, or something along those lines.

Just because Mat didn't have the forsight to see the potential problems with his writing that passage doesn't mean it isn't garbage.

Come up with a fluffy explaination instead of hating on Mat(who may not have even written that part, codices are a collaborative effort)

The problem is, when some dude on DakkaDakka can write a better, more believable story, then something's wrong.

thats about par for GW, nothing to do with Ward or the GK codex.

I think people just got annoyed that GKs got changed slightly and/or that they became fairly competitive. Gk armies are not dominating the tournament scene as much as all the hype would have you believe.They are performing only about average considering the large numbers of players.

@Unit: Thanks

@Grey:I agree. I think the hype has died down a bit, but I actually really like the rules. There's a lot of unique wargear, the characters have some pretty interesting special rules and a few can mess with FOC charts, etc. The only thing I think is subpar is the fluff. Fluff that Ward, as far as we know, may or may not have written. I wouldn't be surprised if Ward just had oversight and wrote most of the rules. Though that means he Ok'd the fluff, which still isn't ok.

Unit1126PLL wrote:The problem is, when some dude on DakkaDakka can write a better, more believable story, then something's wrong.

He can't. The entire point of the Bloodtide story was, like Draigo and Mortarion, to be a short narrative-empty snippet to give our imaginations something to chew on. It deliberately gives us only the bare bones of the story so we can flesh out the rest however we like, and have debates about it. McNinja's story doesn't let us do that, doesn't make sense (Sororitas blood is acid to daemons? WTF?) and doesn't even address all the issues commonly complained about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, if you don't like using your imagination, thats fine. You're probably the type of reader that really likes 'mirror scenes' in novels, where the main character looks into a mirror and studies his features intently in order to give the author a chance to destroy any chance we had of imagining the character ourselves.

But that doesn't mean it's bad. It's only bad when the events make no sense, are not internally consistent or the characters act out-of-character with no explanation. None of which happens in the bloodtide!

I still disagree. Why would they do that? Why does that make sense? That's like someone writing a novel leaving out bits and pieces and saying "yeah, I wanted my fans to fill in the blanks with their imaginations." This isn't a game of mad-lib, its is fluff in a book. Someone has already written it. If you're arguing that it makes sense, tell us what you're thinking, please don't just keep saying "it's supposed to be vague" then leaving out why it isn't vague to you, because it's vague as to me, and I don't like that.

Oh, and SoB blood is clearly something to daemons, because it was the talisman of purity the GK so desperately needed.

EDIT: Just saw your Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do. Granted, I used to use it a lot more, but that doesn't change much. Also, no I don't like mirror scenes for the exact reasons you've described, the same way I don't like when comic characters (like, say, garfield) are given voices that don't match the unique voice I created for them. Let's just say the Bill Murray was not my voice for Garfield.

Bloodtide is not internally consistent. Or rather, the GK codex is not. One of the two. Either way, I still don't know why the incorruptible and best-defense-against-mystical-and-psychic-attacks-in-the-IoM GK needed a talisman of purity, I still don't know what transpired between the GK and the Sisters before they were put to the sword, and I still don't know why the prison of the second most powerful bloodthirster ever was left unguarded and in a place where it could be broken open by a slight industrial accident. If you're going to write a story, write a story. If you're not, then don't. It confuses and pisses people off.

Exactly. The problem isn't a lack of imagination.

Rather, it's a lack of willing-to-gloss-over-nonsense.

I can fill in blanks, but trying to understand people who don't act at all like one would expect, or trying to fill in the blanks of a world that's not even internally consistent, has nothing to do with imagination.

McNinja wrote:I still disagree. Why would they do that? Why does that make sense? That's like someone writing a novel leaving out bits and pieces and saying "yeah, I wanted my fans to fill in the blanks with their imaginations."

A good author knows when to do exactly that! If you spend too much time describing things for people you start to bore the reader. I know I start to skip over whole sections of books banging on about how grimy and cluttered a city is, or long drawn out blow-by-blow accounts of battles. Inside I'm thinking "yeah yeah, I get it, now get to the point already!"

it's vague as to me, and I don't like that.

You seem upset because you don't think the Bloodtide should affect the GK, or if it does affect them then it should be countered by the Aegis and their Hexagrammic wards. The reason this assumption is wrong is because the Aegis and the Hexagrammic wards are very specific. They defend the Grey Knights against direct targetting by enemy psykers, and perhaps some spells. Maybe from some kinds of daemonic posession.

But it doesn't protect them against anything else. It won't protect them from fire conjured by Tzeench, or Plagues conjured by Nurgle, or weapons wielded by Bloodletters, or what-have-you. It also obviously doesn't protect against the Bloodtide. The bloodtide doesn't have to be a psychic attack, it could be more like plastic getting too close to molten steel: It just melts it. Or it could be like a noise that blasts directly into the brain. It's a warp-spawned power of destruction, it could work like ANYTHING or do ANYTHING. We just don't know, and it would be a mistake on the part of an author to try too hard to explain it.

Oh, and SoB blood is clearly something to daemons, because it was the talisman of purity the GK so desperately needed.

No, it doesn't do squat to anything. It's like ground unicorn horns, or mermaids tears or some stuff. It's an ingredient, a part of a ward, and only the whole will do anything. I like cake, and eggs are an ingredient of cake, but that doesn't mean I like eggs. Similarly, the ward of purity protects from the Bloodtide. The Sororitas blood is an ingredient of that ward, but that doesn't mean the Sororitas blood will protect from the Bloodtide.